Japan's Kit

[crdvis16]

If anything, I'd say Japan's UA has anti synergy with Tradition, or at least anti synergy with wanting to work GA/GW/GM specialist slots. The more you utilize the UA and gain GA/GW/GM GPPs from GG/GA spawns the more your specialist slots become less able to produce those great people. Every time you get a general or admiral you increase the GPP needed to get your next artist/writer/musician, essentially making the GPP from working for slots less beneficial.

For instance, one could probably create a scenario where a Japan game went so well in terms of war, Hero Worship, and faith buying GG/GA that past the relative early game you could work every available GA/GW/GM slot in your tradition capital but those slots could never catch up to the ever increasing GPP cost for the next artist/writer/musician due to generals/admirals constantly increasing it. In practice, this doesn't probably happen until maybe late game but it does illustrate the anti synergy with Tradition's specialist working theme. If the generals/admirals gave free great people like Maya's UA without increasing GPP costs then this anti synergy wouldn't be present.

Not to say that Tradition isn't still a good choice, but that might have more to do with Tradition v Authority than Japan in particular?

Edit: also, some of the ideas sound cool in this thread. And I think Authority having a science issue is spot on.

 

[azum4roll]

White Tower is a unique Ironworks.

 

[azum4roll]

For instance, one could probably create a scenario where a Japan game went so well in terms of war, Hero Worship, and faith buying GG/GA that past the relative early game you could work every available GA/GW/GM slot in your tradition capital but those slots could never catch up to the ever increasing GPP cost for the next artist/writer/musician due to generals/admirals constantly increasing it. In practice, this doesn't probably happen until maybe late game but it does illustrate the anti synergy with Tradition's specialist working theme.

The GPP from specialists is still always useful in the capital as they contribute to spawning GWAM. The specialists in other cities basically won't give anything but yields, but it's ok - Tradition only gives bonus to capital anyway.

 

[crdvis16]

Yeah- a Tradition capital with the extra specialist slots and the bonuses to GPP generation typically outstrip other cities. Satellite cities might not ever spawn a GP.

I'm saying that Japan's UA in particular could actually make a Tradition capital's GPP generation pointless due to how it can constantly increase the GPP needed to spawn those artists/writers/musicians. That case is probably hard to pull off, but I believe even the more normal case of just spawning a typical number of generals/admirals works against making artists/writers/musicians through working slots. Hence why I'd call Japan's UA anti synergy with that part of Tradition.

 

[Anarcomu]

I'd argue here that getting early GPs normally become more important, since it "increase the value" of your next UA bonuses via more GPPs. It does fall off in the later stage of the game, but you could definitely rush it in the early game.

 

[crdvis16]

I think "increasing the GPP bonus of your UA" might not be the right way to think about it. What matters is generating the artists/writers/musicians.

Every time you spawn a general/admiral you increase the GPP needed for the next artist/writer/musician which essentially dilutes the strength of working specialists to generate those great people.

One way to test the thought is to take Japan's UA to an extreme: change it from "spawning a Great General or Admiral gives 50% GPP towards the next Artist/Writer/Musician" to "50,000% GPP towards the next Artist/Writer/Musician". In this example, spawning a single General would give you like 20 Artists/Writers/Musicians (I'm guessing 20 IDK the actual number) and for the rest of the game I don't think your specialist slots would ever be able to generate enough GPP to spawn the next artist/writer/musician- they would be hopelessly behind.

This is why I think Japan's UA has anti synergy with Tradition. Japan actually has some incentive to not work artist/writer/musician slots at all, at least not for the GPP as long as they are able to generate generals/admirals at a good clip.

 

[Legen]

Not really, you can think of Japan's UA as a potential 50% GPP cost reduction. If a civ generated 8 of a given cultural person, the cost for the next one is 2150 (base 150 + 250 increase per previous GP), which takes forever for a generic civ. With Japan's UA, it is potentially just a 1075 cost instead (about as if you priorly generated 4 of that GP) for your specialists to work towards. Japan would need to generate about 16 of that great person (costing 4150 GPP) to be in the same situation as that generic civ would.

My proposal of adding Great Engineers as an UA trigger, but lowering the GWAM points to 34%, could increase that GPP cost reduction to a potential 68%, further extending how long your cultural specialists stay relevant for GP generation. For instance, that 2150 cost for a generic civ would potentially be a 688 cost for Japan's specialists to work towards with that modified UA, which is just a bit over the cost after generating 2 previous GPs (150 + 2*250). I should revisit that proposal.

Note that Authority's capital can also reach the point of a cultural specialist from its guilds taking extremely long to generate another cultural person, that isn't exclusive to Tradition. The difference is that Tradition's extra cultural specialist is a 27% to 33% increase in base GPP generation (guilds having a base 3 GPP for writer, 5 GPP for musician, before specialist slots are filled), so it takes more births for a Tradition capital to reach that point. It is as if cultural GPs cost between 20% to 25% less GPP for Tradition, positioning it to make better use of Japan's UA as a GPP cost reduction in the long term than Authority.

White Tower is a unique Ironworks.

Yeah, I forgot that. I was remembering the White Tower from when it was a replacement of the National Intelligence Agency.

I love the idea of the Tatara but I think I'd still prefer it as an early Ironworks, maybe have it unlock at Metal Casting since that's close to Steel. I'd suggest a number of Great Musician slots only rather than the other two since I noticed I was able to fill Great writers and Artists fairly easily due to their guilds unlocking earlier. Plus National and World Wonders early on tend to have more slots for GW's and GA's. I'm not sure what theming bonus would work best, maybe stick with the science since it's a scientific discovery and the Ironworks already gets a production boost anyways. I reckon +5 iron instead of +2 would be good too. Maybe it could even incorporate a faith and or cultural yield as a kind of mystical element to it? I'm just spit balling here though so I've no idea how hard it would be to code or if it would mess up other aspects of the game having it come earlier

One thing about this, the Japan proposals for the 4UC integration were trying to address the issue of Japan generating cultural great people before the civ unlocked buildings with GW slots. The unique Ironworks (or whatever it ends being) doesn't need to address that if you can make a separate proposal for that. For instance:
----
Proposal

• Move the Art/Artifact slot from Castle to Monument.
• Move the Music slot from Temple to Shrine.
• Add a Writing slot to the Council.

----
That would address Japan's GW slot issue and free your unique Ironworks to focus on something else. It also helps the Maya, and covers some niche situations for early warmongers (i.e. conquer a Tradition neighbor with great works before you have slots to store them). I want to propose something along these lines next Congress.

You'll also want some unique/global effect for this Ironworks, like you see in the Assyrian Royal Library, or in the proposed E-temenanki for Babylon. Here's my attempt for this unique Ironworks, assuming the above GW slot proposal (or something equivalent):

----
Engineer-based design:

- UA change: Now also triggers on Great Engineer birth, but GWAM progress is lowered to 34%. +1 Culture and Faith to Engineer specialists, instead of Defense buildings.

Tatara (replaces Ironworks, takes the Kabuki slot as Japan's 2nd UB)
Unlocked at Iron Working (from Machinery)
Production cost scales with number of Cities
5 Iron (from 2)
10 Production, +5 Culture and 5 Faith
1 Engineer slot
+2 Culture and +2 Faith to Manufactories in the Empire.
When a Great Engineer is born in the Empire, gain Science equal to 100% of your Culture and Faith per turn as an instant yield. (global version of the Kabuki's Musician ability, the yields and GP choices can be easily changed with database values, but the global nature requires DLL changes)
25 Science whenever a building is constructed in this city, scaling with Era. (baseline Ironworks ability, no changes)
----

 

[detroitrex]

what if we just chuck in the torii (1)as either a monument replacer or just simply a new bonus building for japan, and (2) give it one of each slot?

 

[Legen]

what if we just chuck in the torii (1)as either a monument replacer or just simply a new bonus building for japan, and (2) give it one of each slot?

On point (2), at the moment, the code only allows a building to have one type of great work slot; the idea of the UB unlocking three cheap buildings with each a different slot type is due to that.

You can chain free buildings to make it spawn all types of great work slots. For instance:

----
Hypothetical UB
1 Writing slot
Free <<building 1>>

<<building 1>>
1 Art/Artifact slot
Free <<building 2>>

<<building 2>
1 Music slot
----

If you added these, you'd get the three buildings at once when you complete the UB. I can't say I like this design, though.

On point (1), it could be a Shrine. There's no unique Shrine, and the one that could have been added in the 4UC integration (Carthage's Tophet) was changed to something else. Meanwhile, there's already the Ethiopian Stele as an unique Monument. However, I don't think that the enthusiasm for the Torii proposals were only about giving Japan a way to spend GWAM without needing great work slots; they also had the promise of giving Japan a stronger scaling out of your "great works".

To fulfill that, the Torii needed to account for three factors:

1. It has to count towards the scaling of bulbing Great Writers/Artists/Musicians, just like regular great works do;
2. Its yields have to scale based on both how great works scale, and how improvements scale (since you need to allocate a citizen to work it, unlike great works);
3. Its scaling has to account for World/National Wonders providing stronger theming bonuses than regular cultural buildings (e.g. Uffizi vs Museum), or some of your Torii will be worse than regular great works.

Otherwise, you end with regular great works being better than the Torii, and get more out of your GWAM with a simple UB that has a "+yields to great works", like the Korean Seowon.

 

[pineappledan]

Adding a new building with new GW slots for 1 civ will break the great works management screen. At minimum such a new set of building classes would require new UI work, and the end result would probably be that players will always see the Japan UBs in that screen regardless of what civ they are playing as.

I like the Torii GPTI suggestion best because it addresses Japan’s GW slot issue for early GWAMs without adding new GW slots.

I see no problem with having a tatara as an ancient forge replacement. Lots of unique buildings unlock at times slightly dislocated from their real time period. It’s far less of a stretch than the current Ottoman siege foundry.

What I do take issue with is giving Japan more iron. Japan doesn’t have much good iron and that’s specifically why these technologies like the tatara came to be. Giving Japan more iron overall makes them feel less like Japan, who had to work with limited resources, and instead allows them to blow past those limitations. The timing being discussed here is strange too. Ironworks is behind Samurai so it doesn’t assist Japan in making a longsword push.

Spoiler “My suggestion for a Japan rework” :

UA: Shogunate
50% GWAMs from GGeneral/Admiral birth
All units fight well damaged (vanilla ability)

UU1 Samurai (longsword):
Add bushido promotion that morphs into 8 virtues
Base bushido promotion has the 10 hp on kill; the virtues have it and the add small extra bonus
All bushido promotions lose fight well damaged. (Moved to UA)

UU2: Satsuma (cruiser)
900 production
43 CS, 60 RCS (+3 CS, +5 RCS)
4 Moves
250 GAP on construction
Kantai Kessen - gain Great Admiral Points on kills


UB: Tatara (forge)
Same requirements/cost as forge
1
1 engineer slot
Same bonuses to improvements and resources as base forge
Instant when units built in this city earn XP from combat (moved from dojo)
+25% towards units that require strategic resources (local form of bonus from hexxon refinery wonder)

UI - Torii
Unique GPTI Built by GWAMs, buildable on land
6 1
+1 for each adjacent mountain and natural wonder
Tech yields that keep up theming bonuses (TBD)
Gives scaling of bulbs for GWAMs. Scaling amount is equal to 1/2 of the scaling given for individual great works and 1/4 of the scaling from each theme.

Spoiler “my reasoning” :

This rework preserves some of the best parts of Japan’s existing kit while doing away with its most controversial parts

- Removes a blank and uninteresting yields on buildings bonus from UA
- Unstacks 2 components on steel, so Japan doesn’t have an overdetermined tech path
- Unstacks the unique armory from the Polish barbican (but stacks with ottoman siege foundry)
- Solves the early GW slot issue without disrupting the Great Works UI
- Neat design symmetry with Celts’ oppidum built by GEMSG
- Leaves the existing samurai/Dojo power spike intact by reshuffling combat and yield bonuses
- Removes a GP expend bonus, a bonus type that is proving itself to be a design crutch (*cough* Sweden *cough*)
- Removes the ITR End bonus, keeping a little more daylight between Japan and the Ottomans

 

[azum4roll]

The current Bushido is "Fight Better Damaged" though.

Tech yields that keep up theming bonuses (TBD)

My proposal back then should have appropriate yields already. It may look crazy but that's how strong great works are.

 

[pineappledan]

The current Bushido is "Fight Better Damaged" though

Current bushido:
Given by dojo
Fights well damaged, 10 hp on kills, 1 of 8 random bonuses

New bushido:
Unique promotion for Samurai
10 hp on kills, 1 of 8 random bonuses

UA has fights well damaged
Between UA and moving the current dojo promotion onto samurai directly, the samurai is identical

My proposal back then should have appropriate yields already.

My impression was it was overtuned, and was focused on keeping up with the most powerful themes

 

[azum4roll]

and was focused on keeping up with the most powerful themes

Nah it was only based on Amphitheater, Museum, and Broadcast Tower at the time they're unlocked. The weakest theme of each type.

 

[Legen]

I like the Torii GPTI suggestion best because it addresses Japan’s GW slot issue for early GWAMs without adding new GW slots.

I've warmed up to the Torii after learning more about Kagura rituals, as they give the Torii a strong tie to cultural great people. They often feature dances based on myths from the Kojiki, and were the origin for new genres of music, such as Gagaku. It makes a lot of sense for Japanese GWAM to place major shrines (Torii) all around Japan.

What I do take issue with is giving Japan more iron. Japan doesn’t have much good iron and that’s specifically why these technologies like the tatara came to be. Giving Japan more iron overall makes them feel less like Japan, who had to work with limited resources, and instead allows them to blow past those limitations. The timing being discussed here is strange too. Ironworks is behind Samurai so it doesn’t assist Japan in making a longsword push.

The issue is, the only ways in game (by Medieval Era) to deal with iron scarcity are through city states, trade and conquest. Historically, Japan didn't rely on any of these to obtain iron; they invented an efficient way to extract from ironsand, which was abundant in their own lands and largely untapped by any other civilization. If the tatara isn't giving iron directly, then we need some way to make Japan obtain iron by itself, without relying on any of the three mentioned ways.

One option is to mimic their extraction of the raw materials used in the tatara process: soft pine charcoal (forest) and ironsand (commonly found near mountains and hillsides). We could add that element to the Torii, given that some proposals wanted to add an adjacency bonus with mountains to it, and that the tatara itself was strongly tied to Shinto beliefs and practices.

My impression was it was overtuned, and was focused on keeping up with the most powerful themes

Nah it was only based on Amphitheater, Museum, and Broadcast Tower at the time they're unlocked. The weakest theme of each type.

Agree with azum4roll, but the Torii has to account for reallocating a citizen away from an improvement (or specialist slot) to work on this pseudo great work. If the Torii's yields scale only a bit better than a great work, then the Torii may end at a net negative compared to just creating a regular great work and having the citizen work on something else.

Here's how I see the Torii working with all of this in mind:

----
UA
+3 Great Musician Points in the Capital
50% GWAM progress on GG/GA birth

UI: Torii
Unique GPTI Built by GWAMs, buildable on land
5 3 4
+1 Iron if adjacent to a Mountain or Hill tile
Boosts the bulb effect of Great Writers (+3%), Artists (+10%) and Musicians (1/3 of a turn).
Civilian Units gain the Kagura promotion (add an utility effect, like bonus movement on Hill tiles) upon entering the Torii tile.

Tech scaling (strictly great work + holy site scaling):

• Drama and Poetry (Amphitheater): 4 3
• Architecture (Gallery): 1
• Acoustics (Opera House, 4 on holy site): 1, 4
• Archaeology (Museum, 4 on holy site): 7 3
• Radio (Broadcast Tower, 4 on holy site at Flight): 4 12 5
• Atomic Theory (Stadium): 4

Receives yields from the reformation national wonder of Founder beliefs, as if it were a Holy Site (e.g. +5 from Hero Worship's NW, or +5 from Council of Elders' NW).
----

Reasoning:

• The Great Musician Points on UA gives a consistent and predictable Torii in the early game, which eases balancing the Torii's early game impact, and doesn't pigeonhole Japan to a specific tech or pantheon (like the current UA does).
• Mountain/Hill adjacency on an UGPTI gives Japan an unique and historical way to pursue new sources of iron.
• GWAM bulb scaling per individual Torii is about the same to creating one regular GW; Writers gain +3% per great work of any type, Artists gain +20% per filled theme of any type (most require 2 GWs), and Musicians gain1 turn per work of Music. There's no reason to give subpar scaling.
• Tech scaling uses the yield scaling of great works, and adds the Holy Site scaling to account for the need to reallocate a citizen. The Holy Site scaling is added as example of how to ensure the Torii's scaling is net positive relative to regular improvements + regular great work.
• GPTIs also gain yields from a building (e.g. Factory for Manufactories), with Holy Sites gaining from reformation NWs, so that's what this version of the Torii gets. Reformation NWs are particularly interesting in that they add a customization element to the Torii.
• The Kagura promotion on citizens is added as a flavor element, as it explains why the Torii is thematically tied to GWAMs. What the promotion provides is not particularly important.

 

[azum4roll]

Why Stadium? % tourism to great works is balanced out by % of culture on terrain converted to tourism which you already get on Interpretive Center.

I don't think the yields should strictly follow great works + holy site. That's a considerably rarer improvement than Torii, and the reformation buildings will have to list Torii in addition to Holy Site.

I grouped Architecture and Acoustics and added a culture on top so that one tech boost doesn't look underwhelming.

These were the numbers I posted in my proposal for reference:

UB2 - Kabuki changed to UI - Torii
Can be built by Great Writer, Great Artist, and Great Musician
Can be built on resources and connects them
Removes features (Jungle, Forest, Marsh)
+5 +1 +3
+1 +1 +1 for every adjacent Mountain

Drama and Poetry: +3 +2
Theology: +1 +1 +1
Acoustics: +1 +2
Archaeology: +2 +4
Radio: +5 +5 +1 +9

Civil Society: +4
Five-Year Plan: +3
Military-Industrial Complex: +3
New Deal: +6

Base yield choices:
Each Great Work gives +3 +2 , which means you're trading 1 2 for 2 1 1 plus whatever yields the tile has per Torii placed. Not a bad deal, especially when placed beside mountains.

Tech boost choices:
Drama and Poetry: 2 Great Works of Writing themed in an Amphitheater give an extra 6 4 . Any other themes are going to be better than this, but you can safely leave Amphitheaters unthemed and convert those would-be Great Works into Torii instead, at least for now.

Theology: This is around the time you unlock your second policy tree. You'll unlock the Heritage policy on the next tech tier which gives an extra 2 2 to an Amphitheater theme, but as a unique component the yields can come earlier and better.

Acoustics: Both Gallery and Opera House give +1 to each Great Work. This tech boost gives an extra on top.

Archaeology: Each set of Museum Great Art is 13 9 on top of the yields from individual Great Works (3 5 ). The tech boost makes Torii yields (12 2 12 ) 2.5 2 2.5 better than Museum-themed Great Arts, and will also obsolete weaker wonder themes (like Parthenon and Notre Dame).

Radio: Each set of Broadcast Tower Great Music is 10 21 21 on top of the yields from individual Great Works (3 7 ). The tech boost makes Torii yields (5 17 3 21 ) 3.5 3 3.5 better than Broadcast Tower-themed Great Music. Great Work of Music being considerably rarer than Arts/Artifact and GWAM bulbs being weaker for not making as many Great Works cancel out each other in the consideration.

 

[pineappledan]

If the tatara isn't giving iron directly, then we need some way to make Japan obtain iron by itself, without relying on any of the three mentioned ways.

No, it doesn't need to do any of that.

The point of civ designs is not to design away every possible limitation on a kit. The Japanese do not need a way to break past strategic resource limitations, and are far better positioned than other civs like Indonesia or Rome in that respect. Much of Japan's history has been shaped by the need for more strategic resources, both in the medieval and modern periods. Giving a +25% production bonus to units that require resources, as I proposed for the Tatara, is more than adequate for showcasing the ingenuity of Japanese people in overcoming resource limitations without conjuring up extra resources.

The Kagura promotion on citizens is added as a flavor element, as it explains why the Torii is thematically tied to GWAMs. What the promotion provides is not particularly important. [...]Mountain/Hill adjacency on an UGPTI gives Japan an unique and historical way to pursue new sources of iron.
[...]The Great Musician Points on UA gives a consistent and predictable Torii in the early game

Completely unnecessary bits of overdesign, in my opinion.
In addition to being extra code, I don't see these contributing much to the overall flavour or historicity of the torii in real game terms, relative to the ability to use GWAMs to plant great person tile improvements. That alone is the focus; piling more things on weakens its impact by making the component convoluted.

GWAM bulb scaling per individual Torii is about the same to creating one regular GW; Writers gain +3% per great work of any type, Artists gain +20% per filled theme of any type (most require 2 GWs), and Musicians gain1 turn per work of Music. There's no reason to give subpar scaling.

The bulb scaling you proposed looks good to me.

These were the numbers I posted in my proposal for reference:

The yield scaling you proposed looks good to me. I remember it being more aggressive.
I should point out these scaling numbers seem to ignore the culture -> tourism converters on things like Hotels for tile improvements, but perhaps we can consider that extra tourism part of the perks of this UGPTI

 

[Legen]

Much of Japan's history has been shaped by the need for more strategic resources, both in the medieval and modern periods.

Not in pre-industrial times. There are historical reports from merchants in other countries, both European and Asian, pointing out that the prices of iron in Japan was not higher than the prices elsewhere, indicating that iron was not scarce there by Medieval standards. Japan did not have the need to pursue iron outside their home islands to satisfy their demand for it, and the Tatara was an important reason for that; it allowed the country to tap into an alternative source that nobody else could make good use of.

In fact, the reason why Japan could choose to isolate itself when they so wished was because they could satisfy their own internal demand, with practically no need for external trade, conquest of new lands, or colonization. The idea of Japan being starved for natural resources only makes sense once Japan begins to industrialize, as the needs of the larger industrial scale outpaced the Tatara system's capabilities, and would later required resources they could not obtain natively (notably oil).

In addition to being extra code

It doesn't require new code, we can do it with database changes only (UnitFreePromotion table).

I don't think the yields should strictly follow great works + holy site. That's a considerably rarer improvement than Torii, and the reformation buildings will have to list Torii in addition to Holy Site.

The Holy Site is a straightforward example because it provides the same three yields as the Torii (culture, tourism, faith) and has some tech overlaps (Acoustics and Archaeology). The scaling isn't much different if we use the Academy (+12 science from techs, +4 from Research Lab) as reference, which is very close to Holy Sites (+12 from techs, +5 from reformation wonders). It gets much higher if we use Towns (+13 from techs, +8 from railroad, +8 from Industrial Era TR and +2 from Stock Exchange) as reference, counting the road/railroad/TR bonus.

Manufactories scale less than the rest, for some reason (+9 from techs, +2 from Factory), similar scaling to a regular improvement; a Camp can gain +5 from techs (Guilds, Gunpowder, Rifling, Refrigeration), +4 from buildings (Smokehouse, University/Workshop, Zoo), and has an adjacency bonus (+1 to +3). If I were to use the Manufactory as reference, the Torii would not scale better than a regular improvement + GW.

Why Stadium? % tourism to great works is balanced out by % of culture on terrain converted to tourism which you already get on Interpretive Center.

I should point out these scaling numbers seem to ignore the culture -> tourism converters on things like Hotels for tile improvements, but perhaps we can consider that extra tourism part of the perks of this UGPTI

The Hotel gives a bonus to GW tourism (which doesn't affect the Torii), partially offsetting the culture-to-tourism conversion. The Stadium itself doesn't convert culture to tourism, unlike Hotels. The Interpretive Center is an entire era later, and its conversion is applicable only in one city; it is not a replacement for the Stadium's effect.

Though checking now, the culture conversion from the Hotel (25%) ends being around +5, which is close to the tourism the Hotel and Stadium together grant to regular GWs. The Torii could indeed lose the Stadium tech scaling.

 

[pineappledan]

The Great Musician Points on UA gives a consistent and predictable Torii in the early game, which eases balancing the Torii's early game impact

Japan already has a guaranteed great writer from Heroic Epic. If players want more consistent, predictable early game Torii then they can adopt Tradition.
They already have an extra source of GMusicians; they don't need 2 separate extra sources.

It doesn't require new code, we can do it with database changes only (UnitFreePromotion table).

I was referring to your suggestion of adding an iron resource underneath a GPTI, but only if adjacent to a mountain.
Both the extra promotion and the resource idea are needlessly convoluted, but one is also new code.

I don't understand why you want to make a Ducal Stable knock-off anyways? The bonus production modifier to strategics units is a powerful and underused effect that would fit well on japan, since both its UUs require strategics, and it doesn't have unnecessary side-effects like inflating strategic monopolies.

 

[azum4roll]

The Holy Site is a straightforward example because it provides the same three yields as the Torii (culture, tourism, faith) and has some tech overlaps (Acoustics and Archaeology). The scaling isn't much different if we use the Academy (+12 science from techs, +4 from Research Lab) as reference, which is very close to Holy Sites (+12 from techs, +5 from reformation wonders). It gets much higher if we use Towns (+13 from techs, +8 from railroad, +8 from Industrial Era TR and +2 from Stock Exchange) as reference, counting the road/railroad/TR bonus.

Manufactories scale less than the rest, for some reason (+9 from techs, +2 from Factory), similar scaling to a regular improvement; a Camp can gain +5 from techs (Guilds, Gunpowder, Rifling, Refrigeration), +4 from buildings (Smokehouse, University/Workshop, Zoo), and has an adjacency bonus (+1 to +3). If I were to use the Manufactory as reference, the Torii would not scale better than a regular improvement + GW.

We want to scale it exactly like a regular UI + GW, as the citizen would be normally working another tile/specialist slot. Scaling it like a GPTI would be double scaling.

The Interpretive Center is an entire era later, and its conversion is applicable only in one city; it is not a replacement for the Stadium's effect.

They're both normal buildings.

 

[Legen]

I don't understand why you want to make a Ducal Stable knock-off anyways? The bonus production modifier to strategics units is a powerful and underused effect that would fit well on japan, since both its UUs require strategics, and it doesn't have unnecessary side-effects like inflating strategic monopolies.

The Japanese do not need a way to break past strategic resource limitations, and are far better positioned than other civs like Indonesia or Rome in that respect.

What makes the Tatara unique is that it was an alternative source of iron, so a version of the Tatara that doesn't help with more iron makes no sense.

Also, read the posts at the beginning of this thread. You'll see people discussing about iron on walls, unique Ironworks, and so on, because Japan's current gameplan revolves a lot around chasing iron early and struggling to secure enough when the map generation isn't kind. And it makes sense that people would want the Samurai to be consistent, since the UA and the Dojo combat yields are basically designed with the Samurai's promotions in mind. Japan without Samurai feels worse to play than Indonesia without Kris Swordman, as the latter doesn't have major parts of their kit interacting with what the UU provides.

We want to scale it exactly like a regular UI + GW, as the citizen would be normally working another tile/specialist slot. Scaling it like a GPTI would be double scaling.

You mean unique improvement, or a regular improvement? A Camp is a regular improvement, not an UI.

Also, the proposed Torii doesn't add more yields on top of the GW and the GPTI scaling; it is just GW scaling + GPTI scaling. Any extra tech scaling relative to regular improvement + GW comes exclusively from the GPTI scaling part outpacing the regular improvement scaling.

For instance, the Torii with the Holy Site scaling would end at an extra +7 tech scaling compared to a GW + Camp with a +1 adjacency bonus. The Torii you had proposed would end with a +0 tech scaling relative to that same GW + Camp.

Japan already has a guaranteed great writer from Heroic Epic. If players want more consistent, predictable early game Torii then they can adopt Tradition.
They already have an extra source of GMusicians; they don't need 2 separate extra sources.

I wanted to replace the "yields on Defense buildings" with some other early effect, and conceived one that made sense with the Torii. Another idea would be to move the Dojo's yields on combat XP to the UA. Given that India's new UU will have a promotion that does the same, moving the Dojo's effect to the UA wouldn't require new code. For instance, imagine something along these lines:

----
UA: Shogunate
50% GWAMs from GGeneral/Admiral birth
Instant when units earn XP from combat (moved from dojo)

UB: Tatara (Ironworks)
Unlocks at Iron Working (from Machinery)
5 Iron (from 2)
Melee/Gun, Mounted Melee and Armor units in the Empire gain Eight Virtues of Bushido.
<<optional additional elements/effects>>
25 science when a building is completed in this city, scaling with era (base Ironworks effect)

UI - Torii
Same as the Holy Site scaling proposal, but without the "Iron on adjacency" part and the +4 on Atomic Theory (Stadium).
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Japan still gets an early yields effect in place of the current "yields on Defense buildings", Steel no longer has two unique components stacked, and the Dojo's main effects are preserved. If I didn't miss anything, this example would satisfy all points of your rework's reasoning.