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Jidaigeki samurai mod for MGE

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario Creation' started by Cassius Critzer, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    Here are screenshots of the tech tree that is largely based on Budo and Bushido (the arts of war and chivalry) and it's so very different than standard tech trees that almost seem to be pretending that Civ 2 is a peaceful game when it's a game of conquest. It's not Civ 3 whatsoever.

    Plus your Defense Adviser's casualty statistics for all clans. As you can see some clans have startling losses.

    Then a glance at some advanced military units.

    Plus wonders and infrastructure improvements.
     

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  2. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    More screens like casualty rates. Money is not the problem but where to allocate it so that you can virtually fight six other shadow selves of yourself. No nemesis can be worse than yourself.

    Note that regiments are not invulnerable but can easily lose if you fail to realize that the AI has stacked several and maybe more than two. Thus you can err and bite off more than you can chew. Making an ill-advised assault on a heavily defensible tile with potent robust units can destroy your own elite samurai and their leadership.

    It may look like Sengoku Jidai but the system is entirely different in terms of military units and composition and how they are acquired and the AI is spending money hand over fist to get the best units possible in the shortest time as the other han are also. And they can only do so with an incredibly profitable group of extremely developed urban powerhouses. Takeda almost waited too long to adequate defend his cities yet was surrounded by voracious foes.

    And I am pleased that the AI then builds up 16 cities rapidly and fully develops those in terms of agriculture and garrisons. While initially those are weak, that does not last long.

    Usually mods turn off pollution. That is not the case here...and yet it is not a problem that I have seen. The AI builds to prevent pollution and has very large census too.

    The people are NOT suffering but have the infrastructure they require. How many mods have that? They are well protected in but a few decades. Look at the excellent demographics and most have low or no corruption.

    Rather than have to slowly begin, you immediately have very diverse units and have to choose how to use say ten times 20 so 200 units may be deployed to be put to best use. This is not turtling but a turnkey civilization you inherit and maintain and hopefully expand.

    The AI will immediately attack their neighbors to both consolidate power and expand. This is not a beginner's scenario.
     

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  3. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    https://www.treefrogtreasures.com/c-3947-mongol-empire.aspx
    With just a minimal amount of Mongol units, and using the existing early roster of samurai units, and making earlier cities with less infrastructure, I truly believe we can dovetail what has already been created.

    If we only have an artist for a few days, we can have six Mongol units and that would suffice. Something like this that are blurred and sized and fit into a units.gif and then I can transfer it in into available slots.

    They don't need tech. They don't a map. All they will do is spawn in based on turns as if arriving in a naval invasion and most likely take a weaker city by design to establish a foothold.

    So if you want to see that happen, I need six units. We can make the rest work and not have to mess with the Fujiwara and Minamoto and Taira flags...unless someone wants to make them. We can use the barbarian flag for the Mongols. It need not be overly complicated to be fun.

    We need an amateur artist with Paint Shop Pro or similar to load the Civ 2 palette and transform this into the proper dimensions into a units.gif. There's three appropriate cavalry and maybe two infantry and a Mongol dismounted archer. That's it.

    I can spawn in units and use some of the early ships and then they get hit with some disaster units but still provide enough challenge to be dramatically better than what the samurai can do at that time period. Plus they cannot recruit just rely on spawned units and that will taper. This will eventually stretch them very thin. They could be very hard to extract though based on where they land and take over. If on Kyushu or Shikoku, then that would be a problem for the rest of the samurai.

    Based upon how many cities they take that would then likely alter the spawned in "fresh troops".

    It would be great if the armor was authentic to those invasions but...something is better than nothing,right?

    I can configure one unit to be a double or triple strength unit like an early army of three company class, and the early samurai will be scrambling as making anything close will be way in the future.

    Now that much of the base is established then there is no reason to make it overly complicated.
     

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  4. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    I think there are four Mongol mods but the graphics are so dated. They had this very dangerous given to accidents proto-cannon that they would light and they didn't understand ballistics and it was very crude but it was just as likely to harm their own soldiers. They were rather like a redneck who has what they think is a fireworks dud and then goes to relight a extremely short fuse and it blows up on him.

    I can't see how to use it as it would be like a weak missile or a cannon. They hurled a metal spike with a sharpened end as I recall. I think the vessel was in a teardrop shape.

    Something like this. The hapless soldier would dig a hole and sort of aim it and pray it didn't get wedged and explode throwing shrapnel or kill one of his fellow soldiers.
     

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  5. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    This is doable. Watch the video. I can establish the Mongols at Tsushima Island and that will be their base of operations coupled with new spawned units that come in two waves. And instead of what happened, some will survive and then get reinforcements.
     
  6. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    There is a mod I have always wanted to do concerning the samurai. You see there was no such thing as the "Japanese" but clans and so whenever anyone considered attacking the Joseon since they had an established relationship with the Ming, it was insanity to considering conquering them as they had so many internal conflict issues in Japan. Yet still the Imjin War took place.

    And then meanwhile Tokugawa of all people ends up "unifying Japan" which is an absurd Western Civilization mythical idea as he did not conquer Japan but people gave lip service to the Tokugawa Shogunate and hated it.

    That ends up destroying the samurai and then you have Meiji and the rise of the protozaibatsu and imperialism divorced of Bushido.

    But what if Date Masamune or Takeda Shingen did conquer all the clan territory. Now an incredibly militaristic group of clans is actually under one leader not a faux-Shogunate. If so, they might tear each other apart unless they then look to the Joseon. Now having all samurai under a true Shogunate, then unleash Budo and Bushido combined. Would a valid solidified and unified samurai clans under an excellent leader then be able to conquer the Joseon say in 1750?

    In the west there is the bizarre Last Samurai nonsense when actually Brunet was French. And with later European military advisers and with Budo and Bushido, what happens then?

    Here's the actual history of those many foreign advisers.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_government_advisors_in_Meiji_Japan
    Tokugawa wins and cripples the samurai as he wants a dynasty and no competition. They become horribly weak by Meiji and the edict to dissolve them. Yet then having ruined them over hundreds.of years, then they create a monsterous Imperial Japanese Army and Navy. There is no comparison between samurai and these folks though people link them.
     
  7. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    To me the Imjin War can never work because it's too early. But if real unification happens, and no weakening of the samurai as there is no desire to create a defacto replacement for the Emperor (which is what Tokugawa did). Then that leadership would have totally transformed 1600 on forward and samurai do not not become bureaucrats. That could be Jidaigeki 5.0.

    Date Masamune was a Christian sympathizer who likely had relatives who were secretly Christian and had to hide that fact due to Tokugawa's persecution of Christians. And he was brilliant and honorable and liked European culture and wanted to learn. Undoubtably a Date Shogunate would be benevolent and allows Christianity to flourish. This means earlier adoption of western technology plus samurai culture. Japan does not close themselves off from the West. History would have unfolded quite differently.

    Date Masamune having been the Northern most clan would not have required samurai to split their time in Edo. This means the samurai are actively taking care of their historical fiefs. There are not thousands of ronin and banditry and leadership is present and available.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  8. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    Jidaigeki 6.0 could tell the actual history versus Hollywood. The true history of Brunet and the honorable samurai who didn't reject western culture but wanted to create an amalgam. They knew that the samurai were doomed and that studying just martial arts without chivalry was extremely dangerous. Brunet grew to deeply even profoundly admire them. Brunet was trying to help them retreat to Hokaido and start a new country there and get the French government to recognize them.

    This becomes an two hour gun control film about an American cavalry officer upset about the genocide of the Native Americans. What the heck is that? That has NOTHING to do with history. That has a ridiculous scene where on purpose Japanese heavy cavary charges into a hail of bullets when 300 years earlier at Nagashino they learned not to do that.

    Brunet then becomes this heroic figure in Japan even by those who are opposed to these samurai who want Budo and Bushido. This could be an extraordinary mod that demonstrates not rejection whatsoever of what they had learned from Europeans, but are samurai using Prussian military science too.

    It would be way closer to actual history and maybe these samurai then try to restore samurai lands and take Hokkaido. That would be epic as you have 1870s military depictions of soldiers and everything that made the samurai famous. That would have prevented the Russo-Japanese War and thereafter with Manchuria and WW2.
     
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  9. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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  10. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    This Republic of Ezo with Brunet were strict isolationists. They liked European military science and Budo/Bushido. But they were upset at "gunboat diplomacy" which had forced Japan to open as that violated their self-determination.

    So all the horrors of Japanese imperialism would never have happened. The Republic of Ezo would have had zero desire to ultimately take Manchuria and Pacific Islands. None of which Hollywood discusses in The Last Samurai. But Jidaigeki 6.0 could get it right.

    Note that the corrupt Tokugawa shogunate that is the main problem as they had formed a dynasty when the samurai hated the Tokugawas and wanted to support the Emperor.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  11. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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  12. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    A major aspect of the Jidaigeki mod is to create some sense of historical accuracy concerning the attributes of units within companies, battalions, and regiments.

    640 is a common battalion size and comprised of three companies of 200+ officers, NCO, and standard samurai. Then a regiment had three battalions. The current regiment size was based on 1000 samurai when it should be 1920 samurai.

    Some of this might result in rebalancing attributes. The composition changes over time naturally based upon what units are available. Still this means the regiment ie the Imperial Army's attributes (represented by an Emperor unit graphic), and given how much earlier the Defenders class battalions are recruitable, then should be at least three times stronger(perhaps more given far better technology and a sense of elite units). And that Defender should in testing be bested by the Attacker class battalion under favorable field battles based on terrain.

    As the regiment is all but maxed out then the defender battalion class is too strong. I've been experimenting with this. That has taken up hours and hours of my time. I don't want them to be too weak so I am slow to shave down their values.

    All of that then messes with companies and or cavalry platoon values too. An unbelievable amount of time is spent on number crunching and field testing.

    If you look here, you can see some images of samurai army composition. There are books on the subject. There are genuine limits on what has been translated.
    http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=277195
     
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  13. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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  14. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    A long time ago, I thought how wonderful,yet greatly simplified it would be, if a map was say no longer than ten miles by ten miles. Units would be on that battlefield and then 2 players or two teams of four would deploy and attack, defend, and retreat using tactics and employing famous samurai battle formations. The problem is with ranged weapons and maybe that can only be accomplished with Civ 3 (it has ranged weapons).

    Here is an obscure samurai battle formation illustration showing actual historical lineups.

    This would combine turn based strategy with RTS. Unless you have ranged units in Civ 2 effectively carrying missiles, I don't think it can be done. Those units would be like carriers. Archers, teppo, and cannon would launch missiles and then most likely retreat to a defensible position.

    Ninja actually are treated as missiles.
     

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  15. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Ranged attackers are fairly easy to implement for human players with Lua events. If you want the AI to use them, that will require some work (i.e. overriding the game's AI with your own AI via events). I doubt there is a practical way to do it without Lua, since ranged attacks are something creators wanted for a long time, but (as far as I know) never actually implemented. I think the problem is that land units with the carrier flag don't move the air units along with them, so the "ammo" has to be individually moved back onto the ranged attacker, which is laborious and annoying.
     
  16. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    I think that multiplayer battlefield combat would be a lot of fun but historically with multiplayer, it's extremely difficult to get four or five people who are all available at the same time, let alone seven. That is the kind of thing that makes spouses angry as hours and hours are spent on the computer during family time.

    Still, the Jidaigeki mod will specifically cater to multiplayers by having hundreds or thousands of units prebuilt so immediately battles can be waged. Otherwise time is wasted on a build up period. This is why I wanted multiplayer input so that scenario could be made with proper fortresses and military engineered terrain and proper unit composition of companies, platoons, battalions, and regiments.

    So ranged attacks are likely to be done on a single battlefield as a three or four turn engagement. I doubt the AI would understand how to do this.

    By all means I hope the LUA using folks get it to work. It's irrelevant as many cannot use that ToTPP software for retrogaming. The more requirements you expect of the players, the less players will try to run those mods. You have to demystify what you expect them to do.
     
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  17. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    It's like proper defense versus offense with the AI. The AI loves battalions both Defender class and Attacker class. They make the former in huge numbers and try to protect their cities and company strength units with them like big brothers. And when I gift the AI with Attacker class, they immediately employ them and crush susceptable enemy AI and human company class units.

    But the AI is not smart enough to make Attacker battalions. After making 5 to 9 defender class battalions and some company classs units, typically naginata and now no dachi samurai, they think they are invulnerable. They are saving their treasuries when they should be making Attacker class battalions and try to eliminate the weaker enemy cities. They have trouble with intimindating a human player.

    In some sense they are smart enough when fortresses are premade to alter their progression from fortress to fortress and inch along to either protect their borders or enter human held territory and thus deny resources on that tile. They are doggedly focused on that tactic.

    But without aggressively challenging with Attacker class battalions, they have a difficult time wresting away enemy cities. Whereas the human player can grind them down.

    Apparently the AI gets a score based on accrued treasuries and it thinks that is winning, just like doing general research gets a score. A human player knows these are a waste of time. The goal is neither but domination by taking as many cities as possible.

    The AI is extremely perhaps stupidly focused on contested terrain and will keep attacking forever a single tile because it wants it. It's like Gollum. It wants the precious. Then makes the best company class to take it. But wastes a strong company class like an elite cavalry because they refuse to return to a city to heal. Those elite cavalry then get attacked and die. It's a blunder. And nothing was gained. The objective is to take cities not fight impotently on contested tiles.

    As an illustration, there is a famous Civ 2 nuclear war game that someone left running for a decade. The AI cannot figure out how to take cities but keeps nuking them for hundreds of years on contested territory. That should be a lesson on humans ever allowing an AI to plan and execute battles.
     
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  18. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    Because of this AI flaw, events will fire to send the AI offensive units. They will get the tools they need to solve the problem. But they use a brute force method and leave then wounded even severely wounded offensive units which the human player should prey upon. Attack the softened up target to win. That unit has been kneecapped. Don't fight head on but pick 'em off.
     
  19. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    A human player builds lots of Attacker class and let's them attack in an intelligent way, then rotates them out back to the city, and a fresh attacker unit then attacks, rinse repeat.

    This is a classic Roman legionaire model. The guy at the front can fight intensely for a few minutes, but gets weary, he rotates back to recover and the guy behind him takes the lead.

    The computer AI does no rotation because that battalion is expendable. That ends up with no living veterans.

    What a collosal waste to do that with Imperial regiments. Obviously you do the same thing as those are elite samurai, the best of the best, and you got to keep them and not keep recruiting and wasting them.

    Jidaigeki 1.0 is grindy because the AI recruits plenty of defensive units. A human player grinds away their cities in a siege. You want to do field battles instead where terrain gives you an advantage. I love when the AI blunders and an offensive unit crushes them with minimal hp calculated losses.

    Playing this in multiplayer would be very difficult as experienced human players are going to exploit every error in judgement.
     
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  20. Cassius Critzer

    Cassius Critzer King

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    Yari samurai held very long pikes and this is not readily apparent as the unit slot won't allow a long pike to be shown. Not only did they use them in expected historical ways, but they would also work together and jointly slap down and this would pummel the enemy's yari samurai. So they are not spearmen and they are not like the famous pike scene in Alatriste. They are employing multiple techniques.

    Historical reenactors have done it before but it's dangerous. I've been looking for a clip.
     

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