JOE-03 - Xenophobia Returns

[armstrong]

Sounds good all in all but...spearmen?

First priority here is to get Axemen up and running and send them to The Unclean for an ass-whuppin'. I would have been happy leaving a couple of Axe's behind for defence rather than Spearmen...but that's just me.

I don't think we'll have any threat's from horse based units (have never seen a barb mounted unit and Mao tends not to build them).

Talamane, you're up next, but in my opinion, the Spearmen should be cancelled for Axes, anybody agree/disagree?

The single spearman is because the queued up warrior automatically converted, and presumably Jkaen didn't want to waste the accumulated hammers. I don't see any problem with building a single spearman, however - we can just make him our Medic. Spearmen are strength 4, which is strong enough to beat up on wounded archers, too. If Mao happens to have horses we'll be glad to have it. We'll have plenty of other axers to beat up on melee types.

What I don't understand is why we're building so many roads! I think this is a personal issue with me, as I've made that comment many times in my other SG, but still... I don't see why we're building roads to resources when we don't need their health and happiness benefits yet, but we could benefit from their improved tiles.

Right now, we're working a grand total of 1 unimproved tile. We have no need of gold's happiness for many turns and no need of the pig's health until Brass Lions grows to size 4. I'd immediately cancel all workers building roads. Please, for my mental health. The gold's happiness is not going to come in any early if you build the road than mine, or mine than gold, but you lose the improved tile yield going road first. Since a gold mine is 7 commerce/turn, building the desert road and than the road on the desert mine will cost us 70 commerce, to save maybe a single worker turn...

Btw, this is in no way meant to disparage the road names, which I absolutely love!

 

[Jkaen]

Its habit, while I am on the way to a resource, I road as I walk

 

[Talamane]

OK, got it. Play/post tomorrow nite.

 

[JesusOnEez]

Note I didnt select a spearman, the work on the warrior autoconverted to spearmen once warriors became obsolete, so we either take the spearman or say goodbye to 40 turns of production, I chose to keep it.

I didn't think the game did that until Axes were available. Fair enough.

 

[JesusOnEez]

What I don't understand is why we're building so many roads!

Up until a couple of games ago, I played like Jkaen, and roaded as I walked to absolutely everything. I have since tried a couple of games, only building roads when I've needed them, but tend to find I end up not having enough time to get all the roads I want built done quick enough. I think I'm still on the side of preferring "road as you walk", as you don't have to worry about building roads later, but time will tell...

 

[armstrong]

Up until a couple of games ago, I played like Jkaen, and roaded as I walked to absolutely everything. I have since tried a couple of games, only building roads when I've needed them, but tend to find I end up not having enough time to get all the roads I want built done quick enough. I think I'm still on the side of preferring "road as you walk", as you don't have to worry about building roads later, but time will tell...

Yeah, I understand the general reasoning (and once you have an army of workers running around late in the game, it's as good or better), but it's just not efficient to do it early on if you're working unimproved tiles... you build roads to do one of 3 things:

1) invest worker turns now to save worker turns later as workers use the roads
2) facilitate troop movement
3) connect resources

For 1 & 2, early in the game the short-term costs (cutting your civilization's output by 100-300%) simply outweigh future considerations. For #3, you can't hook up the resource until you've improved it anyway, so the only cost in terms of worker turn is moving there (as you can road back, if you want.)

Now, I'm not trying to be a jerk here or anything I'm just saying these things with the hope that y'all will call me on whatever silliness I do, too - or, if y'all want to play a game where we don't do that, I'm fine too, just let me know

 

[Talamane]

I road lightly until i have about 3 cities. In particular, for military reasons. The ability of a military unit to reach a square with some moves leftover, and is able to fortify, can make the difference between winning or losing a unit, a mine, or a farm. Everyone roaded like crazy in Civ3 because it made coins, but all the other reasons for roading are still pertinent to Civ4.

 

[Talamane]

Where should the settler go? Any suggestions? Do we want swords? Iron working and exploiting the iron will take quite a few turns.

 

[Talamane]

Sheesh, even with a turn counter, i managed to overplay 5 turns, for a total of 20. My bad.

Barbs are bad and are no doubt putting a dent in Mr Stinky's plans--we need a cheap unit that can bust fog, so archery will be a tech detour. Next player should revolt to slavery to allow whipping, because we have little happiness resources--just gold. Calendar is a long way off. I have gotten archery and agriculture.

Food city should be our next target--an archer is queued up after the rax in Lake Placid for its garrison. Kyoto's silks can be chopped for its library, and can be farmed until calendar.

The big question is whether or not we want to go IW and find iron, and build swords. Swords will greatly reduce our losses in taking Mao's cities, but it's a long way to get there. If we build some libraries, we can hire geeks to stagnate our cities (or allow them to grow very slowly) and get it in a much shorter time, with less coin. To that end, i am starting one farm in an irrigation chain (wheat will be irrigated after Civil Service) to the wheat NW of Lake Placid. Because it's the capital, it can get a little larger before health and happiness become issues. All of this entails a later attack on a more powerful, more heavily defended adversary.

Meditation has only two turns in (on the way to CoL), so a switch to IW is possible or after it is done. We need to decide if we want swords or not. FWIW, I am on the IW/swords/geeks/libraries side of the ledger.

I failed to explore to the north with the copper mine warrior. There is an ax now who can defend the copper and the gold.

IW or CoL?

 

[armstrong]

Okay, this is a got it, though I won't be able to really look at the save until tomorrow sometime, and play Sunday most likely.

I guess we'll need to research it ourselves eventually, but I'd say Code of Laws next. I'm not a big fan of Ironworking - swords aren't that much better than axes, and we have our copper access up.

In order to stay competively in the tech trading business, we're going to want Civil Service sooner rather than later.

One possible path instead of Meditation->Priesthood->CoL is Math->Currency->CoL. This also opens up Calendar (once we get sailing) and Construction.

On the other hand, we're going to want a religion on our island. Even if we don't found CoL (assuming it hasn't been founded via Oracle already), we could use our first scientist to found Taoism if we get Code of Laws quickly enough.

 

[armstrong]

Okay, looking at the save, it seems that our military is in fine shape for now - in 4 turns, we'll have our 3rd axeman, and Brass Lions will be up to 12 hammers a turn, so it will be pushing out new axemen every 4 turns (as well as propping up our economy!) If we just let it keep rolling at that pace, we'll be more than ready for whenever ol' Stinky gets too close.

I think our most pressing goals are (a) expansion and (b) our economy. I see the following techs as being useful to that end:

Religious Track
Meditation->Priesthood (prereq's)
Code of Laws
Monarchy (for Hereditary rule & happiness)
Civil Service

Brainiac Track
Mathematics
Currency
Sailing -> Calendar (happiness)
Construction (catapults, if needed against ol' Stinky)

Frou Frou Track
Alphabet -> Drama (cheap +4 happiness for a cost of 20% commerce)

Additionally, we're going to want to found a religion somehow... given the time table, I don't think getting Code of Laws is realistic. Founding Taoism with a scientist might be, however.

Right now I'm leaning towards heading straight to CoL (and maybe even Civil Service) through the religious path.

I think my objectives are going to be:

1) keep building our army up so we're prepared when we're forced to declare
2) get another worker or two
3) get a settler out
4) get more cottages down in Lake Placid
5) get a library up in "Kyoto"

Obviously, I'm not going to get them all done in 15 turns... but that's my current plan. Anything I'm missing? I'll play later tonight or early tomorrow.

 

[armstrong]

Any comments? I'd like at least one response before I play, so I'll push this off until tomorrow if y'all don't mind... if you'd prefer I just "grab and play" I'm fine with that, but I like to discuss things.

To add to the post above, also on the Frou Frou track is Literature, for the two Epics (our warrior Jkaen is already tough enough to qualify for the Heroic Epic ) and possibly the Great Library, though I don't know if it's worth it without a marble source (I don't think we found one...)

Another thing as well - since the only way we're going to be able to trade for technologies is through pure intimidation, I think it will be helpful to have a large standing army at all times. The cost of this can be defrayed by using it to increase happiness in our cities via Hereditary Rule... and we're the kind of paranoid folk who'd want 8 archers guarding all of our cities

Bah, I can't shut up. In any case, I'll play tomorrow evening

 

[JesusOnEez]

Personally, I'd go for CoL. I think we still may be able to get it. You may be able to micromanage a couple of cities for maximum research for stagnant growth to knock a few turns off (I'm assuming the gold mine is being worked now). Do we have a library in our capital? That'd knock a few turns off as well, especially if we whip the library.

Sorry if we've already got one.

I think we're starting to leave it a little late to build our Axeman army...don't want to leave it too late and end up having to wait for Cat's as well.

Also, it may be worth (if possible) upgrading some promoted units to Axe's and adding them to our army. Remember, the barbs will be giving The Unclean promotions as well, so there units may be strong. If any more barbs attack, use new Axe's and give them city raider promotions, ready for the attack of The Unclean.

Good luck!



Ooooh...went to London yesterday and The British Museum. Brilliant stuff, it's got a lot of sculpture from The Parthenon. Hard to believe it's so old when you see the detail. Incredible. Marvellous museum to visit if you're in London, full of history and great for any Civ Fanatic (Egypt/Rome/Greece feature heavily). Although, I do have to think that these works of ancient art would be better where they were originally intended, especially tomb related stuff...but that's just me!

 

[armstrong]

In 775 BC, the rule of Armstrong II, the Bossy, begins.

Turn 0 (115) - 775 BC

"A farm? What do you mean the people are hungry? I'm cold! Cut down some lumber for me. And get some more servants - who cares about the barracks! Oh, it's almost done? Fine, just finish it first."

"JKaen! I know you're our national hero, but get out there and make sure ol' Stinky isn't hanging around out in the fog."

"Hey Warrior on the Bronze! What's your name? Morimoto? Okay. Get moving and see what's out there to our north!"

"Hey Masaharu! Yeah, you with the pointy stick. Head down to Kyoto, err, Silk Bend to guard it. And tell 'em to build an library!"

Turns 116 & 117 - 760 BC

Ah, our brave people comply with the wishes of Armstrong. We are truly a great people. The barracks is built in Lake Placid, and we begin training more people to work.

"Hey! Gimme some fish! We've been here 3000 years and we haven't even tried it yet! And get to work in those cottages!"

There's a mysterious jungle to our north with strange blue plants our wisemen name "Indigo."

And, unfortunately, some of Qin's filthy men are also poking around.

Turn 118 - 730 BC

Brass Lions is now our most populous town. While they could work in the mines, the loss of life from the dangerous occupation would mean the city would be stagnant.

Turn 119 - 715 BC

Brass Lions trains another crew of axemen, led ably by Hiroshi. He is given the important task of traveling east to watch the progress of ol' Stinky, who appears to be getting bolder... they continue to train more axemen.

Meanwhile, Masaharu spots some very verdant land of strangers - not ol' Stinky's men - to the east. He's ordered to quickly explore, and then return to garrison Silk Bend.

Another band of Axemen, led by Shigeru Miyamoto, explores to the NE, and spots a band of unclean brigands, as well as some cows.

Note that Jkaen is fortified on a non-forest hill - it was the best vantage point from which to watch the lands to the south, but if something comes he should retreat to a forestedhill... we don't want to lose him.

Turn 120 (115) - 700 BC

On second thought, Masahiru's spearmen head back to Silk Bend, just in case. The eastern lands will be scouted by Hiroshi.

((ooc: maybe all these Japanese names wasn't such a good idea - I'm started to confuse myself!))

Turn 121 - 685 BC

We learn how to meditate... "ommmmm." Ah, we could have such peaceful bliss if we didn't have to share our island with these savages!

Ol' Stinky has the temerity to offer us... this...

He is, of course, declined. Armstrong II nearly sent the headless body of the messenger back, but decided the country was not yet ready for war.

Armstrong II orders the wisemen to develop a Priesthood to help teach the people about Meditation.

Meanwhile, we're seeing the extent of the peninsula to our north. It's not large, but thus far there appears to be room for two cities.

Turn 122 - 670 BC

Armstrong II enjoys this new fad of Meditation, and little is accomplished.

In other lands, however, come rumors of a "Stonehenge" being built.

Turn 123 - 655 BC

An axeman moves south to defend our cows.

Turn 124 - 640 BC

Brass Lions trains another unit of elite axemen and continues to do so.

Our northwestern peninsula is now fully explored.

"Settle a city by the clams! And another one by the dyes! NOW!"

Armstrong II draws up plans for settling the lands, two cities: one to harvest the clams, and anothre to harvest the indigo. Despite his insistence, though, the choice will be up to his successor.

((ooc: I don't like how much land is being wasted in this dotmap, so a filler city might be good - but I don't see where else we could put "dye cows" to grab more land. Both of those cities will be very strong.))


Turn 125 - 625 BC

A Priesthood is established. Immediately, they begin plotting to usurp control from Armstrong II. As part of this plan, they convince him to develop a complex Code of Laws by which to manipulate the people.

Another gang of able-bodied workers is trained in Lake Placid. Preparations begin on a caraven to build a fourth city, though there is also much discussion about a library.

Miyamoto and Morimoto's men station themselves in the forest and jungle to the north, to catch any savages before they can reach our cities. They can be recalled if necessary for a war with ol' Stinky.

Turns 126 & 127 & 128 & 129 - 610 BC

Very little happens, though, perhaps out of boredom, Armstrong II orders Miyamoto and Morimoto to switch places. Also, Masahuru's men defeat a barbarian warrior in Silk Bend.

And look: we've trapped ol' Stinky's warrior in the backwoods of our land! We'll need to remember about him, though, when the war starts.

Turn 130 - 550 BC

"Angle? What kind of name is Angle! I'm surprised these savages even have names!"

See as danger approaches Hiroshi the explorer!

Meanwhile, danger lurks in Lake Placid's court for Armstrong II, as well. A cabal of priests bring him a plate of poisoned sea bream. After his peaceful murder, the priests prop up their favored, JesusOnEez, to the throne. Little do they know, he will not be a puppet to their plans...

Post Turnset Discussion

Well, I didn't get the library built in Silk Bend yet. Our army is fairly strong now, and we have some more fog busters out in place:

Code of Laws is coming in in 25 turns at the moment. The settler in Lake Placid will be in three turns (it should have been sooner, but I forgot to work the mine I built for most of my turnset. ) A library after the settler in Lake Placid could speed that up (and as JesusOnEez mentioned, whipping it might be a good idea.)

At the current rate of 15 years/turn, that would put the date at 125 AD - unlikely, but not impossible that we'd found Confucianism.

Oh, I can't remember when, but Jkaen the Brave found some stone in the south. I've put in a few city spots I like (as well as a potential one SE of Silk Bend that needs to be scouted.)

If we wanted, we'll have enough axes to go after Mao now in the next turnset, at least to raze a couple of cities and set him back.

The save and the roster:

JesusOnEez - UP NOW!
Jkaen - On deck, heroically defending the southern forest.
Talamane - Meditating.
Armstrong - Just poisoned.

(SKIP?) Berserks01 - with the new baby.

 

[Jkaen]

I would say its worth grabbing the cities to the east before the northern ones, nobody else is getting to them for a while and it should give us a decent staging point against stinky

 

[JesusOnEez]

"Got It".

Nice turnset Armstrong. JesusOnEez III will be concentrating on troop build-up for the upcoming war against The Unclean, and will probably "train" a couple of troops on the barbarian city on Angle for a couple of free promotions...may be worth keeping as a holding/healing point for our war troops...

I also agree with settling towards Mao for now, but with CoL coming soon(ish), we can Settler spam the rest of our cities soon as long as we build courthouses in them straight away. We'll need Settlers in reserve to take The Unclean's lands as well.

Will play in the next 24 hours.

 

[armstrong]

I also agree with settling towards Mao for now, but with CoL coming soon(ish), we can Settler spam the rest of our cities soon as long as we build courthouses in them straight away. We'll need Settlers in reserve to take The Unclean's lands as well.

The "Here? Armstrong II" and 1s of "Food City 1s?" go together pretty well. In particular, with all of it's floodplains, "Here?" could be cottaged straight off the bat (maybe with a farm or two for faster growth for whipping.) The "Food City 1s" could be a decent settler pump, giving us a settler every 15 turns, at size 2 working the fish & the cows. Neither of these cities requires a border expansion to be useful, which is also nice. "Here?" could also be a wonderful GP city/settler pump, with farmed FP's. So many options!

You could also shift them both 1n. This would give the "Food City" some of one of "Here?"'s floodplains.

JesusOnEez III will be concentrating on troop build-up for the upcoming war against The Unclean, and will probably "train" a couple of troops on the barbarian city on Angle for a couple of free promotions...may be worth keeping as a holding/healing point for our war troops...

I forgot to mention this, but Brass Lions is going to grow to unhealthiness next time it grows. That means, unless we get another health resource on before then it won't be able to work the plains hill mine at all at size 5. So it's most hammers are going to be stagnating at size 4. I see two options you can use to get the most out of the city:

1) Whip the current axemen sometime after next turn (so there's no penalty for rushing on the first round) and then every 15 turns after, trying to keep it between size 3 and 4. Whipping a granary first might be a good idea.

2) Whip the city into prolonged unhappiness, making sure the whips are for only 1 pop each and stopping when the city's pop & happiness is at 1, 2, or 3. Doing this will eventually cripple it's production for a while (but it will still be useful for us for the gold mine, which it can work without growth at size 1.) If you did manage to whip it 4 times during your turnset you'd end up with about 6-7 more axers, which should be enough to put an end to Mao along with our current 5.

Regarding Angle, it will have a lot of overlap with respect to our eastern cities. Plus, it's on a hill... We could keep an axeman in the forest 1w of it though, where they'd constantly just send Archers out at him. When he gets some experience, send him to the front and bring in another rookie axe. This would let us have some Cover II, CRII, or Cover I/CR I axers to use against Mao.

 

[JesusOnEez]

JesusOnEez III settle his huge bum into his throne, and no sooner has his weight creaked into place, word of a new religion being founded reaches his ears. It is called Confucianism. This angers JesusOnEez III somewhat, so he decides that ruling as a tyrant will be the order of the day, to vent his frustration.

Near the barbarian town of Angle, our Axeman defeats a distinctly ripe Archer. This victory allows our Axeman the experience he needs to become an expert at taking cities. He decides to wait at the gates of the barbarian town, in the hope they'll send more fodder his way for sport.

Back at Lake Placid, our Workers are busy chopping trees to help with the construcion of the wood needed by our new Settler to found a new city. The Settler is soon ready to start his trek towards a sight previously earmarked by Armstrong II, and is sent on his way. JesusOnEez III order the Workers to continue chopping to speed up the construction of a Library at Lake Placid.

JesusOnEez III also sends a Worker to Kyoto to chop more wood for construction of a Barracks now that it has a Library. He feels the position of the town isn't ideally suited to military production, but Axemen reinforcements will be needed for the upcoming war against The Unclean.

Our great Spearman, Masaharu, stationed on a hill near Kyoto, defeats a barbarian Archer.

JesusOnEez III gets word that Brass Lions has completed training of an Axeman, and orders that he is sent to escort the Settler heading for Armstrong II's earmarked site.

JesusOnEez III smiles as he thinks of a new strategy to get the most out of his people. Work them to death! He issues a decree to his people, stating that for the good of all, all must work without payment, and without reward. Slavery is introduced. His people rejoice for they know not what it means.

Our great Warrior, Jkaen The Brave, defeats a barbarian Warrior outside Lake Placid. Our outer defences are strong indeed. It pleases JesusOnEez III to see so many barbarian heads on poles, lining the street to his palace.

Our Settler has arrived and will found a new city as soon as a barbarian threat is erased.

Our Axeman has defeated the barbarian threat and a new city is founded. JesusOnEez thinks long and hard regarding a name for this new city, and decides that, with its proximity to The Unclean, it may be a safe haven for his wounded military when the time for war is it hand. With this knowledge, he names the new city, Sanctuary. JesusOnEez III feels that in the future, this will be fine land for technological advance, as its' lands are rich. However, the flood plains are already having an unhealthy effect on its people, so a road is started from Brass Lions to help bring resources to this outpost city. A Library is started here, but will take some time to build until the population increases, and the residents healthy.

Lake Placid has some areas reserved for farming, as such, JesusOnEez issues the order to build a farm.

Several people have died in Brass Lions, but as a result, a Granary is built very quickly. JesusOnEez III orders more Axemen from this slave city.

Our Axemen stationed near Angle finally see some action, and yet another head arrives on a pole for JesusOnEez III's collection. Lake Placid's Library is also finished, and work starts on a Granary.

Our Worker in Kyoto starts a Mine to help with its' production of a Barracks, and also for the production of Axemen reinforcements.

Danger is sensed near Brass Lions. Our Gold and Bronze is under threat, so an Axeman is sent out to monitor the situation. The slaves here a beaten with sticks until they train another Axemen. The slaves unfortunately died in the process, as they were used for the Axeman to practice on. JesusOnEez III's head collection continues to grow.

There is a dank smell in the air.

The Unclean again request open borders and are sent away. JesusOnEez III is angry that not enough troops could be built to mount an attack on this most disgusting of neighbours, but he can taste war in the air, and soon. Brass Lions can pump out Axemen at a fair rate now that Slavery is in place, and he feels no empathy towards the families of the dead populous.

 

[JesusOnEez]

ROOSTER
JesusOnEez - Just Played
Jkaen - Up
Talamane - On Deck
Armstrong -

Berserks01 - Preparing Rusks

Well..for fifteen turns, I don't feel I got a great deal done. Brass Lions can produce Axemen pretty quickly, especially with a bit of whipping, but we still need a fair few more to start a war.

There is a Worker on auto road from Brass Lions to Sanctuary (screenshot didn't come out of that), so keep an eye on it. There are plenty of Axe's about to intercept threats.

Angle isn't playing ball with regards to sending out fodder, so we may as well just raze it when we have four Axemen sitting there...waste a couple of rookie's to weaken it, then take it out with a couple of vets.

Didn't get any more scouting done either...completely bypassed me until I'd finished my turns...sorry.

I decided to stick with CoL despite Confuscianism being founded. We still want Courthouses after all. Also, getting Alphabet will be good before we war, as we may be able to demand a tech or two from The Unclean before the slap them about.

I was hoping it was The Unclean who had found Confucianism, so we could nick his holy city...it's save us founding a religion ourselves, but he hasn't converted so I guess he doesn't have it. Shame.

 

[armstrong]

Okay, things look solid!

A couple of comments:

0. Most importantly, due to a recent whip, Brass Lions is working it's bronze, not it's gold! We need to reassign that right away, it will shave 5 turns off of CoL.

1. I don't think he has much of a chance of losing, but we can promote Masaharu (our spearman protecting a worker outside of Kyoto - I could have sworn I renamed that to Silk Bend! :) to Cover I just to be safe. Though, we might want to save it for anti-melee in case an axeman shows up down there.

2.

Angle isn't playing ball with regards to sending out fodder, so we may as well just raze it when we have four Axemen sitting there...waste a couple of rookie's to weaken it, then take it out with a couple of vets.

Angle's currently working a floodplain and a river grass - so it's only putting out 1 hammer a turn. At that rate, it's not going to send many archers out

I'd recommend moving all of our available axemen (I count 3 free ones, and we also could replace the one in Lake Placid with a quick archer, as it has plenty of fog busters to protect it) to Sanctuary. Stinkers could settle a city at any moment near there, prompting a war - it would be nice to have a force to raze the city right away (and not have thrown away a couple of axers on the barbarian city.) I think we can just leave Angle be for a while.

3.

I decided to stick with CoL despite Confuscianism being founded. We still want Courthouses after all. Also, getting Alphabet will be good before we war, as we may be able to demand a tech or two from The Unclean before the slap them about.

I don't know if we could get anything from Mao. He outranks us in power, so he'd probably just refuse any demands. I don't see the use of alphabet unless we plan to go for Literature/Drama quickly. I'd rather see us work towards Monarchy to grow our cities, or Civil Service. I like Monarchy for happiness control as it will make us maintain a big army - which will eventually make Alphabet useful for demands... but Monarchy first, unless we want to build the Great Library?

4. I think we should assign a scientist right away in Kyoto/Silk Bend, and a second as soon as it's borders expand and it can work the wheat. I think our only chances for founding a religion are 1) scientist for Taoism or 2) founding Islam by brute research. I'd really not like to waste turns researching Divine Right (it's completely dead end, and the wonders aren't very useful from what I can tell) so I think if we want a religion before Astronomy we're going to need to get a scientist ASAP.

Also, when that mine finishes in Silk Bend/Kyoto, why don't we cottage or farm one of the silks? Since we're not going to give our precious silk to the unclean (they don't deserve good pajamas!) we'll only need one, right? A cottage now will be just as good by the time alphabet comes in, I'd think, and better in the future...

Hmm.. if we do go the Alphabet route, we could grab Music and use the Great Artist from it (assuming we get it first) to found Islam... it might be an interesting idea, I've never tried it before...

Just kind of stream of consciousness here, take whatever ya will from it