Journal of a random game.

[Bede]

Personally I don't build wonders at all until the IA, or maybe Magellan's if I hit a lucky streak and have a productive coastal town that doesn't need to be building anything else, or Smith's in an inland town under the same criteria.

Course that doesn't count if I am trying for a 20K victory.

Concur on the war plans.

 

[Turner]

@shumble
Science Great Leader. Which can only be gotten through research of a tech no one else has/first techs. Very rare, they can be used to rush any wonder or increase research by 25% for 20 turns (I think those are the right numbers) but not build armies of course. They don't have SGL's in plain civ?

<snip>

You don't think I should hold my SGL for a golden age science boost? Yeah, pyramids is a very tempting target. I just wish I knew how close the AI was to finishing one so I could risk the time for a newly placed town to get it (for the per turn culture effect)

Scientific Golden Ages, sparked by the SGL, are broken. All SGLs are really good for is rushing wonders.

 

[TruePurple]

Should I switch from republic to monarch before going to war?

Should I attack maya first? They planted a city on the icy tundra area by boat right before I could get a settler there. I am expanding culture to get them but so are they.

 

[Turner]

Depends. To wage sucessful wars in Republic, you must win a lot. If you don't think you can win, and/or have a lot of luxs, marketplaces and gold to spend on happiness, I'd switch over to Monarchy. Commie would be better, if it's later in the game.

War Weariness can ramp up quickly, but it's also manageable if you have the resources for it. Universal Sufferage and Police Stations help too. But I don't think you're that far along, are you?

 

[TruePurple]

Not that far at all. I'm also spending alot of maintenance even though I need more fighters and workers.

and/or have a lot of luxs, marketplaces and gold to spend on happiness

If you have those things you should stay on republic right? I'm a little confused by your phrasing.

I could also switch to feudalism. Is there ever any reason to use feudalism?

Should I attack maya first? They planted a city on the icy tundra area by boat right before I could get a settler there. I am expanding culture to get them but so are they.

 

[Turner]

It's not so much that if you have those you should stay in Republic, but having those makes it easier to do so. Because Luxs=happiness. Marketplaces make luxes more effective. (2 happy faces for 2 luxs, 6 for 4, 12 for 6, and 20 happy faces for 8 luxs.) And of course gold to spend on maintenance or whatever because you have a lower income, because you have to increase the lux slider.

I've never used feudalism, so I don't know how effective that would be. What you could do is create a save just before you pic your government, and have one set of saves going down the feudalism path, and one down the monarchy or republic path, which ever you choose.

Now, you really only need the luxs/marketplaces/gold if you're losing the war. If you've got a superior force, aren't loosing too many units in enemy territory, not loosing cities, then you don't need as much of the luxs/marketplaces/gold, because WW will be tolerable. But when it goes the other way, you counter the WW with luxs, marketplaces and gold.

 

[Tribute]

Since the Maya used a boat to settle that town, you ought to just destroy it without going into anarchy.

This means they are quite far away.

Since you are expected to only have minor to no losses, there is no reason to revolt.

But you should make peace as soon as possible and may have to give into some other AI's demands since they'll see you as more vulnerable during a war.

 

[Bede]

You should know where the Maya are.

Is that town a particular threat to your current plans? If it is take it out then make peaceful noises with the Maya. Don't bother switching governments. The up to 7 turns lost will be way too costly for a short war.

You can fight a war in Republic for forever if you manage it right. I kept one war going for over 100 turns in one recent Emperor game and had zero war weariness problems. Picked my battles carefully, used combat settlers to keep expanding my borders so I never had troops outside my territory unless they were moving in for the kill, lost but one town. Course I had all the luxuries I needed, markets and courthouses everywhere I had towns larger than six, I did have to build a temple in a couple of really corrupt towns, started the war with cavalry and ended it with tanks and Mech Infantry (which shows I never missed a research lick).

But the kind of war you are talking about is a walk in Republic. Make it short and sweet and you are golden.

On Feudalism: it is a very specialized government for a very specialized set of circumstances, none of which apply here. All of which is too much to go into right now.

 

[TruePurple]

The Aztec started moving troops into my territory and of course when I said "leave or declare war"... no surprise there. Decided to stay in republic.

Its been a protracted war, alot of back and forth with the horse city trading ownership multiple time. Sometimes I make mistakes in situations like this just because of the pure tedium of it. Which is why I decided never to play a huge map again. (except that one game if it can be fixed..invested so much already)

Lost once city to Maya via culture. Oh well, it was a minor border city.. Maya planted another city in the void left by my enemies destroyed city.. A nice spot. Ill have to.. talk.. to the Maya about moving my settler there instead.

Anyways almost got ahold of Aztecs wonder citys (just in time for the GL to expire!) Cut off all their lux I know of (well one city has a lux) Moving in settlers to fill the void.

Dispute all the fighting.. no MGL's Oh well, I did get that SGL!
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If you have a city thats one native pop and one foreign pop and you turn that city into a settler, what kind of settler will it be? What kind of pop will it have when you plant it? Will it have a maintenances cost as a settler?

Also, now that the wars winding down I'm giving thought to placement of FP, I want to place it more on the west side where the Aztec void is going to be. Maybe even in the Aztecs wonder city (tourist attraction income suffers corruption right?) But it will take time to build such cities up to build a FP in a reasonable amount of time.

What do you recommend for FP placement? Is there a general square distance rule of thumb for FP placement?

For the purposes of war weariness and getting set up in the Aztec void (if Maya doesn't beat me to it, did move a bunch of troops in that middle city) how long should I wait before starting war with Maya?

They are very large now. They had a war with Inca (who wanted a MA against them with me but I had my hands full at the time, not sure if they would try again, they are somewhat weak now) If I fought them for a city or two I doubt they would be willing to take a sue for peace. Well not without paying through the nose.

BTW I'm at war with the Iroquois when I refused their demand threat. Was at war with the Zulu too, they MA against me.. shortly after I had given them a free tech for a polite relationship. Not that either "war" effected me much on the other side of a ocean with ship tech being so low at the moment. After time Zulu gave me peace for 20 gold, might have been less if I had held out longer.

Anyways the question... does being at war with them cause war weariness.. even though theres no fighting? They want alot for peace, even after so much time has passed. Eventually real ship tech will be reached and its going to be a real war and I want to deal with the maya first.

 

[TruePurple]

I take it you got board with this bede? Anything to do with how long I made that post or how many questions I asked?

 

[Bede]

Not bored, but busy.

FP should go in the most productive city with the greatest growth potential, distance from capitol does not matter much in C3C as it does not create a second core.

Settler abandoning a city with any alien pop transfers a boatload of unhappiness to the closest town or it follows you around like a bad smell. in general it is not a good idea. Better to raze on capture or starve into submission and keep.

Aztec war weariness will not transfer to Maya.

If the Zulu declared on you and can't reach you so you have no losses you get war happiness. So you can let it run forever or wait until you can end it on your terms.

 

[Gyathaar]

Dispute all the fighting.. no MGL's Oh well, I did get that SGL!
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Did you rush a wonder with the SGL yet? You cant get a MGL while you have an unused SGL (the oposite does not apply thou.. you can always get more SGLs even if you have a MGL and multiple SGLs)

 

[TruePurple]

Yes I did, before I started my first battle. Put it in the wrong city, should have put it in ivory hills for a super commerce city (from the tourist stuff) instead of "fur trading outpost". I had to abort my war with the aztec before I could get their silk or wonder city because maya were trying a sneak attack. Aztec and Inca are now fighting the maya with me. Both had to be bribed for a military allience. Inca twice because they quite the war early before the MA was up.

The Zulu rejoined the Iroquois in a MA! even after I gave them even more free tech when we signed peace. *sigh* Still haven't seen heads or tails of the zulu. The Iroquois have landed a ship full of knights on my shores a couple of times. Got lucky and was able to take them out before they could take any of my behind the lines undefended cities. The second time because I finally got a army and it had enough moves to go all the way from the front lines to take out the knights.

I'm going to hold off my war on the maya a bit and fortify some of my cities with knights. The Aztec have been sending a stream of troops up which will give me breathing room. Trying to rush up the tech tree to get to my UU. Current situation noone has offensive boats. With offensive boats I can defend my shoreline without troops in every city along the shore.

Not sure if I should pay for peace in the mean time.

While I'm rushing up the tech tree best as I can, the maya and Iroquois have a tech lead and probably will remain in the lead (least till I beat the maya into weakness). They do almost no tech trading with neighbors so I can't really trade any tech. Well the maya now are at war with their neighbors and had no contact with the Iroquois before but even at peace they didn't trade tech with neighbors. (because these two were so much bigger then their neighbors.)

@bede
Distance still factors in though right? So whats the best distance from cap for the FP, generally speaking?

 

[Bede]

No such thing as "best distance".

I've put it right next to the capitol 'cause then I have two cities with 0 waste and corruption.

Your best choice is a city with growth prospects to twelve and lots of commerce and shields.

York or Fur Trade look to be the best choices based on the last save.

 

[TruePurple]

Much latter in game, I've been pursuing the Maya for a long time. The Aztec fighting with me for awhile, till they declared peace. The rest of the world is at war with me except for America which has a trading embargo against me. The Iroquois brought the rest of the world into the war against me, including the Inca which have been a friendly, if not weak allie. But since their domain was all mixed up with the Maya.. a crucial early distraction for the Maya.

I entered a military alliance with America against rome, a pathetic little nation who dared to join in the alliance against england.(me) I suppose I could have brought the other nations into a MA against the Iroquois via tech trade earlier. But I was worried that the Iroquois would have eaten them up and become that much stronger and I had the war with the Maya to pursue. I thought if I gifted them with tech they would be friendly enough to stay out of it. BTW the Aztec would have gladly joined the war against me, which I learned when I accidentally left a city defender on the wrong square. But I reverted to a earlier save and positioned the unit right and they didn't declare.

Well anyways, I've already had my golden age. War weariness is eating up alot of progress, despite my success in battle. Using settlers offensively has been of little use since the newly founded city doesn't extend domain to the target city. But I have captured the mayas two wonder cities and am rushing to destroy the cities around them so cultural pressure doesn't revert them. (especially since I've been scared to leave troops in the city else they be lost in the reconversation.)

I wanted to win via diplomacy or space race, but fighting the world makes that seem unlikely. I've been debating giving the maya back its wonder cities and getting it into the war with the rest of the world along with the aztec. I figure they would be more effective in utilizing the land and the wonders then I would because of the corruption factor. If only I could know whether I could trust them to stay with me and not turn around and attack me latter when my attention is diverted.

What do you guys think? Spare the maya and stuff and use them in the battle? Or take over everything and just fight the world till they beg for peace? Here is a save, no picture. My domain is too big to get it in.

 

[Bede]

You can fund your deficit by getting peace treaties with the other continent and selling Steam and Industrialization.

Then hire the Aztec to fight the MAya and Inca with you. They will be sending knights and longbows and such against muskets, and that will be to your advantage and finish them off. If nothing else you can use their territory as a tax farm.

Giving stuff away does not protect you, owing them money or goods will sometimes.

 

[TruePurple]

ACK, write a bunch of stuff only to have my browser unexpectedly close!

Can't sell industrialization, not sure why you think I can. Zulu would buy steam for 125 per turn(they have little actual gold) and peace but they might just turn around and declare war on me next turn (which cancels out the deal, even if peace happens latter on right?) Plus I don't want Iroquois to get steam, ruining the little tech lead I have.

Then hire the Aztec to fight the Maya and Inca with you. They will be sending knights and longbows and such against muskets, and that will be to your advantage and finish them off.

Already had the Aztec fighting with me against the Maya, was glad of our MA evaporating and them eventually peacing the Maya. Was a close call a number of times, who would conquer a city first.

It would take awhile for Aztec to even get the troops up there anyways and I need to move sooner then that before culture flips those cities.

I have Maya on the ropes AND maya are fighting with the Inca as well. The Inca can't even reach me yet because the Maya are between us. Plus wouldn't want to have to wait out a MA for peacing democracy etc, out of the Maya when I get them down to their last cities.

Plus if I'm going it alone the aztec would be my next target, they have two happiness wonders.

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A. I can take over the whole continents and fight the rest of the world on my own. Using their resources, wonders etc.

B. I can peace them and fight with them against the rest of the world.

Option B. would be more efficient, would it not? I mean alot less corruption means the continents as a whole could pump out more troops and earn more tech/gold.. right?

Plus it would be fun to have a few nations on my side, the whole diplomacy thing is suppose to be civs strong suite. And I was hoping for a nato or space race win.

What technique could I use to keep them on my side though?

I take it you are opting for option A? Why?

 

[Bede]

Whafor you think you need that elusive thing called "tech lead"? Don't worry about it. You want the other nations' gold in your pocket so you can pursue the research path to your objectives at your choice of pace.

The only times I have seen an AI declare out of the blue like that was when I had forced them into an SDI recession by selling a military tech for all their cash and a big chunk of GPT and then sold them the enabling resource for another big Chunk o' Change and gpt. The very next turn they came back and demanded gold to cover their deficit. Naturally I turned them down because I wanted the war. And they never really had the chance to regret their decision.....

In general I think the AI are "more honorable" than humans in that situation. You can manuever them into warfare (see above), but they won't declare just ot renenge on a deal unless you force them to it by repeated demands to "leave or declare"

And I do indeed vote for A. Get the home continent under your control and since the Inca and Maya and Aztecs are not SCI there is little advantage to leaving them alive as client states. Then you can consider your victory options, whether space or diplo.

Since England is COM corruption is less of a problem than you think and should it get to that point you can always revolt to Communism. You can also use the May, Aztec and Inca territories as tax or science farms. Pack the towns in tight and make half the population tax guys or science guys.

 

[TruePurple]

I once had a deal with the Maya (different game) 50 or 60 gold a turn for a late ancient tech or something like that. They declared war only a turn or two latter. No demands of getting out of territory or turning down gold demands involved.

but they won't declare just to renege on a deal unless you force them to it by repeated demands to "leave or declare"

If its true they wont declare just to renege.. they may declare just to get some tech etc from Iroquois who have dragged the world into our battle, including the Zulu multiple times. No guarantee they won't do so again early into the payment.

Whats SDI?

As far as tech lead, I was operating in the hundred plus deficit for the sake of turns extra getting a tech. I don't get what you mean no such thing as a tech lead. Especially when it comes to steam. Longer the AI doesn't have it but I do, the more stuff I get out of it that the AI doesn't.(as in more production)

 

[Bede]

As far as tech lead, I was operating in the hundred plus deficit for the sake of turns extra getting a tech. I don't get what you mean no such thing as a tech lead. Especially when it comes to steam. Longer the AI doesn't have it but I do, the more stuff I get out of it that the AI doesn't.(as in more production)

You want the other nations' gold in your pocket so you can pursue the research path to your objectives at your choice of pace.

I generally acquire a new technology just to get rid of it, so I can afford to research or buy the next one. I don't want the AI spending their money to learn something I already know, I want them spending their money on something I don't know, so I can buy it or steal it, or beat it out of their hide.

My least favorite stage of the game is when the AI run out of research gas and I do have the technology lead. They are no longer in a position to help and can only hurt as their continued existence just raises my costs.

At this stage of the game you can get many monies in gold per turn, so take it and use it to fund research and production.

"SDI" refers to Strategic Defense Initiative. Back in the '80's Ronald Reagan funded the SDI. The Russians went broke trying to maintain what they thought was technological and military parity. In 1991 the Soviet Union was no more.