Jared Diamond

The problem with Collapse is that, as people have pointed out in this thread, however reasonable the basic premise might sound, all of the examples used are flawed and most of them are outright wrong, and as such the book completely fails to demonstrate that premise.

I read several of the posts going back many pages. I haven't seen anyone disprove Diamond yet. I'm going off the wiki reference for Collapse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choose_to_Fail_or_Succeed

Is this really a left vs right debate about environmental degradation? If so then doesn't it make sense that overuse of natural resources will eventually lead to collapse of the system that depends on those resources?
 
I see. Pointing out your mistakes is "generating generic polemic responses." Cool. Good to know.

As you would know if you'd chosen to take my advice rather than continue the debate-as-feud approach, there is a difference between saying that someone cannot be wrong/must be right because of whatever position of authority they are in, and a reasonable person using the information/signals that go with that authority to put a likelihood on someone being wrong about so many things.

We humans are small and imperfect creatures, and no-one here is an expert or even well-read on every matter JD discusses. In view of our imperfection, here and elsewhere we use heuristics to get by and evaluate different problems we face. In JD's case his career and expertise and the publication process make the chances of him being 'wrong on every point' slight to non-existent; a well informed or experienced reader would not consider this a realistic possibility. There is a world of difference between utilizing experienced-shaped reliable guessing mechanisms (the way the human mind actually works) and making dumb inflexible assertions like 'he's great so cannot be wrong' (the way we try to rationalize such mechanisms).

I indicated several times that I meant the former and not the latter, and it was further explained in the response to Plotinus. I'm not sure how many times you need to have the same thing said, it's not like the text disappears and you have to rely on memory. Despite my efforts, you and your friend have been ignoring it while continuing to comment (along with quite a bit nastiness!), and this underlies the plea I make above and the problems I address therein. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the point is extremely hard to grasp. So as an analogy, imagine someone saying that Peyton Manning couldn't throw a ball or Lionel Messi couldn't kick a ball, and someone else pointing to their positions and claiming that to be unlikely. No, their achievements and status don't guarantee that per se, but nonetheless a reasonable person will regard it as unlikely that those assertions are going to be true.

If you still can't see the differences involved I suggest you refrain from posting, forget that high-school yard strawman 'comeback' you were about to use, and read over and over again until you do understand the difference.
 
I read several of the posts going back many pages. I haven't seen anyone disprove Diamond yet. I'm going off the wiki reference for Collapse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choose_to_Fail_or_Succeed

Is this really a left vs right debate about environmental degradation? If so then doesn't it make sense that overuse of natural resources will eventually lead to collapse of the system that depends on those resources?

Well, Gucumatz put up a pretty good summary of the flaws on several of the cases a few pages back, and has highlighted the issues with the Greenland example since:

You really think Collapse is insightful? Collapse is probably the least original of his works and rehashes sometimes historically and/or scientifically disproved theories. It doesn't explain the dynamics of genocide really at all (except for a slight attempt with Rwanda) and instead tries to shoehorn nearly everything as environmental collapse. Here is just a listing of a few chapters in Collapse that are downright wrong:

- 2 (Easter Island, No one really views the population collapse anymore as a tragedy of the commons result and Hunt and Lipo's research from the last 2 decades coupled with the historical record shows that the decline of population came from Spanish contact with the written record and obsidian, biological, and habitat records demonstrating the population remained stable before and after first contact with the Dutch.)

- 4 Anasazi "collapse". Another factually incorrect example and he tries to enforce his point via packrat middens that are not only notoriously unreliable but whose biological nature make it that those findings are pretty much guaranteed useless. Plus we know quite a few of the sites where greenery was cut for the sites and none of them are even remotely close to the Anasazi sites. Diamond completely ignores the people who continued to live using the same canals, "colonies", etc. of the main Anasazi sites that continued well after the gradual decline of more famous sites ie at Mesa Verde and Chaco.

- 5 And don't get me started on the Maya. Where to begin - the whitewashing of native history and really history in general to fit an environmental narrative often discredits people simply to score the modern day west to try and fix its environmental programs. Unfortunately it means a rewriting (and whitewashing) of history - this has become the case for the Maya too. In only examining the classical transition and completely ignoring the pre-classical transition and other transitions in the Mesoamerican world, Diamond completely ignores any historical, archaeological, or scientific context when it comes to the historical movement of populations in Mesoamerica. In claiming that deforestation damaged the Maya environment "repeatedly" he completely ignores any context about what my ancestors did in order to manage deforestation and degradation of the land. We created narrow but long aqueducts, rebuilt eroded limestone karsts, rotated fields, etc. As it is, every few years archaeologists have to revise population numbers upwards of Maya sites because they are stuck in the idea that we "slash and burnt" or mismanaged fields and other more primitive means of agriculture. If you look at forests that grew back around the fields of various sites that eventually declined, one could see a hundred years ago different ages/years from when some of these 300-500 year old trees came from via these field rotations. The practice continued for a while although it has declined today. Or if you look at the south, field rotation still happens all the time today. The cities of Kaminaljuyu and other southern cities aren't looked at by Diamond at all - but they present a good case of centuries, even millennia of extensive land management.

And it gets even more aggravating the more you look at his "details" that are just plain factually inaccurate. From English pastoral systems, to Mycenae Greece, to Greenland, to Australia he continues to get detail after detail wrong. Collapse is easily his most useless book and contributes pretty much nothing to anyone.


As for Wiki...well, yeah. Its fine for definitions, clearly defined facts etc. but if there's debate or uncertainty on something it starts to get a bit iffy. Not to mention, of the reviews of Collapse on that page, none were done by historians. We've got a general science journal, a news magazine, someone from an environment think-tank and another news type magazine. Not exactly the kind of people really best placed to analyse a book predominantly about history.
 
Well, Gucumatz put up a pretty good summary of the flaws on several of the cases a few pages back, and has highlighted the issues with the Greenland example since:

I read it, but that doesn't disprove environmental degradation as being partially to blame for the decline, collapse or transformation of the way people lived. If we could look a few centuries into the future we might find people looking back trying to puzzle out why our technologically advanced cities fell into decline and collapsed. Our current system requires enormous amounts of cheap energy and natural resources to maintain and we have projections of growing beyond what it can handle. How long would a city like Phoenix Arizona last if there wasn't cheap electricity and water?

As for Wiki...well, yeah. Its fine for definitions, clearly defined facts etc. but if there's debate or uncertainty on something it starts to get a bit iffy. Not to mention, of the reviews of Collapse on that page, none were done by historians. We've got a general science journal, a news magazine, someone from an environment think-tank and another news type magazine. Not exactly the kind of people really best placed to analyse a book predominantly about history.

I'm also looking the documentaries. I find film and commentary more accessible and easier to understand than just reading about it. The explanation of the Anasazi and Chaco Canyon is very plain and straight forward. They grew to the maximum capacity that a time of abundant water supply allowed. Afterwords a long term drought took the water supply down below what their population required so their population left in droves. Their system collapsed in terms of living as they had in Chaco Canyon. Their people lived on in but in a different way that the land could support.
 
I read it, but that doesn't disprove environmental degradation as being partially to blame for the decline, collapse or transformation of the way people lived. If we could look a few centuries into the future we might find people looking back trying to puzzle out why our technologically advanced cities fell into decline and collapsed. Our current system requires enormous amounts of cheap energy and natural resources to maintain and we have projections of growing beyond what it can handle. How long would a city like Phoenix Arizona last if there wasn't cheap electricity and water?



I'm also looking the documentaries. I find film and commentary more accessible and easier to understand than just reading about it. The explanation of the Anasazi and Chaco Canyon is very plain and straight forward. They grew to the maximum capacity that a time of abundant water supply allowed. Afterwords a long term drought took the water supply down below what their population required so their population left in droves. Their system collapsed in terms of living as they had in Chaco Canyon. Their people lived on in but in a different way that the land could support.


The problem, at least from what I've come across (and I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert) isn't so much the Diamond's ideas that enivormental changes and excessive growth can cause societies problems - they can - but that they aren't by any means the sole explanations, and, in some of the cases, don't even coincide with the "collapse" (which often wasn't really anything of the sort), combined with the use of outdated and/or plain wrong information about the societies in question. On top of this, he then extrapolates completely different scenarios and circumstances into a non-existant pattern of how societies "fail".

To be fair, when I first read Collapse (whenever it came out in the UK - I worked in a bookshop at the time), it seemed pretty reasonable. It's only looking in more detail at the history of some of the events described within that I began to realise the flaws. And just as a tip, don't just look at Diamond's books and the documentaries based on them - which will likely be made by people who agree with the ideas in the book - look at the criticism (Questionning Collapse is a good start) too and compare them.

I certainly also think, and you've touched on this, that there is some level of modern environmentalism involved in people's judgement of the book - go back to the wiki page, and the review quotes are mainly about how it's "an important lesson" and so forth. It's a lot easier to argue that we need to alter our lifestyle to avoid a "collapse" if past societies suffered the same. Now, I'm not saying that we don't have to change - I think we do - but such a comparison is ridiculous as we live in completely different circumstances from the Anasazi, the Maya or the Easter Islanders.
 
Pangur Bán;12881704 said:
In JD's case his career and expertise and the publication process make the chances of him being 'wrong on every point' slight to non-existent; a well informed or experienced reader would not consider this a realistic possibility.

You must understand this is not an argument in the slightest. You have it completely wrong. You cannot assume he's right (or even simply "not wrong") a priori. You just can't do that. Otherwise we'd have to accept some assertions as-is, on the grounds that the asserters are "very unlikely" to be wrong according to the rigorous logic of an undefined "publication process," et career et expertise.
 
I can certainly agree with the idea of questioning everything to a point. Nothing is certain about the prospect of future collapse and should be subject to further study and analysis. As for 'Questioning Collapse', my take on it would be that most of Diamond's critics are people that wish to promote free market ideology over environmentalism. There may also be people who just want to deny the concept because it goes against their ideology.

There are groups of people who care only about the here and now. They will do what will get them the most reward in the short term and turn a blind eye to the long term consequences of their actions, That is until it's too late to do anything other than try to find another way to survive. The fossil fuel industry and the cheap energy economics it brings are good examples of that in the present. Do you see anyone with real power doing what it takes to change that?

I recommend being skeptical of the skeptics too. Read the reviews of "Questioning Collapse" for starters. There are some good ones.
Spoiler :
A weak rebuttal of Diamond's 'Collapse' but it does raise important issues., October 25, 2009
By
Allen B. Hundley

Amazon Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: Questioning Collapse: Human Resilience, Ecological Vulnerability, and the Aftermath of Empire (Paperback)
I placed an order for"Questioning Collapse" as soon as I heard about it and before its release date because I expected a spirited and well reasoned challenge to Jared Diamond's best selling "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed." The critique leaves something to be desired but the essays by Norman Yoffee and by Errington and Gewertz bring my rating up to 4 stars.

In the interest of full disclosure this reviewer worked as a technical consultant in a number of the countries covered in these books, and in others, many of which by any reasonable standard would be judged as either failed states or close to it. This includes three months near the border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic, five months working with the few journalists in Rwanda who survived the 1994 genocide, almost a year with native people in Honduras, and with farmers, both Latino and Mayan, in the Yucatan. I am neither an archaeologist nor an anthropologist but mine is more than armchair analysis. Now happily retired I have no professional reputation to defend, no books to sell, no political agenda to push, and most assuredly zero tolerance for political correctness.

Two themes dominate "Questioning Collapse": Diamond is wrong to charge that societies destroy themselves by despoiling their environment, and the whole idea of collapse is overblown because societies rarely if ever collapse. They just become more simple in their political and economic structure.

The contributors seem intent on disproving Diamond's claims regarding the role environmental impact has played in societal collapse. Their evidence may have some validity but it seems to me that they are avoiding far more important questions like the appropriate level of analysis, society or civilization, Joseph Tainter's view notwithstanding.

Diamond never claims that environmental degradation is the sole cause of a society's failure. Other factors including geography and history also play a role. Where he does point to overpopulation as a central cause, as in the Rwanda genocide of 1994, his documentation is detailed and powerful.

In contrast Christopher Taylor's essay "Rwandan Genocide: Toward an Explanation in Which History and Culture Matter" merely presents some personal narrative, historical background and points to corrupt and manipulative politicians as key culprits. But both the background and the politicians have already been covered in detail by Diamond.

(Sadly Radio Rwanda played a key role in orchestrating the genocide. That aspect of the tragedy contrasts so dramatically with the extraordinary heroism of June Keithly and Radio Veritas in the Philippines, whose broadcasts enabled General Ramos to rally dissident military elements to overthrow dictator Marcos and prevent a mass slaughter of civilians during the 1986 People Power revolution.)

Drexel Woodson, a specialist in Haiti, seeks to counter what he considers to be Diamond's misleading comparison of the two countries with a long recitation of Haitian history and politics. In the end I am at a loss to see what that adds to understanding why Haiti is a wasteland with only 1% forested while the DR is 28% forested. Both countries had foreign occupations and many dictators but at least the DR had a few leaders like Juan Balaguer who cared about more than just enriching themselves and their cronies. The same cannot be said of Haiti and that is Diamond's point.

My point is that in the modern world technology, culture, and individuals interact to alter the course of history for better or for worse. Perhaps Diamond, the contributors to this book, and your reviewer can all agree on that.

The book's editors contend that societies do not really collapse, they just adjust to new circumstances. The fact is that today's Maya are now marginalized people at the bottom of societies that generally treat them with condescension if not contempt. In their heyday the Maya were the world leaders in astronomy, capable of organizing the vast resources needed to build complex and magnificent temples. Today's pathetic remnant is not even a shadow of those glorious days. Societies may survive in a primitive condition but civilizations do indeed collapse. But of course this would represent a bias toward the values of contemporary western civilization according to Errington and Gewertz. If so, I plead guilty.

A specialist in Mesopotamia, Norman Yoffee says that while there is little evidence that environmental impact caused the collapse of ancient societies there is plenty of evidence that foolish rulers did. "Furthermore, we can demonstrate how arrogant decisions by mighty leaders led to overextension and the fall of their states. If one 'rule' of political stability/instability can be risked, it is that the more centralized the government, the larger the bureaucracy, and the larger the army in a state, the less stable is the government and the more drastic and comprehensive is the fall of the state." (p.182).

Yoffee writes, "Although Diamond declared that we can't understand why the Soviet Union collapsed by looking at the past, it is just the kind of collapse of an enormous empire that we CAN compare with what happened, for example, in the Assyrian empire in Mesopotamia." (p.178). He then describes how increasing centralization of government power by a succession of Assyrian kings led ultimately to disaster so complete for the Assyrian state that it never recovered.

I wish Yoffee had written more about the demise of the Soviet Union and how it compares with its ancient predecessors . Like Joseph Tainter's prescient observations about our current civilization in his classic "The Collapse of Complex Societies", that would make for some interesting reading.
link
 
I read it, but that doesn't disprove environmental degradation as being partially to blame for the decline, collapse or transformation of the way people lived. If we could look a few centuries into the future we might find people looking back trying to puzzle out why our technologically advanced cities fell into decline and collapsed. Our current system requires enormous amounts of cheap energy and natural resources to maintain and we have projections of growing beyond what it can handle. How long would a city like Phoenix Arizona last if there wasn't cheap electricity and water?



I'm also looking the documentaries. I find film and commentary more accessible and easier to understand than just reading about it. The explanation of the Anasazi and Chaco Canyon is very plain and straight forward. They grew to the maximum capacity that a time of abundant water supply allowed. Afterwords a long term drought took the water supply down below what their population required so their population left in droves. Their system collapsed in terms of living as they had in Chaco Canyon. Their people lived on in but in a different way that the land could support.

But thats a really poor comparison and jumping to conclusions here. Chaco Canyon is neither plain nor straightforward. Diamond examines one particular era of drought and claims that was the end of Chaco Canyon while ignoring the historical record that there were actually worse droughts in the history of Chaco Canyon for longer periods of time that obviously didn't end Chaco Canyon. The question of maximum capacity is particularly an amusing case when it comes to SW US too. If you look at today the ancestors of the "Anasazi", people like the Pima and O'odham you can see the vast canal system is still in usage today from the era [even though ever since Americans/white have come in they have further destroyed the miles and miles of canals that had been built over the centuries]. If you look at the history of the canals part of the reason there were so many and so many miles is because of how rainfall worked in the region, rain wasn't always a guarantee and the vast system of canals still see interchange today by modern descendants of the "Anasazi". Also Chaco Canyon and Mesa Verde were not the only Anasazi sites merely the most famous of sites. Chaco Canyon was more a political and religious site than it was actually an agricultural site - seriously try finding any real traces of agriculture at Chaco.

Diamond briefly mentions "colonies" and these were the locations where food was grown. Chaco Canyon's population was never that large to begin with which is why when you see the construction of buildings at Chaco it tended to be over the course of centuries or significant numbers of decades. Think about the late 1500s-1600s too, Chaco Canyon was an administrative center of a diverse and separated number of peoples and in the 1600s (only 100-150 years after the "formal fall of the Anasazi" ) when the Spanish contacted the Pueblo peoples each of the former "colonies" had significant population numbers. In fact if you take a look at "Anasazi" territory archaeologists begin to see that these colonies were actually different groups of peoples with their own culture, languages, etc. that were at one point united under some sort of confederation - which is what Chaco Canyon is.

When Pope led the massive Pueblo Revolt against the Spanish, people seem to forget none of the separate Pueblo peoples spoke the same language (similarly to how people don't realize how different Maya is and that most Kingdoms spoke different languages than each other, although they were related). And although Pope briefly reunited the Pueblo peoples [well until the Spanish came back...] it wasn't like under this brief unification any of these "colonies" adjusted their population/had population shifts.

In Questioning Collapse, one of the experts is an O'odham Native himself who partly talks about how his people consider themselves one of the "Anasazi" peoples and folklore behind it. They and other Pueblo peoples have inhabited the land at the very minimum since/during the "decline" of the Anasazi and according to archaeological data and numbers they never suffered severe population loss, contrary to claims of "collapse" of the Anasazi. Its a classic case of people ignoring the archaeology of the people still there and the canals tell so much of this.
======

As for Phoenix, many of the Pueblo peoples centuries old canal systems were covered up, replaced, or used themselves by Americans who moved into the region. It wasn't until the mid 1900s that seizure of ancestral canals really stopped in the region and things like the CAP canal project that feed water to Phoenix are actually imposed somewhat over former native works. Frankly the CAP project is a good comparison with Pueblo Canals/Anasazi Canals/Natives of today in the region. The CAP project leaves so much surface area of water exposed to the sun that vast tracts of water are lost to the heat and atmosphere. The difference is that these systems were developed over centuries to be the most efficient possible - whereas current water feeding into sites like Las Vegas or Phoenix are incredibly wasteful because designs are not made for longevity like the indigenous systems were.
========================

None of which of course is to stay environmental issues aren't significant - they of course are. Historically I'd argue people actually cared more and did more to deal with these issues than they do today, that's something a narrative like Diamond's will tell you the opposite of.

Edit: On Questioning Collapse, there were some passages I was not a fan of particularly either [Rwanda in particular terms was one of the weaker passages]. But I find that reviewer finds Diamond's passage on Rwanda as anything close to decent.

Also this "guy" says this:
The book's editors contend that societies do not really collapse, they just adjust to new circumstances. The fact is that today's Maya are now marginalized people at the bottom of societies that generally treat them with condescension if not contempt. In their heyday the Maya were the world leaders in astronomy, capable of organizing the vast resources needed to build complex and magnificent temples. Today's pathetic remnant is not even a shadow of those glorious days. Societies may survive in a primitive condition but civilizations do indeed collapse. But of course this would represent a bias toward the values of contemporary western civilization according to Errington and Gewertz. If so, I plead guilty.

So much wrong with this I don't know where to begin. Surviving in "primitive condition????" sure the fact that we have been subject to multiple genocides, the footsoldiers of the elite, etc. are there but this is as bad a comparison you can give. Diamond in Collapse examines only the classical transition (so this is quite a bit before the Spanish arrived). After the classical transition we certainly did not collapse and we certainly did adjust to new circumstances. Quite a few cities underwent their own golden ages during this time, including Kaminaljuyu [that eventually became the Capital of modern day Guatemala] and my ancestor's capital at Iximche. Some of the classical sites in Peten were surpassed sure by other cities, but no "knowledge" was really lost, but advances in the calendar came really in the post-classical transition. Advances in architecture away from classical corbalted vaulting, came in post-classical, and advances in literature and even poetry emerged in the post-classical [most of which is lost today]. Its a pretty bad comparison to try and compare a world dominated by Europeans and their descendants today and claim "COLLAPSE" and ignoring the centuries of progress, engineering, and advances done after this supposed "Collapse". This guy's comment is like asking why Blacks aren't economically equal to whites today - I don't know maybe the centuries of systematic disadvantages... have become systematic? *Faux Shock* :eek: And besides even to the 20th century Maya movements led to the liberation of ancestral cities [The last Neo-Maya state was destroyed in the early 1900s ie].
 
@ Gucumatz, do recognize that the contributors to Questioning Collapse are not a random sample of representative academics, but people who've got together precisely because something factual/methodological/ideological on their pet topic in Collapse has annoyed them.
 
Pangur Bán;12884236 said:
@ Gucumatz, do recognize that the contributors to Questioning Collapse are not a random sample of representative academics, but people who've got together precisely because something factual/methodological/ideological on their pet topic in Collapse has annoyed them.

Believe it or not I actually know some of the professors who participated in writing the book. Believe it or not the two I knew thought Diamond has some valid points in his previous books - but its not like these experts are any different from experts as a whole on Diamond or Collapse. Ask ANY expert in their relevant field - this isn't a group of fringe folk, pretty much everyone cringes at Collapse.
 
Believe it or not I actually know some of the professors who participated in writing the book. Believe it or not the two I knew thought Diamond has some valid points in his previous books - but its not like these experts are any different from experts as a whole on Diamond or Collapse. Ask ANY expert in their relevant field - this isn't a group of fringe folk, pretty much everyone cringes at Collapse.

They are different because they got together to attack JD. I won't [ab]use deviance labels and call them 'fringe' (they couldn't be in any case since few care about JD), but portraying them as somehow a representative sample is just not honest, esp. when using that as a way to attack JD.
 
Besides which, given the long odds of one professor being wrong about stuff in a published book, it stands to reason that the odds are much worse that several are wrong in the same book?

Certainly it's more likely that they're correct in criticizing Diamond then some guy on a video gaming forum knows better.
 
@Lord Baal, actually it is pretty common for academics to group themselves into camps. An unfortunate tendency, but one that starts with books like that.
 
Besides which, given the long odds of one professor being wrong about stuff in a published book, it stands to reason that the odds are much worse that several are wrong in the same book?

Certainly it's more likely that they're correct in criticizing Diamond then some guy on a video gaming forum knows better.


That really doesn't track. Not if the authors were selected for their conclusions, rather than for their expertise. Now I don't know that it happened, but it certainly can. Particularly with a politically charged subject, like anything to do with environmentalism.
 
Sorry, LB, not responding to any more posts like that. If you want to engage me again post something that is thoughtful, well-mannered, good-faithed and shows some knowledge of the topic in question.
 
Pangur Bán;12885070 said:
They are different because they got together to attack JD. I won't [ab]use deviance labels and call them 'fringe' (they couldn't be in any case since few care about JD), but portraying them as somehow a representative sample is just not honest, esp. when using that as a way to attack JD.

But what you choose to say isn't honest either. Its far from an "attack" considering most of the writers are liberals who are environmentalists [one of them an active environmentalist in Australia IE and fighter for Aborigine rights] as well. If you think this isn't a representative sample fine - but I challenge you to find 1, one single, just one expert in the relevant examples discussed in Collapse who thinks its a good work.
 
But what you choose to say isn't honest either. Its far from an "attack" considering most of the writers are liberals who are environmentalists [one of them an active environmentalist in Australia IE and fighter for Aborigine rights] as well. If you think this isn't a representative sample fine - but I challenge you to find 1, one single, just one expert in the relevant examples discussed in Collapse who thinks its a good work.

You're not disputing what I said. I had decided that was worth pointing out because I felt you were putting too much weight on the fact that one small group decided to be vocal about their criticism; it's as if somehow a greenpeace protest somewhere was meant to prove that all people hated oil companies, when actually most don't care or are happy to benefit from their activity.

And for the record you can see that reception of JD's work is mixed from a quick google book search. We could obviously spend time lawyering the term 'expert' for any of these (as we could the QC), but as we both know those QC guys only went into print in the first place because they know JD's arguments carried some weight in many camps.
 
Back
Top Bottom