Joan d'Arc or Napoleon?

Originally posted by irish_soldier


Or Nefertiti (spelled wrong, sorry) who is the most famous female pharoah.

If anything is a throwback to pc it would have to be Japan and Russia. Even though Japan reached its military peak in WW2, Firaxis would never ever pick one of the WW2 dictators such as Tojo or Hirohito (the Emporer). As for Russia, it probably would have made more sense to pick either a Soviet Premier, such as Stalin or Kruschev, or (more practically) Czar Nicholas or Peter the Great, the best known of all of Russia Czars, than little known Catherine, who was just a pc pandering to women (to whom I hold nothing against ;) ).

My final gripe is with England. I would have much rather seen a great English Monarch or Prime Minister than Elizabeth. In my opinion Churchill, Victoria, or Henry VIII would have made better leaders.

I'm forced to disagree. Under the Tokugawa, Japan had over 200 years of peace and moved through the early modern era far more smoothly than anyone in Europe. Under Elizabeth, England became a world power and not just an island for Norman dukes to squabble over. Elizabeth understood crucial power struggles that needed to be handled to put England onto the world stage. Crucial historical events happened during Elizabeth's rule which propelled England into the the modern age and set it up to be a world power. Those things most likely would have happened differently had Elizabeth not been Queen. I think she is an EXCELLENT choice for England, though I would not say she's the best -- I think there are other choices which are equally valid, but i don't think any of them are better.
 
Octavian X said that Joan helped reconquer France when it was in a hopeless position. But all she really did was raise the Siege of Orleans. Joan galavanising the French 'nation' is a modern nationalist myth.
Joan Died in 1329
Paris fell to the English roughtly 1335.

Do you see? There was still a great deal of fighting to be done after Joan's death.

Cepthn said that Elizabeth shaped England into a great power. Again actual events have been exaggerated and magnified by 19th and early 20th century Nationalist Historians. Modern thinking about the period suggests that England was in quite a weak position and only defeated the Armada by luck.

Indeed on a British program "timeteam" (it's usually not very good, but hey) the 'expert' stated that during the battle the English suceeded in sinking ONE Spanish vessal. Also as storms closed in the English fleet was scattered leading many to believe the Spanish had won!

Despite this Elizabeth was a pretty good leader, during her reign the FOUNDATIONS of Englands greatness were laid.

People like Churchill and Victoria shouldn't be Englands leader because they were BRITISH rulers. Honestly don't any of you understand the difference between England and Britain????

Finally Napoleon was a Corsican. He may have spoken Italian but that doesn't mean he was Italian. Trust me. Find a Corsican and accuse him of being French or Italian. They'll probably punch you.
It would be like calling a Texan an Englishman. or something.
 
Originally posted by elfstorm
Cepthn said that Elizabeth shaped England into a great power. Again actual events have been exaggerated and magnified by 19th and early 20th century Nationalist Historians. Modern thinking about the period suggests that England was in quite a weak position and only defeated the Armada by luck.

Indeed on a British program "timeteam" (it's usually not very good, but hey) the 'expert' stated that during the battle the English suceeded in sinking ONE Spanish vessal. Also as storms closed in the English fleet was scattered leading many to believe the Spanish had won!

Despite this Elizabeth was a pretty good leader, during her reign the FOUNDATIONS of Englands greatness were laid.

People like Churchill and Victoria shouldn't be Englands leader because they were BRITISH rulers. Honestly don't any of you understand the difference between England and Britain????

Last paragraph first? Britain, England, both 'types' of leaders are appropriate for the game. Is there a difference? Yes. Is it significant enough to include/exclude leaders in regards to Civ? no.

Elizabeth WAS a pretty good leader. I agree, what was laid during her reign was foundations, but those foundations were ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL to the rise of England as a world power -- a lesser ruler might have 'royally' (haha) botched it all and England would have continued to be a backwater.

As for the armada, a quick blurb from HistoryChannel.com:

The English fleet, under Charles Howard, sailed from Plymouth and inflicted long-range damage on the Armada but did not break its formation. Anchoring off Calais, Medina Sidonia intended to pick up Alessandro Farnese's army in Flanders and convey it to England. But on Aug. 7 the English sent fire ships into the anchorage to scatter the Armada and then attacked the fleeing ships at close range off Gravelines. The battered Armada escaped northward, sailed around Scotland and Ireland while buffeted by storms, and returned to Spain after losing about half its ships.

Your information seems a bit...off. According to THIS account, the scattering of the Spanish line was a DIRECT result of a tactical decision by the English commander. The storms were a stroke of luck, admitted, but it was a defeat for the Spanish as the ships were sent running by a numerically inferior force -- in other words, it was a COLOSSAL embarrasment. This helped solidify England even more as a 'nation' -- which was a rare thing at this time in history. This tradition solidarity was critical in England's future as a world power. But a yet even more crucial point to understanding the armada is that it was not simply designed to crush England's navy, it was an INVASION plan. Foiled, it becomes an even larger loss to Spain. Those ships were loaded to the gills with supplies and men! It was a disaster -- luck or no luck, the initial invasion was clearly foiled by the commanding of the English navy. The stroke of luck came later when plans for a future invasion by spain were dashed by North Atlantic storms.

Philip of Spain did launch another invasion a year later, but it was of lesser size and ill conceived. It was blown back by ill winds before it ever threatened England.

Another bit of luck -- if Elizabeth hadn't ascended to the throne but Mary Queen of Scots had, we wouldn't be having this conversation -- a major reason behind the invasion was to capture Elizabeth and return England to submission of the papacy.

This was long winded. I apologize. :king:
 
Doh!!

I said Joan of Arc died in 1329 and paris fell in 1335!

I OBVIOUSLY meant 1429 and 1435.
The young Henry VI was crowned King of France in Notre Dame in 1436.

To Ceyphn all I can say is I have little interest in Tudor England and will not pretend to know much about it. I merely mentioned the armada as the information was semi-interesting. I KNOW you can find dozens upon dozens of accounts to contradict my one. However that's the point - whats presented is claimed to be a new interpretation. Your account sounds like the one we were taught in school. The traditional one.

It doesn't address two of the major points I made: That the English only sank one ship and that initially many observers believed the Spannish were the victors.

You got your info from Historychannel.com, hardly a reliable source. But then neither is time team.

Point of Interest: do you know who had the biggest warships of the time (in the north sea) and claimed to rule the oceans?
The Danes.
 
While we're on this subject, I think John Wayne should have been the American leader. He's probably better known than any of the others, except maybe George Washington.

As for the French leader, sure, Napoleon is the obvious choice, but wouldn't you rather look at Joan? Too bad her outfits tend to cover her up.;)

The picture of Elizabeth is not very good. I remember her as being a lot better looking.

Wouldn't it be cool to picture animals instead of people when we called up the diplomatic screen? There would be the French Poodle, the English Bulldog, the German Shepherd. Guess America would have a donkey, er, mule that is.
 
From HistoryBuff.com, a site which has lots of interest in showing just how things WERE printed in news stories at the time -- a little different than most sites and a cool idea:

As there were no newspapers at this time, the news was carried by newsbooks published weeks or months after the events. One of the first accounts was in a 24-page newsbook printed in 1588 in Cologne (Germany) by Michael Entzinger. The front page featured a woodcut representing the Spanish Armada sailing off the coast of England (Figure 2). The newsbook is in German and the front page translates as follows:

"A true account of the Spanish Armada or Armaments translated from the original Spanish edition into the high German including the story of how on the 29th and 30th of May the Armada under the command of the Duke of Medina Sedonia, departed from Portugal and how it then, at great risk, arrived in England and struggled in a strait on the 8th, 9th, and 10th of August and also how the Armada again encountered the Englishmen on the open sea after that, on the 22nd of the same month of August." This was quite a "headline" (compare it to modern times when the headline reads "WAR") and was only the introduction to a complete early account of the Spanish defeat. This newsbook represents one of the earliest "first reports" of a significant historical event in a printed news vehicle.

Now, some quick rips from http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/armadadis.html
The Karpeles Manuscript Library Archive:

The Battle of Gravelines
Three great Spanish ships sank that day, a dozen more were badly damaged. 600 Spaniards were killed and at least 800 wounded. The decks ran with their blood.
The Spanish cannon balls were so badly cast that they splintered when fired. Also, the merchant ships were not built to take either the weight or the recoil of heavy cannon. Continual pounding from their own guns put an immense strain on the ships' timbers. Their carpenters had the never-ending task of caulking the leaks. Sometimes the guns were not properly lashed to the gundecks. When fired, the recoil sent the guns bounding across the decks, severely damaging both ships and men. For these reasons, the English ships received little damage. Scarcely one hundred Englishmen had died since the first encounter.


The Spanish were not prepared for an extended battle. They SEVERELY underestimated the creativity and tenacity of the English. This is not to say the English were wholly prepared for the battle -- they were not. Many of the English ships were privateers pressed into service to fight this battle.
The Spanish were supposed to meet up with the Duke of Parma (From Flanders) and did not yet want to fully engage the english. This reluctance cost them the advantage of initiative.

Point here is this: your view is based on a new view, but so is mine. The Traditional View(tm) sees the Spanish Armada as a naval battle. It should, IMO, NOT be seen like this! It was not a wonderful naval victory for the English. It was not a decisive naval loss for the Spanish. But, that works in reverse too. What made it a decisive victory for the English was that they thwarted an invasion. The defense of England was the victor. The thrashing the Spanish armada got by trying to round the North Coast of the Isles removed the threat to English shores by papist countries. THAT'S why i see it as a victory. As a purely naval battle it was just a mess for BOTH sides -- but in the slightly larger view, it was a clear victory for England. It showed they knew how to use the channel to keep the shores of England safe, no matter who attacked.
 
Tha duke as leader! And Don Cherry for the new Canadian Civ!!!!

As for the animal leaders? We could have a lamb for the Greeks, a cat for the Egyptians, a monkey for the Aztecs, and Boa Constrictor for the Zulus!:lol:

Not to stray off topic, Joan is easier on the eyes, but Napoleon had more of an impact on the world.:)
 
Originally posted by bombtrack
Also, why can't we edit our Civ adjectives and titles, like we could in Civ 2? (Yes I know I'm nit-picking)
Anyhow enough rambling, go forth and conquer friends!:king:

You change your name, title, and your empire and its subjects on the screen where you pick your nation... but this was perhaps not what you meant?
 
ah dear cephyn! at last i'm in total agreement with you. As a naval battle the spanish armada was a total mess, for both sides.

I just think Elizabeth was not a particularly good monarch. She's been build up to national heroine status by adoring 19th and early 20th century historians as the founder of the British empire for a number of rather unsavoury reasons.

One of the major ones being that James VI & I who definately oversaw the beginnings of Empire was both Scottish and (possibly) Gay.

Some of the stuff written about that guy defies belief: he's accused of being a coward, of being incompetant etc etc. Really what it boils down to is that a generation of historians found him to be utterly objectionable. Thankfully we live in more liberated times and should re-evaluate his reign.

Also James scored no major military victories to inspire future generations; indeed his foreign policy, shockingly, involved having allies and being on good terms with other nations.

The fool. England never allies herself with Johnny foreigner! Didn't he know that? Long live Lizzie and Little Englanders everywhere!
 
Originally posted by elfstorm
ah dear cephyn! at last i'm in total agreement with you. As a naval battle the spanish armada was a total mess, for both sides.

I just think Elizabeth was not a particularly good monarch. She's been build up to national heroine status by adoring 19th and early 20th century historians as the founder of the British empire for a number of rather unsavoury reasons.

One of the major ones being that James VI & I who definately oversaw the beginnings of Empire was both Scottish and (possibly) Gay.

Some of the stuff written about that guy defies belief: he's accused of being a coward, of being incompetant etc etc. Really what it boils down to is that a generation of historians found him to be utterly objectionable. Thankfully we live in more liberated times and should re-evaluate his reign.

Also James scored no major military victories to inspire future generations; indeed his foreign policy, shockingly, involved having allies and being on good terms with other nations.

The fool. England never allies herself with Johnny foreigner! Didn't he know that? Long live Lizzie and Little Englanders everywhere!

I'll confess my James knowledge is a bit...thin. I haven't heard the slander of him, but nor have i heard any praise. I'll have to do some research, when i get the time. ;) Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

My knee-jerk response at this time would be to say "regardless of whether James was good or bad, that shouldn't take away from any praise Elizabeth gets -- much (not all, of course) of which i feel she deserves"

Again, a knee-jerk response -- maybe I'll change my mind someday ;)

:king:
 
hmmm. Mental note: never post while drunk.

James is often slandered - if you can try and find some older histories (eg. published 1900) for really good examples (though one of the TV programs I saw recently had a go at him. I forget which one though).

If your interested in history then there's nothing like extremely biased old historical accounts for a laugh.

James does tend to suffer from attitudes which slag him off for being effete (pardon spelling), cowardly and Gay (or at least likes some men a bit too much).

No one comes out and says they don't like him because he's Scottish but thats the impression I get from some historians.

But I suppose it's understandable. I mean if you are a Historian writting the history of England who would you rather credit with laying the foundations of the British Empire: a Scot who likes men and likes to avoid confrontation or Elizabeth the red haired English rose who defied the Armada?

If I seem to Slag of Elizabeth alot it's only because I feel she gets built up far too much. For a great English ruler I prefer Edward I, Edward III, Henry V, or even Henry VIII...
 
The way I see it, Firaxis placed leaders only as the most famous chartrers rather than the most important. I mean, Cleopatra? Mau? John D'Arc??? And what about Ghandi?
 
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