Jotnar Balance and Discussion

Wild Trolls can build Roads... not bad except Seakin trolls can build roads in water. :)

Also I have 2 Citizens, 2 huscarles, 2 wild trolls, and a worker with only 1 city. I don't think I got them too fast, just seems like a lot for 1 city. Do Workers and Wild trolls not count against the max?
 
its 93 turns and i have 22 jotnar citizens (5 morphed to units) + egrass + bunch of warriors. huge commerce output and incredibly high production. + u get too many slaves (2-3 per turn atm from barbs)
 
Egrass the founder can build roads, but can not do the "Build road to" command. Have to step into each square then click the build road command. No functionality loss, but annoying.

Seakin's fishing improvement is neat. Makes a big difference even on bland coastlines square. Makes coastal cities an actual option.
 
I have a cyclops (1st I ever made in any version) that has channeling I and Growth I but can not cast it. I do not have creation mana and JUST researched KoE. Don't have Alteration yet.
 
Answering these more or less in order:

1. Right now it is at 2.5 food per population. Econ is broken, no question. I've been dialing it back as I test. I'll keep dialing it back with each successive patch until everyone except Warkirby is happy. :lol:

2. Roads on coast hexes is a known quirk. Could be blocked if needed...but Valk and I were both sort of amused by it.

3.. The limit is determined by counting units with the Giantkin promo, so wild trolls and workers do count.

4. Enslavement chance is the exact same as you would get with slavery. Easily dialed down if needed, but its utility varies greatly depending on your game settings. 22 Giants on turn 93 is a bit high...sounds like we'll dial that back down a bit.

5. I have no idea why Egrass can't "build to". I'll look at it, but I believe he has always lacked that ability.

6. Cyklops is a divine unit...KOTE shouldn't have any bearing on it. It worked in my test version... Stupid question, but are you in a city? Have you already cast this turn? Are you in the middle of spreading the word?
 
Well, as long as roads can ONLY be build on coasts, not oceans, then, well, they ARE GIANTS.
 
Answering these more or less in order:

2. Roads on coast hexes is a known quirk. Could be blocked if needed...but Valk and I were both sort of amused by it.

k. Kinda funny. As long as you all know about it.

4. Enslavement chance is the exact same as you would get with slavery. Easily dialed down if needed, but its utility varies greatly depending on your game settings.

I kinda agree. Seems like about every other fight I get one. Seemed high but they are pretty useless arnt they? The race doesn't lack worker type units, I saw they can upgrade to warriors or scouts that can't attack. Do those ever upgrade or do they stay there?

5. I have no idea why Egrass can't "build to". I'll look at it, but I believe he has always lacked that ability.

not game breaking, like I said just annoying.

6. Cyklops is a divine unit...KOTE shouldn't have any bearing on it. It worked in my test version... Stupid question, but are you in a city? Have you already cast this turn? Are you in the middle of spreading the word?

I didn't think KotE would matter but I thought I would mention it. I have RoK for a religion but got it just before I made the cyclops which upgraded in my capital where my religion had not spread to yet. I don't have spread the word yet. Not sure I am missing a tech (I haven't done any of the priest tech line yet not sure if that matters) was DEFINITELY in a city, tired both in case it was an issue of religion not present. Not an issue of it being greyed out. The button to cast it just isn't there.

I noticed my Seakin troll USED to have the ability to cast capsize and soak but now neither show up anymore.

Attached save game
 

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k. Kinda funny. As long as you all know about it.



I kinda agree. Seems like about every other fight I get one. Seemed high but they are pretty useless arnt they? The race doesn't lack worker type units, I saw they can upgrade to warriors or scouts that can't attack. Do those ever upgrade or do they stay there?



not game breaking, like I said just annoying.



I didn't think KotE would matter but I thought I would mention it. I have RoK for a religion but got it just before I made the cyclops which upgraded in my capital where my religion had not spread to yet. I don't have spread the word yet. Not sure I am missing a tech (I haven't done any of the priest tech line yet not sure if that matters) was DEFINITELY in a city, tired both in case it was an issue of religion not present. Not an issue of it being greyed out. The button to cast it just isn't there.

I noticed my Seakin troll USED to have the ability to cast capsize and soak but now neither show up anymore.

Attached save game

The slaves you convert to warriors can eventually become slightly nerfed axemen that can attack. You need code of laws to build the Jot barracks that allows that. Thrall guides (scouts/hunters) can be upgraded to Thrall cultists.

The buttons not being there...that is a bug. I'm on pathetic dial-up, but I'll try and have a look at your save game.
 
Happily the spell thing is NOT a bug.

The answer was in your event log. "Turn 79: A player has cast Arcane Lacuna"


:)
 
I totslly missed that. Thank you. Just went back and looked... yup can cast now.

Sorry about that.
 
Oh yes, what DOES wisdom of the Ancients do? It says it creates units in cities with Council of the Warcheif.
 
Also, why do Jotnar get +1 food from Ice?
Edit: So the Jotnar lost the Wall of the Covenant? That sort of this should RELLY be listed somewhere-I tried to beeline it.
Althought, the Palaces do look interesting.
Edit2: Also, the complete lost of religeos Heros is a farly large blow. There units are tought, but only getting 1 hero (who's not a monster in a fight) is rather weakaning.
 
1. Wisdom of the Ancients. World Spell. Doubles the current experience of all your Giantkin units. LIke all the best world spells it is most useful late in the game...but can bail you out early.

2. Egrass...I don't think I did anything that would change that. Very odd.

3. +1 food from Ice is in there for once The White Hand is a playable religion. That is meant to be a strong choice for the Jots.

3a. Yes, the wall should be documented along with all my other changes. I'll get to that, I promise. :crazyeye:

4. Religious heroes is a balance issue and a flavor issue. Religious heroes provide an interesting, powerful unit for most civs. Every single giant has the potential to be an interesting, powerful unit...so the religious heroes are both silly-looking and unneeded.
 
Few things I found while playing.

1. Is egrass the founder Supposed to be able to upgrade up the divine line? He became hero of foxford for me, and then later I was able to upgrade him to a speaker (not sure this is right - but the one that is available at priesthood). After the upgrade he was no longer able to improve my land anymore, but... not sure if that actually matters when he can suddenly have strength 6 base (strength 10 base by the time I upgraded him - +2 from old giant, +2 from heroic attack/defense)

2. You have stated that there is a new unit available down the archery line (an upgrade from weilder). However, in my game the archery tech tree is blocked. I am able to build hurlers and one other unit at engineering, both with ranged attacks, but am not able to build any units with ranged attack. Horse line is also blocked, as stated (and poisons unblocked). Also on the note of stating things, food required is 2.5, not 2.25. So what happens when the jotnar run sacrifice the weak?

3. City spamming still VERY viable. Courthouse gives -40% maintenence, barracks -20%, basilica -40%, and having one stormkin promoted giant in each city casting that wind spell thingy gives another -10%. And thats not counting the 5%'s from law mana. Even without going order or building law mana nodes, you will probably have a minimum of -75% maintenence reduction from the 2 buildings, the spell, and the 1 law mana source provided. Going order you can skip the unit and still get -110% from basilica, courthouse, barracks, and 2 law mana nodes (palace and holy building). The only major nerf to city spamming is the inability to upgrade citizens to settlers. This however is countered by the artisan promotion. Just stick a bunch of citizens who you haven't bothered upgrading in a city and presto, you have more production than a dwarf with a full vault and fields of mithril in every square. And on this note - just upgrade a huscarl per city, give him the air mana upgrade, have him cast the spell, and let him give -10% maintenence and +2 hammers in the city he is stationed in (and provide a nice big meatshield to stop attackers. (also, what is up with the buildings providing mana and city maintenence reductions? Considering that they now have the freedom to spread great distances and can live fairly well in most enviornments, why do they need mana providing buildings?)

4. Having thrall militia no longer able to be built once you can build thrall axmen kinda sucks - militia costs no maintenence costs, axmen do. Also on the subject of militia - when a unit captures a slave, the slave gets aptitude. Then once you upgrade him to militia, the militia now has aptitude. If it weren't for the increadiably slow rate at which aptitude gives xp (and if it weren't for the fact it was on thralls) this could be a bit dangerous. Note - the dovollio have the same ability.

5. You changed the troll effect promo from +1 defense to +1 attack, but didn't revise in your posts. You may want to consider changing it back (after all, random wild trolls are more dangerous if they are stronger attackers - a good defense should be a good offense).

6. The 100% trade route income is visible in that I get 100% bonus, but it doesn't state that there is a 100% trade route bonus income. You may want to add in that display item. Also, I didn't look to closely, but it appears that when I get a 50% bounus from buildings, etc, I remain at 2 commerce per trade route instead of going up to 3 commerce - just checking to see if this is how it is supposed to work.

7. The coastal changes are very powerful - especially since sea farms can find new resources. +4 food on coastal tiles with lighthouse and sea farm may be a touch OP. (and thats not counting the +3 commerce before financial). +5 food from a freshwater lake is also a very large bonus (needs to be next to sea and freshwater lake to get this though). By turn 150 or so, all 10 of my sea farms was either on a resource or had discovered one.

8. Seakin (and reavers). Specifically, they can go on ocean tiles. Before optics is discovered. So they can cross the globe and get a first snatch on circumnavigating the globe before anyone else. It doesn't do them any good, but it does deny it to other people.

9. Traditions + slavery = lots o slaves. When still slaves, they can be sacrificed for hammers, but once upgraded to thrall militia, can no longer sacrifice for production. Was this an intended change? (btw, capturing frostlings leads to very powerful militia - they remain frostlings and get +1 cold combat :lol:)

10. Blacksmith gives free armored promotion to units. Except it doesn't. And there is no armored promotion in the civilopedia. What is this supposed to do?

11. Last thing. The kindred promotions. Umm... I get the general idea of what they are supposed to do as far as the +2 fire etc. However for the spells that are enabled by age, there seems to be a few issues - namely, there are conflicting things here and in the civilopedia as to when certain spells are able to be cast. Example - pillar of fire. Looking that up in the civilopedia, it states that age 200 is needed (giantkin 3) to be able to summon. Here it says that it needs efreet (age 100 and unlocked at rage). As I haven't gotten to rage yet, which is it?

Hope my input helps

-Colin
 
Well, as long as roads can ONLY be build on coasts, not oceans, then, well, they ARE GIANTS.

My thoughts exactly. :lol:

Few things I found while playing.

1. Is egrass the founder Supposed to be able to upgrade up the divine line? He became hero of foxford for me, and then later I was able to upgrade him to a speaker (not sure this is right - but the one that is available at priesthood). After the upgrade he was no longer able to improve my land anymore, but... not sure if that actually matters when he can suddenly have strength 6 base (strength 10 base by the time I upgraded him - +2 from old giant, +2 from heroic attack/defense)

2. You have stated that there is a new unit available down the archery line (an upgrade from weilder). However, in my game the archery tech tree is blocked. I am able to build hurlers and one other unit at engineering, both with ranged attacks, but am not able to build any units with ranged attack. Horse line is also blocked, as stated (and poisons unblocked). Also on the note of stating things, food required is 2.5, not 2.25. So what happens when the jotnar run sacrifice the weak?

3. City spamming still VERY viable. Courthouse gives -40% maintenence, barracks -20%, basilica -40%, and having one stormkin promoted giant in each city casting that wind spell thingy gives another -10%. And thats not counting the 5%'s from law mana. Even without going order or building law mana nodes, you will probably have a minimum of -75% maintenence reduction from the 2 buildings, the spell, and the 1 law mana source provided. Going order you can skip the unit and still get -110% from basilica, courthouse, barracks, and 2 law mana nodes (palace and holy building). The only major nerf to city spamming is the inability to upgrade citizens to settlers. This however is countered by the artisan promotion. Just stick a bunch of citizens who you haven't bothered upgrading in a city and presto, you have more production than a dwarf with a full vault and fields of mithril in every square. And on this note - just upgrade a huscarl per city, give him the air mana upgrade, have him cast the spell, and let him give -10% maintenence and +2 hammers in the city he is stationed in (and provide a nice big meatshield to stop attackers. (also, what is up with the buildings providing mana and city maintenence reductions? Considering that they now have the freedom to spread great distances and can live fairly well in most enviornments, why do they need mana providing buildings?)

4. Having thrall militia no longer able to be built once you can build thrall axmen kinda sucks - militia costs no maintenence costs, axmen do. Also on the subject of militia - when a unit captures a slave, the slave gets aptitude. Then once you upgrade him to militia, the militia now has aptitude. If it weren't for the increadiably slow rate at which aptitude gives xp (and if it weren't for the fact it was on thralls) this could be a bit dangerous. Note - the dovollio have the same ability.

5. You changed the troll effect promo from +1 defense to +1 attack, but didn't revise in your posts. You may want to consider changing it back (after all, random wild trolls are more dangerous if they are stronger attackers - a good defense should be a good offense).

6. The 100% trade route income is visible in that I get 100% bonus, but it doesn't state that there is a 100% trade route bonus income. You may want to add in that display item. Also, I didn't look to closely, but it appears that when I get a 50% bounus from buildings, etc, I remain at 2 commerce per trade route instead of going up to 3 commerce - just checking to see if this is how it is supposed to work.

7. The coastal changes are very powerful - especially since sea farms can find new resources. +4 food on coastal tiles with lighthouse and sea farm may be a touch OP. (and thats not counting the +3 commerce before financial). +5 food from a freshwater lake is also a very large bonus (needs to be next to sea and freshwater lake to get this though). By turn 150 or so, all 10 of my sea farms was either on a resource or had discovered one.

8. Seakin (and reavers). Specifically, they can go on ocean tiles. Before optics is discovered. So they can cross the globe and get a first snatch on circumnavigating the globe before anyone else. It doesn't do them any good, but it does deny it to other people.

9. Traditions + slavery = lots o slaves. When still slaves, they can be sacrificed for hammers, but once upgraded to thrall militia, can no longer sacrifice for production. Was this an intended change? (btw, capturing frostlings leads to very powerful militia - they remain frostlings and get +1 cold combat :lol:)

10. Blacksmith gives free armored promotion to units. Except it doesn't. And there is no armored promotion in the civilopedia. What is this supposed to do?

11. Last thing. The kindred promotions. Umm... I get the general idea of what they are supposed to do as far as the +2 fire etc. However for the spells that are enabled by age, there seems to be a few issues - namely, there are conflicting things here and in the civilopedia as to when certain spells are able to be cast. Example - pillar of fire. Looking that up in the civilopedia, it states that age 200 is needed (giantkin 3) to be able to summon. Here it says that it needs efreet (age 100 and unlocked at rage). As I haven't gotten to rage yet, which is it?

Hope my input helps

-Colin

I'll answer the ones I can here...



2. Are those techs still blocked? I was under the impression that Vermicious unblocked them... I may have goofed during the merge there.

3. Most of those bonuses are there for other civs as well. ;) The Jotnar used to get a rather large reduction from their civic... That's been moved to Distance, rather than Number of Cities. As for the buildings.... They were one method of dealing with the complaint of not having a worldspell. The other is the worldspell they've been given, of course, although it can be a rather weak one (With the potential to be devastating of course).

4. Maybe Thrall Militia should be NeverObsolete?

8. Hmm. This should probably be changed, but I'm not sure there's a way to have a promotion allow access to a terrain, at least not atm. I know Cyther did it for his mod however, so it might be something to look into.

10. :p This promotion is actually invisible atm, should probably change that... It does nothing in and of itself. Instead, it grants permission for the unit to gain the Bronze/Iron/Mithril Weapon promotions. Doesn't affect Melee, but Recon/Arcane/Divine/etc? You bet. :goodjob:

11. If the Pedia has it in the requirements, it's probably correct. The list isn't up to date yet.
 
yeah, saying that armored allows a unit to gain weapon promotions would have made things make alot more sense. You don't need to make it a visible promotion - but if it remains invisible, you need to make a civilopedia link from the trait that states that that is what it does.

Thrall militia - yes, it should be never obsolete. Actually, on that note, what strength levels are they supposed to be? Thrall militia strength 3, thrall axmen strength 3+metal? (not that the metal affects hephesteus, as even thrall hunters can get mithril weapons...)

as for why I bring up number 3. You stated that you were trying to prevent city spam. With the jotnar, it doesn't matter what you do to change the distance maintenence or number of city maintenence bonus, if you don't change the fact that they can drop off 70% of the maintenence following any religion and without the use of law mana, or 110% of the maintenence following order. This is compared to any other civ's able to drop off 40% without order, or 80% with order. That last 20% makes a bigger difference than the first 80. So without changing that, the only major nerf to the jotnar city spamming tactic is the inability to upgrade citizens to settlers. On the other hand, the sheer number of giants now available with fewer cities also means that you don't have to spam till the end of time to be able to have a competitive military.

As for giant numbers - you probably need to cut the spawn rate down by about 1/4-1/3. As it is, about 5-10 turns after founding a new city, I have reached the next level of giant cap. During peacetime, this means more workers and more hammer. During wartime, this means that the only thing limiting my warpower is my money chest - aka, there aint much limiting me.

And one other little thing. Why aren't workers allowed to take water affinity? It would make much more sense to give a worker water affinity than have to upgrade to a troll (who might go rogue), just to have someone to plant sea farms.

-Colin
 
Hmm... my seakin troll an NOT enter ocean squares. But then I don't even have sailing, just fishing, as I am playing a small water percentage map.

I LOVE the Sea-farm. I think it builds too fast. Same with roads. I am building a road in the water in 1 turn and a Sea-farm in 2 turns. Makes it very easy and fast to put a sea-farm in every water square in my culture. 1 seakin is all I need. Maybe increasing the build times or giving Seakin a reduction in Work rate might be appropriate.
 
You need Atronamy to enter Ocean tiles with Seakin. As such, the Jotnar don't get any particular advantage.
Also, I think they should get seaserpants back: their use as buildable raiders is powerful.
 
Hmm... after further testing, the seakin aren't able to enter ocean squares, even ones in your own borders. However, reavers are (in their longships). And I didn't have astronomy yet (and no intention to get it as I was playing a flat pangea map). I guess I was just mixing up the giants for the first one. As the longships aren't able to carry other things though, I don't find it too OP.

-Colin
 
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