Japan

About the scout and map size part, it does feel like an exploit. Maybe the way to do would be to:
  • make the UA apply to non-recon units only, or even restrict to specific military branches only (like the "Melee, Mounted, Gun and Armor" restriction of the Dojo promotion).
  • further increase the yields to make up for the unit restriction.
Also:
  • adjust the formula from "(FormerLevel - 1)² * iLevelUpYield" to "(FormerLevel)² * iLevelUpYield" for the player only. Meaning we get to play with an UA closer to the one that is being balanced for the AI.

Yeah, I mean if you are playing a smaller map or are blocked by water, it could really suck.

It's 'simple' as it is now, so your suggestion might be good. I can think of some advanced suggestions, but something to plug in like what you said seems to make sense.

The thing is, how soon can you realistically gain combat experience? Monte can continue to eat barbs because he's always going to get gains, but Japan is gonna stop at level 2... and then you have to war a person or a city state. That's a pretty high bar to continue to get gains and why the scouting 'bonus' seems to help. I guess if you are playing a smaller map, you can just fight the dude who is right next to you. It won't work for a larger map, but I am also not a huge fan of the benefit I get from enjoying larger maps. It should be something more consistent, imo.

This is probably the most interesting unique, to me, but it's gonna be hard to balance, if it can be balanced at all. Flat per hit experience gains would be more consistent, but it loses the desire to keep all of these super vet units so they can pop these huge gains on level. Gaining a level has never been more fun.

Last suggestion is they could implement your 'also' suggestion but leave scouting gains except balance them based on map size. So raise on level gains, give the player a bonus on level (assuming that's what you're saying?) and if you assume a huge map is 2x (random number, no idea what it really is) a standard map, then cut the scouting gains by 1/2.
 
  • make the UA apply to non-recon units only, or even restrict to specific military branches only (like the "Melee, Mounted, Gun and Armor" restriction of the Dojo promotion).

  • further increase the yields to make up for the unit restriction.
Please no. Aren't their already enough civs that only buff melee units? Pre-Samurai, my force was primarily skirmishers, if the UA doesn't affect ranged units (or sea units) it becomes so much less flexible.

I think you guys are focusing too much on scouts. On almost any map your scout can reach level 3 pretty easily, thats 25 :c5culture::c5science: very early on. If you get more, great, but Japan is a viable civ without getting cheesy amounts of yields from scouts. If you do get some really yields from scout XP, its just a bonus

You can get a lot of high leveled units very quickly. I think its essential to attack a CS early on, and after that try to keep moving between different AI enemies. Each turn your units should either attack, heal, or move closer to a target.
 
Except some people cant enjoyably play Japan on their prefered map or pace setting because getting level 6 and 7 scout by 2nd tech is completely possible.
 
Please no. Aren't their already enough civs that only buff melee units? Pre-Samurai, my force was primarily skirmishers, if the UA doesn't affect ranged units (or sea units) it becomes so much less flexible.

I think you guys are focusing too much on scouts. On almost any map your scout can reach level 3 pretty easily, thats 25 :c5culture::c5science: very early on. If you get more, great, but Japan is a viable civ without getting cheesy amounts of yields from scouts. If you do get some really yields from scout XP, its just a bonus

You can get a lot of high leveled units very quickly. I think its essential to attack a CS early on, and after that try to keep moving between different AI enemies. Each turn your units should either attack, heal, or move closer to a target.

I agree about allowing the UA to be flexible enough to include ranged/sea/air units as well, that restriction was in case people really prefer Japan to be a melee-combat oriented civ. Personally, I'd prefer it to be simply a non-recon restriction.

You mean level 4, as level 2 gives you 0 :c5culture:/:c5science:, something I find unfun when leveling my units.

And yes, Japan is viable without relying on scouts, but the whole point of moving the "yields on leveling" from the Dojo to the UA was to give Japan a good source of early yields, so the civ can reach Medieval at a good pace even against civs with science bonuses (like Korea, hence why the former comparison with their specialists). Also remember that this move removed the former :c5faith: Faith yields on leveling and the "Gain GWAM points in your :c5capital: Capital whenever a Great General or Admiral is born" from Japan; if the civ is giving up those two bonuses, then this extra culture and science should feel strong on its own, not just a bonus reliant on cheesy moves.

Overall, my impression is that the UA is being balanced too much around scouts (which makes the UA's performance way too variable across map types and speed) and the AI's performance (which benefits exponentially with its bonus for leveling and unit creation), and that these two factors are making the UA perform too inconsistently for the player. If anything, controlling these two factors with the non-recon restriction and the formula adjustment for the player could be a starting point to balance this UA.
 
Okay I got got a start with 2 map ruins and its just ridiculous. Its far too much culture early on, I agree it shouldn't apply to scouts.
 
Somehow I cannot get myself interested in current Japan. I suppose that is because Japan is basically a warmonger, and the only thing not focused on war is the ability to block incoming trade routes, which I never liked. If I wanted to prevent a civ from sending trade routes to me, probably I want to be warring against it too.

Now, from the comments I realize that it's too dependent on map size and difficulty.
 
Also:
  • adjust the formula from "(FormerLevel - 1)² * iLevelUpYield" to "(FormerLevel)² * iLevelUpYield" for the player only. Meaning we get to play with an UA closer to the one that is being balanced for the AI.
I disagree with this. When playing settler difficulty, it should have no difference for this UA between player and AI.

However, I agree that Japan UA is not very efficient if you don't have the AI's XP bonus, and supply cap bonus.
Contrary to "yield on kill", "yield on XP" scale pretty bad with difficulty level. Any UA based on that which is balanced for the player would be OP for the deity AI.
Though I've not tested, but if the Japan deity AI is doing well, I'm sure the Japan settler AI is really bad compared to other civs.
 
I disagree with this. When playing settler difficulty, it should have no difference for this UA between player and AI.

However, I agree that Japan UA is not very efficient if you don't have the AI's XP bonus, and supply cap bonus.
Contrary to "yield on kill", "yield on XP" scale pretty bad with difficulty level. Any UA based on that which is balanced for the player would be OP for the deity AI.
Though I've not tested, but if the Japan deity AI is doing well, I'm sure the Japan settler AI is really bad compared to other civs.

AI Japan is likely aleady weaker than the player in Settler difficulty; Gazebo had toned down the exponential scaling of the UA shortly after the move, since Deity AI Japan was developing way faster than any other AI. Like, getting a 8 or 10 tech lead when everyone was still at Classical.

The thing is that, starting at difficulty 4 (Prince), as soon as the AI builds a Barracks, it gets benefits from training units as if it had a Barracks and an Armory. Basically, it's getting the benefits we are only expected to get at Medieval. And starting at Immortal, getting a barracks is pretty much like having an Armory and a Military Academy as well, a.k.a. benefits that we are only expected to have at Industrial.

That adjustment is a middle term, so we get benefits closer to those that a Prince AI Japan gets, and not being so exponentially underperforming compared to Immortal/Deity AI Japan. I don't know if a specific AI can be toned down based on difficulty, but that would help as well.
 
Organizing my thoughts about Japan's new UA (from Sep 7th patch), just for feedback. No particular issue so far that would require much attention.

For those that don't know the details of the UA, here are the related posts about the patch:

Japan - new UA: +1 Science and Faith (typo: is Culture and Faith) from Defense and Military Training Buildings. When a Great Admiral or Great General is born, receive Great Artist, Writer, and Musician Points in your Capital.
  • UB - regains Yields from leveling ability
  • Old UA was creating weird strategies, and scaled poorly at higher difficulties. The Trade Route idea, while interesting on paper, never really came into play (and was usually just frustrating for both sides). New UA is a blend of the prior one and a static buff on some buildings, giving Japan a reliable (small) steroid, a wartime steroid, and an incentive to focus on small, highly-trained armies.

The Dojo did not get the slot back, no. I'm monitoring it, as I want to make sure Japan isn't too synergistic and thus OP.

Fealty still has a lot going for it. Definitely stronger than previous Piety.

Industry is now a little better for tall empires than the other industrial branches, thus complimenting the policy branch system we've created:

Tradition, Statecraft, Industry -> 'taller' branches
Progress, Artistry, Rationalism -> 'thicker' branches
Authority, Fealty, Imperialism -> 'wider' branches

France keeps the GWAMs - they spawn for different reasons, and they're both culture/war hybrid civs, so I don't see the problem. Besides, they build very different armies, and have different goals - Japan is much more defensive, whereas France is much more offensive.

G

Details:
  • Defense buildings: Wall, Castle, Arsenal, Military Base
  • Military buildings: Barracks, Dojo, Military Academy
  • Yields on leveling formula: max {1, (Level-1)² * 4}
  • UA grants 50% of the required points for GWAM upon Great General or Admiral birth.
The return of GWAM on GG/GA birth is welcomed, and feels stronger than before due to a prior change in GWAM bulbing: they scale with the number of the related great works in the empire. Since Japan is a strong warmonger, it's feasible to adquire a great number of great works with the UA, guilds in the capital and conquests, then bulb your lategame GWAM (with help of GG/GA faith purchases; Authority and Imperialism remain solid trees for Japan) for massive yields. I once got 44 turns of Golden Age from a single Artist, with help of a golden age monopoly (buffed by Imperialism) and a conquered Chichen Itza.

The +1 :c5culture:/:c5faith: on military and defensive buildings isn't particularly strong on its own, but stacks with so many buffs to these buildings that the civ gets quite a lot of value for what it pays in production. Military buildings are already a high priority for Japan and already provide some science yields (plus Dojo's stats and abilities), so the +1 :c5culture:/:c5faith: is convenient enough for these.

The UA feels a bit underwhelming when it comes to defensive buildings, since these don't provide actual yields on their own, nor unit experience. For Japan to actually want to build them (outside wanting faith in Ancient/Classical to found a religion), the civ needs to stack a lot of extra buffs (Fealty's Nobility, Neuschwanstein, Defender of the Faith, Military-Industrial Complex); the +1 :c5culture:/:c5faith: alone isn't enough to justify them, as their priority doesn't increase by much compared to the new buildings of the respective era.

And, in that sense, Japan doesn't feel more defensive than France. Japan mostly prioritizes military infrastructure, rather than actual defenses, and the civ doesn't have bonuses that are specifically tailored for defense. Sometimes, you find less defensive civs having better city defenses than Japan due to a UB (e.g. Acropolis), UI (Feitoria, Chateau, Encampment), or simply because they had more immediate need for defenses against an aggressive neighbor.

This is notable when it comes to puppets. Japan has incentives for puppeting: the yields on leveling doesn't scale with the number of cities owned, and the extra GWAM are more valuable if your tourism penalty remains low. But puppets tend to neglect military and defensive buildings (except Dojo, probably because it's an UB), even if you stack all the said buffs to those buildings. As such, Japan may end having to choose between the +1 :c5culture:/:c5faith: and the GWAM+leveling, and the latter is currently more important. That leaves the +1 :c5culture:/:c5faith: as an early boost, rather than a constant benefit throughout the game.

As an early boost, it is working well, and synergizes perfectly with Goddess of Protection; Japan gets to focus on military benefits and pushes forward culture and religion in the process. Very efficient in terms of benefits from your production. I don't struggle to found a religion with this UA, and the civ is well positioned in terms of social policies advancement. It feels slow compared to many early faith uniques, but does its job well enough to net a religion.

About suggestions, if the civ has room for improvements, I'd consider only an adjustment to the yields on defensive buildings, as they require more incentives to be built by Japan than military buildings. Also, if the puppet AI logic can be tailored, check how it evaluates the buildings when it comes to buffs. It shouldn't take the Modern Era for an old puppet to decide to build a castle in an empire with Fealty, Neuschwanstein and yields from its UA.
 
I haven't tried the new Japan, but am happy with the changes for the most part. Sakoku had great historicity, but was very narrow in its usefulness/overt effect on gameplay.

At this point, the things that really make Japan feel unique and fun are now all on the dojo. I'm interested to hear from others how the game "feels" prior to medieval with this civ now, if it doesn't feel too much like a blank civ before the UB and UU?
 
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It doesn't feel bland because you have the UA + Goddess of Protection synergy to look up to. Barracks providing 2:c5science: 2:c5culture: 3:c5faith: for 110:c5production:, alongside the 15 XP, feels really good. Walls with 2:c5culture: 3:c5faith: for 110:c5production: are also good, not as stellar as the barracks, but already better than Monument + Shrine. (2:c5culture: 2:c5faith: for 130:c5production:).

And that means you're looking for fast early expansion to get a solid shot at a religion. Each city can be generating 8 :c5faith: with the pantheon + UA + shrine, and an additional 2:c5faith: from the Palace, placing you in a decent spot for the religious race.

The healing from the pantheon and the military infrastructure also means you can be more aggressive in your expansion, as you can defend yourself if opposed. I once had an early puppet survive against Napoleon's constant attacks, despite the puppet refusing to build walls (goddammit), thanks to its garrison healing fast and having a nearby city with a military infrastructure developed enough to send defenders. I had to neglect a few buildings on that city, but I didn't fell behind in development, thanks to the UA and the pantheon stacking on the same buildings.

The extra culture is also good enough to make up for a lack of early passive culture from Authority; even if you don't get enough barbarians to hunt, you should still develop well.
 
I think Japan has plenty of reasons to build defensive structures for the same reason everyone else does, to get more supply cap and crime reduction.

They just get a little extra on top which is fine.
 
It's just a small bonus. The real strength is the GP component, and they have a very powerful UB.
 
Hey there - I believe that there is either a tooltip issue with the Dojo or a bug in it, but I'm not sure which.

Buildings like the Amphitheatre or the Runestone are clear that when a unit is killed or a tile is pillage, then so much culture and production is generated in this city. So if you pillage a tile as Denmark, all your cities with Runestones get 5 Culture and 5 Production scaling with Era.

However, with the Dojo it is clear that only the city that produced the unit is getting a bonus getting any kind of bonus when you apply a promotion. The tooltip isn't clear that it's only the city that produced the unit, though.

The reason why I think it might be a bug instead of a tooltip issue is because promotions don't scale the same way other things do - you might be getting exponentially more yields per promotion, but it's also much more experience per level, and there's no scaling, and it's only affecting a single city. It's hard to do the math to make exact calculations, but I suspect that the Runestone is light years beyond the Dojo in providing yields when the Dojo is only affecting a single city.
 
Hey there - I believe that there is either a tooltip issue with the Dojo or a bug in it, but I'm not sure which.

Buildings like the Amphitheatre or the Runestone are clear that when a unit is killed or a tile is pillage, then so much culture and production is generated in this city. So if you pillage a tile as Denmark, all your cities with Runestones get 5 Culture and 5 Production scaling with Era.

However, with the Dojo it is clear that only the city that produced the unit is getting a bonus getting any kind of bonus when you apply a promotion. The tooltip isn't clear that it's only the city that produced the unit, though.

The reason why I think it might be a bug instead of a tooltip issue is because promotions don't scale the same way other things do - you might be getting exponentially more yields per promotion, but it's also much more experience per level, and there's no scaling, and it's only affecting a single city. It's hard to do the math to make exact calculations, but I suspect that the Runestone is light years beyond the Dojo in providing yields when the Dojo is only affecting a single city.
Japan is very strong now, and it's not a bug. The tooltip could be improved if players are getting this idea from it though.
 
Japan is very strong now, and it's not a bug. The tooltip could be improved if players are getting this idea from it though.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, an improvement to the tooltip would absolutely be a good thing. Should I GitHub it?
 
Okay - done. I hope I did it right. But if I didn't, I'll learn with time. :p
 
Just wanted to chime in on Japan's kit. I'm currently in the Atomic era playing Immortal/Standard/Standard and I am really enjoying Japan's playstyle and synergies.

The culture/faith from military/defensive buildings UA allowed me to go Authority and prioritize barracks/walls heavily early on and still found a religion as well as keep up in policies (grabbed goddess of protection, of course, along with defender of the faith reformation later on).

The synergy between the GWAM points from Great Generals/Admirals, the Dojo (science/culture upon promotion), and the Samurai (faster exp gain and general/admiral generation) is fantastic. I pretty much filled my military cap with Samurai with just a few token siege/ranged units for support and have hyper promoted infantry now that just run over the opposition. Getting highly promoted units was already a fun aspect of civ but seeing the science/culture gains along with it are the icing on the cake. The science/culture gain is never THAT crazy (I estimate it has probably given me an extra 5-10% science/culture throughout the game) but is still fun.

Going Authority->Fealty->Imperialism seems like the obvious choice as each is rife with synergies. Using faith to buy GG/GA essentially gives you 2.5 great people per purchase (1 great general or admiral + 0.5 artist + 0.5 writer + 0.5 musician). Certain wonders become more important as Japan (Brandenburg, Neuschwanstein, Pentagon) but not required.

I do think Japan is a slightly more defensive version of France. The synergy with goddess of protection and defender of the faith leans defensive as well as having access to a TON of great generals which means you can afford to plop down citadels wherever you please and still have great generals around for the combat bonus. Japan can fully utilize its kit while being a defensive meat grinder whereas France must capture cities to benefit fully from its kit (although admittedly, taking cities as Japan has its benefits as well). In any case, I found that I could be fighting wars on multiple fronts and the enemy would have a very hard time making progress against my defensive building cities along with citadels and highly promoted units benefiting from goddess of protection/defender of the faith.
 
Yes Japan is one of my favorite warmongering civs. I once stated a game with Japan and put every other wamongerers as AI (Mongols, Aztec, etc). It was so much fun. I eventually lost because my cities lacked production and therefore lacked infrastructure. And for some reason, I took artistry instead of fealty to get bonuses for great works. In the end, I think fealty would have worked better.
 
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