JB1 - Generic Random Deity

The basic strategic sitation is this: Rome can harry us in the east by marching Rifles around and pillaging our territory, forcing us to rely on Cannon to scare them away when they get close enough to our cities, or on unfavorable attacks by our Cavalry. It takes 3 turns to move infantry from our productive core to the western theatre of battle safely (see picture below), and that's where Rome has concentrated their offensive armies against us. That means that only Cavalry can move from east to west fast enough to fight off Roman incursions, which they absolutely must do to prevent us from losing Spices and sending us into pandemic-level starvation unless we crank our luxuries up to the point that we're at about -60 gpt. Thus we have no reliable mobile force in the east, forcing us to keep the infantry have where it is -- i.e. in the east, not the long road to the west.

In short, this is the most brilliant strategically offensive campaign I've ever seen the AI mount against me. To make things more exciting, we're locked into 20 turns of war. Here's my real-time log of events:

AD 450 (0)
I don't really see the need for Tatung to have Walls, so it gets vetoed to Barracks. Anyang goes to Courthouse. The aesthete in me wants Tarsus first, but the Iron that Akkad has access to me makes it more appealing as a first target. But as I said, priorities are in a secure defense. England offers 7 gpt and Navigation for Military Tradition.

IT: Rome and the Iroquois ally against USA. Iro start Newton's. Our Rider kills an attacking Cavalry (!). Korea and the Iroquois ally against USA.

AD 460 (1)
Bejing: Cavalry -> Cavalry
Tsingtao: Harbor -> Cavalry
Shanghai: Musket -> Musket
Canton: Musket -> Musket
3 Roman Cavalry stray into the open. We get 2 elites doing the obvious thing. Upgrade a couple Riders, count my Workers... Oh. That's ugly. I get 18 slaves and 5 natives. We're developed enough right now, but the rail net will be really slow in coming. Oh well; not the problem right now.

IT: Iro and Rome embargo us. Rome feeds stuff into the meatgrinder; we lose a Cav and an elte Spear but kill a Cav, a Longbow, and knock 1/2 the life off of a Cavalry army (that was our Spear, btw). The bad guys disconnect a redundant Saltpeter and a very non-redundant Spice source.

AD 470 (2)
Persepolis: Musket -> Musket
Susa revols; scroll ahead. After all my hard work, I then go to the city screen to find that WW has ratcheted up and we now need to run a 65 gpt deficit to keep our cities from starving. Great. This is a bad enough situation that I have to sleep on it. After careful consideration, I decide an all-out assault on Tarsus is the best way to get our Spices back online.

AD 480 (3)
England is about to discover Cavalry by research, so I sell it to her for a pittance (I'm penny-counting here). I hold off on assaulting Tarsus in favor of picking off Rifleman who unwisely strayed into the open. It costs us a Cavalry, but we nail 4 of them.

IT: Gringos start Newton's. Washington builds the Trading Company. Rome makes several disjointed attacks on well-defended cities; we pay a Musketman for a Cavalry, but force 2 more to retreat.

AD 490 (4)
Assault on Tarsus: We lose a vet Cavalry, fail to spring a leader once, but secure it after taking out only 2 Rifles. Our pop growth is still a little stunted, but at least we're back up to -1 gpt instead of -45.

IT: Salamanca finishes Newton's. Rome builds the Theater. Cascade is terminated. Rome lands a Cavalry pair behind the lines at Tarsus; they're still next to our road net, so it could have been much worse.

AD 500 (5)
Nanking: Granary -> Cavalry
Shanghai: Musket -> Musket
Canton revolts; bad mistake by me. We smash the expeditionary force in the west.

IT: Iro and Korea ally against Rome; that terminates the Iroquois's embargo against us. :) England finally joins Rome against us; I almost care. Caesar continues to hemhorrage Cavalry against use, making sure that each full-strength, fortified Musketman with a city defense bonus gets a chance to kill one. Their army kills 2 in Macao, though.

AD 510 (6)
We take revenge on the Cavalry army, slaughtering it in the open plain north of Macao without loss. WW ratchets up again; fortunately, we can ship Hiawatha Incense and 14 gpt for Furs thanks to Korea's cunning diplomacy. He won't sell us Gems for less than the cost of 10% luxes, so we stop there. But it still lets us fire most of the specialists, which makes me relieved. I should've rushed Macao's Barracks a long time ago; I rectify that error now. Our lack of infantry in the western theatre of battle is starting to hurt in a serious way. I swap Nanking off of its Cav to a Musket.

AD 520 (7)
Susa: Cavalry -> Cavalry
More leader fishing and harrying of Roman forces intruding on our territory.

AD 530 (8)
Beijing: Cavalry -> Cavalry
Tatung: Barracks -> Musket
Antioch: Courthouse -> Barracks
Canton: Musket -> Cavalry
Tienstsin: Musket -> Musket, hire a specialist (badly needs a Market, but needs defense worse)
Ellipi gets swapped from Cavalry to Aqueduct; we need more people. Physics remains prohibitively expensive, but America will now buy Horses from us. Since this is due to Iroquois gains against them, I'm unwilling to ship them for fear of our credit rating.

IT: America and Korea make peace. Rome offers peace, but we cannot accept.

AD 540 (9)
Persepolis: Musket -> Musket
Shanghai: Musket -> Cavalry
Chengdu: Musket (regular; oops) -> Aqueduct
More partisan-style attacks on Roman invaders. I can't seem to muster enough full-health Cavalry to assault Akkad decisively.

IT: My luck runs out. Persepolis falls to Roman Cavalry, setting off a new round of debilitating WW.

AD 550 (10)
Tsingtao: Cavalry -> Barracks (oops again; this is getting embarassing)
We get a palace expansion, but I'm just not feeling the love. I fling the Cavalry I have at Persepolis; it should've been a giveaway assault, but of course their last veteran Cavalry kills off 3 of ours.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

And that's the way it is. Our strategic situation is slightly worse than when I picked up the game, and there's plenty more of this war to go. Our tactical situation in the west is nothing less than catastrophic. I had no idea that retaking Persepolis would be a problem. I was wrong, and now Darkness is going to pay for it.

With the benefit of hindsight (and only that benefit; see my comments in previous posts for a more faithful analysis of TMcC's choices in that regard), I wish we didn't have those alliances. It would've been better to eat whatever Rome had to throw at us for only a few turns than to expose ourselves to their long-term production advantage. I think the real problem was that no one realized what an amazing strategic position Rome had, and so there was no appreciation of how important it was to quickly terminate this war. As it is, our entire economy is devoted to pouring out forces that are being fed into a meatgrinder for absolutely no gain to our civ. The world is at war (we can't downplay the importance of this; it's definitely a big point in favor of the MA network TMcC set up), but our facade of strength is beginning to collapse.

The Caesarian Wars
 
The pink dots show where infantry on the way west can't stop. Use your mathetmatical skills to figure out why this is such a serious problem in the war.

akkadproblem.jpg
 
Tough turns. We traded cities with them, and came out on the short end. When I signed those MA's, I knew Korea and the US had cavalry. With that long border they share with Rome, I figured they might actually be of use. That border hasn't budged in 11 turns, so I hope they are at least eating up most of Caesar's production. I honestly expected Rome to peter out by the second half of your turn, with most of their production devoted to attacking Korea or the US. Obviously not. I don't think breaking an MA affects our ability to buy tech on credit, only our ability to gain other MA's. Since we won't ever have to fight a two-front war, it is something to consider. I'd prefer not, but it is up Darkness to do as he sees fit.

The one bright note is that we start to get our money back on this turn. We'll regain more gpt on turn 5, and the MA's end (as does one other gpt payment) on turn 9. Hopefully we can hold the status quo, and maybe have a shot at attacking Perseopolis on turn 9. I wouldn't be surprised to see Korea or US make peace before us. At least the Iro's are in on our side (I assume you meant Iro and US make peace, not Korea and US). All three viable eastern civs attacking Rome have to do some damage, right?

So, are all of the attacks coming in the west now, or are the Romans still assaulting Canton?

Darkness got leaders the last two times, can he do it again? Playing defense for a few turns then unleashing a Cav army might be nice.
 
We could cut the road next to Akkad. That way Rome can no longer reach your farthest pink dots which would help alot.

It is hard for me to judge the effect of the MA. If we had been hit by 20-30 cavalry, our entire west might have collapsed & the price of peace extreme as we get beaten back to our core cities. Or maybe not.

I think things would have been rough no matter what we did. We just weren't ready yet.

I think you did well all things considered.
 
@TMcC: They continue to harass Canton, but it's not under heavy assault. Their main strength is in the west. No renegs on MAs, either. It's considered exploitive; this one actually is listed on my initial post.

@Greebley: Cutting the road outside of Akkad is something I wish I'd thought of. Dang. But you are right about the judging of the MAs; we can't know what might have happened. The problem now is not how much armed might Casear can fling at us but our war-weary population. We're essentially impoverished with no succour visible any time soon, unless all of our allies settle with Caesar.

And once you see what my reckless assault on Persepolis has made of the western front, you may withdraw even your "all-things-considered" compliment.

Beijing and its surrounds remain secure. That much, at least, we have going for us.
 
This is why emotional reactions to the loss of a city have no place in competitive Civ play. In my defense, we do desparately need the road line to our Spices hooked up again; that +50 is going to turn into a negative number once Darkness finishes managing the unhappiness I just laid on him.

550ad.jpg
 
I consider 3 cavalry losing on attack to 1 cavalry more bad luck than poorly played. Well maybe if your cavalry had 1 hp each it would be overzealous. I think most ppl would have also done what you did with those odds in your favor.

I will have to look at the save. You make it sound very grim.
 
Yeah, the dominos might begin to fall. Do you think abandoning Macao would be the right move? It could save a WW hit, and free up a cav to move/defend elsewhere. Since we captured Tarsus, we have spices even without Macao.

We only have to hang for 9 turns, so I'm not afraid of going bankrupt. We are also only 1 level shy of the max WW allowed in Republic.

A few bad RNG rolls and it all went to heck in a handbasket. Starting with Caesar deciding to attack. If he had just waited out the ROP, I think we would have been safe.
 
Originally posted by Greebley
We don't get spices in the above picture do we? There is no path from the spices to our capitol that I see.

I meant that while neither Tarsus nor Macao are hooked up to our core, they both claim spices. Tarsus is actually easier to connect, with a harbor.
 
Looks like this game is officially a hot potato! Kuningas, can you find an excuse to not be the one responsible for the next 9 turns of defeats?

Roster:
JustBen
Darkness (skipped)
Kuningas (up next)
Greebley (on deck)
T_McC
 
Originally posted by JustBen
Looks like this game is officially a hot potato! Kuningas, can you find an excuse to not be the one responsible for the next 9 turns of defeats?

:lol: :lol:

I'd love to play the next ten turns, but I'll be spending the weekend in a different city, so no computer/no civ... :(
 
Originally posted by JustBen
Looks like this game is officially a hot potato! Kuningas, can you find an excuse to not be the one responsible for the next 9 turns of defeats?

I will play those turns. Probably I screw everything but if we are still alive after 9 turns I'll conclude peace with Romans.
 
Preturn:

Win: cavalry (hp 3/5) vs 1/4 cavalry
Rider upgraded
Lux to 20% ->13gpt
some MM for troops and cities.
Harbor rushed in Uruk

Renewing luxuries trade with Koreans: Incense, WM, 22gpt and 3 gold for Ivory and Wines.
America and Iroquois signed a peace treaty.


1 - 560AD
Nanking Musket ->Cavalry
Uruk Harbor ->Musket
2 WLTBP messages

Persepolis have vet Rifleman.
Attacked Akkad instead.
Lose: 5/5 cavalry vs 3/3 rifle
draw: cavalry (hp 1/5) vs 2/3 rifle
win: cavalry (hp 3/4) vs 2/3 rifle
win: cavalry (hp 5/5) vs 3/3 cavalry GREAT LEADER :goodjob:
This leaves Macao undefended. Akkad's strategic location is better so hopefully I manage to defence it next few turns.


WW really starting to hurt us.
Iroquois: Gems for 25gpt and 12 gold.
lux to 30% -53 gpt.

Macao defended. Roman Cavalry marched to city.

2 - 570AD
Susa Cavalry -> Cavalry
Antioch Barracks -> Cavalry
Ellipi Courthouse -> Cavalry

Musket rushed in Tatung (-92 gold)
Lux to 20% -28 gpt.
Courthouse rushed is Sidon (-40 gold)

Lose: 4/4 cavalry vs 3/3 MI. (was trying to cut road) draw: cavalry (hp 1/4) vs MI (3/5) on mountain.

3 - 580AD
Tsingtao Barracks ->Musket
Sidon Courthouse ->Temple
Tientsin Musket ->Musket

Win: MI (hp 3/4) vs 1/4 cavalry

2nd battle of Persepolis:
draw: cavalry (hp 1/5) vs 4/4 rifle (2/4)
cannon fire missed
cannon fire shotted -1 hp to 4/4 rifle
win: cavalry (hp 3/5 promote) vs 4/4 rifle
win: cavalry (hp 1/5) vs 3/4 rifle
Lose: 4/4 cavalry vs rifle (hp 1/4)
Win: cavalry (hp 35) vs 1/4 rifle
Persepolis captured.

Barracks and Marketplace in PP.
Persepolis ->musket

Caesar is rushing units 2000 gold left. At least he rush them in cities with barracks.

Lose: cavalry (hp 2/4) vs 4/4 pikeman. Lose: cavalry (hp 4/5) vs 5/5 Mi. We lost stack of 6 workers but they didn't disband them.

4 - 590AD
3 WLTBP messages
Shanghai cavalry ->cavalry
Spices reconnected

Win: cavalry (hp 2/4) vs 2/4 cavalry
win: cavalry (hp 4/5) vs 4/5 cavalry. workers taken back

Deals: no worry about bankrupt next turn 68gpt deal to America will expire.

Ashur courthouse rushed

lux to 10%

lose: cavalry (hp 2/4) vs 4/4 musket. draw: cavalry (hp 1/4) vs 4/4 pike. lose: cavalry (hp 3/5) vs 4/4 MI. Romans captured Akkad.

5 - 600AD

Beijing cavalry ->musket
Ashur courthouse ->temple
Canton cavalry ->cavalry

2nd battle of Macao:
win: cavalry (hp 2/5) vs 4/4 rifle
lose: 5/5 cavalry vs rifle (hp 1/4)
win: cavalry (hp 3/5) vs 4/5 cavalry
win: MI (4/5 promote) vs 1/4 rifle
Macao captured

Macao ->musket

Arbela:
lost 4/5 cavalry vs rifle (hp 1/3)
win: cavalry (hp 1/5) vs 2/2 rifle
win: cavalry (hp 4/5) vs 4/5 cavalry
win: cavalry (hp 4/5) vs 1/3 rifle
Arbela +9 workers captured

Arbela ->Marketplace

win: cavalry (hp 3/5 promote) vs 3/5 cavalry

Let's help our friend Abe: Horses, salt, 32 gpt, WM and 5 gold for Physics.
Slider 9.0.1 -> 90gpt.

lose: 3/5 cavalry vs rifle (hp 2/4). Romans western parts going to collapse. Korean and Iroquois landed cavalries.

6 - 610AD

Susa Cavalry ->musket

win: cavalry (hp 4/4) vs 2/4 rifle
Akkad:
win: cavalry (hp 2/5 promote) vs 3/3 rifle
lost: 4/4 cavalry vs cavalry (hp 2/4)
win: cavalry (hp 3/4) vs 2/4 cavalry
Akkad captured
Akkad ->Barracks

Thanks to Koreans they killed 2 cavalries and injured one. win: 4/4 cavalry vs cavalry (hp 3/5 promote)

7 - 620AD
Gordium riots.
Ellipi Cavalry ->harbor
Hangchow courthouse ->Aqueduct

win: cavalry (hp 5/5) vs 2/4 cavalry

Koreans have captured Hispalis.

8 - 630AD

Gordium:
draw: cavalry (hp 1/4) vs rifle (hp 3/4)
lose: 5/5 cavalry vs rifle (hp 2/5)
win: cavalry (2/5) vs 4/4 rifle
win: cavalry (3/4) vs 2/5 rifle
Gordium + 4 workers captured
Gordium ->marketplace
Dyes connected now we have all 8 luxuries.

Caesar made a cavalry drop.

9 - 640AD
Tsnigtao musket ->aqueduct
Shanghai cavalry ->musket

win: cavalry (hp 3/5) vs 4/4 cavalry

Bactra:
lose: 5/5 cavalry vs rifle (hp 2/4)
draw: cavalry (hp 1/5) vs rifle (hp 3/4)
win: cavalry (hp 3/5) vs 4/4 rifle
win: cavalry (hp 5/5) vs 3/4 rifle
lose: 5/5 cavalry vs rifle (hp 2/5 promote)
win: cavalry (hp 3/4) vs 2/5 rifle
Bactra captured
Bactra Marketplace

Slider 10.0.0 +214 gpt.

lose: cavalry vs 4/4 MI.

10 - 650AD

Persepolis Musket ->Cavalry
Tatung Musket ->Marketplace
Susa musket ->Cavalry
Chenghu Aqueduct ->Granary

Tyre:
draw: cavalry (hp 1/4) vs rifle (hp 2/4)
win: cavalry (hp 2/5) vs 3/3 rifle
win: cavalry (hp 2/4) vs rifle 2/4
Tyre + worker captured.
Tyre ->marketplace

win: cavalry (hp 2/4) vs 2/4 cavalry


This is the turn we can make peace without reputation hit (oops it was last turn). But I don't know if we want to. Romans are weak two front war is too much
even for Caesar.

Ended all ROP treaties -> Iroquois/Koreans won't able to use our roads anymore when attacking Romans.
Ended all MA vs Romans -> We won't lose gold every turn. But didn't conclude peace with Romans it's up to next player.

Left GL Qianlong in Susa. I got it turn 1. I planned to make army with it. Maybe I should had as there were many other opportunities for 4th GL.
 
I made this summary. It's nice to see how units changing in 10 turns etc.


Summary

550AD 650AD change

cities 19 25 +6
tiles 281 345 +64

Income 473 609 +136
to other civs 173 93 -80
from other civs 0 0 0

gpt +50 +266 +216
treasure 797 755 -42

luxuries 5 8 +3
slider 9.0.1 10.0.0
resources 3 3

total units 50 51 +1
workers 5 6 +1
pikemans 12 11 -1
musketmans 8 13 +5
cavalries 8 8 0
cannons 8 8 0
Medieval I 7 3 -4
other 2 2 0
slaves 20 33 +13

score 794 906 +112
(5th) (5th)
 
:worship: Kuningas :worship:

Spec-freaking-tacular!

The Romans have just about completely collapsed. In my gut, I agree not to make peace with Caesar, just to keep our boot on his throat. But ... we only have 8 cavalry, and 3 of them are playing defense.

The pros to staying at war are: It sounds as though Casear is completely gassed. I noticed a distinct lack of Roman attacks during the last half of Kuningas' turn, so our cities aren't really in danger with sustained war. (Heh, maybe those MA did pay off. :mischief: ) Caesar also is down to 87 gold. I can tell you that when the war started, he had over 9000. (I didn't mention it in my report, but I figured the Koreans and the US were coming into this war, might as well be for us rather than against us.) We are at maximum WW, so further war isn't going to enrage our poplulace any more. Also by doinking the ROP's, we are in by far the best position to capture Ravenna and Virconium.

Cons: We are still 2 technologies from the Ind. Age, (and the AI have at least Nationalism and Steam) and having to pour almost our entire economy into military, just to break even (our net gain in the last 10 turns was to trade 4 MI for 4 muskets). We are rather thin on defense at this time.

Our front has narrowed considerably. When the war started, we had 8 front-line cities, we now have 3. If I were up next, I'd at least investigate going after Ravenna. I don't think either the Koreans or the US can keep a force together to capture it, but we can. Guessing we need 4 cavs, more if we can spare them. Ideally we would take Ravenna and Virconium, making our core safe from land invasion, and establishing a fairly narrow front, which we could easily defend. Taking those two cities would also further cripple Caesar. The Romans would lose a luxury with each city.

As far as the GL goes: Making an army sounds nice, but we really don't have the units to spare. Might we consider a palace jump? Beijing is in a fairly awful place for a capital, but I don't have an immediately better suggestion. The GL also could guarantee us ToE.

Couple notes for the next leader: We are still at war with England. I see no reason to continue this. Not having an MA in place will make Caesar pay more for peace. (I can't see any scenario where we invade the Roman core at this time). Also, there are 3 workers in Sidon that have been hiding there since my last turn, so don't get fooled by the garrison. We also have luxuries we can sell. (May be a bit dicey until peace is struck.)

It's a Deity game, and we are 1st in Land Area and 1st in Population, early in the Industrial Age. Yeah, I'd say that's a winning position.
 
Holy, holy, holy excrement! Kuningas, how did you do that? For those of you playing along at home, compare my last screenshot of us circling the drain (note especially the minimap) to our current setup:

jb01_650ad.jpg


As far as I'm concerned, the sooner we get back to a peacetime economy, the sooner we can start a real war with the AIs. But I defer to Greebley; fight for as long as you feel comfortable doing so.

I'd rather see the GL put towards a better Palace location than saved for the ToE. With minimal infrastructure in the empire, a better Palace could have a really strong influence on our game. Tientsin looks promising to me. Remember that the AI frequently (but not always!) runs down the top tech path before it heads towards Scientific Metod; I'd hate to stare at a leader fortified in Beijing for the next 40 turns or so.

Roster:
JustBen
Darkness
Kuningas
Greebley (up next)
T_McC (on deck)
 
What a difference 10 turns makes!

By having a second look, I'd say we are in a good defensive position now, with Ravenna it would be better, but Virconium is probably more bother than it is worth.

If we're going to jump the palace, I agree that Tientsin looks like a good option.

Also note that if we do capture Ravenna, it will be the first Roman city we have taken. I believe all the others were ex-Persian cities.
 
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