'Journalists abandon standards to attack the Pope'

[ori]

I think it's pretty clear that even if it wasn't intended to prohibit telling civil authorities, that is still how it was interpreted and enforced, otherwise we'd see a higher report rate tham the 24% (i'll re-edit with citation) we see in america (and significantly lower in ireland i'd bet)

possible, though I think most of the cases that make it into the press currently are from well before 2001 (when the Vatican pulled these cases to Rome) and that prior to that it was local clergy that dealt with the cases as they saw fit - and that one of the problems in the Church was and probably still is not so much that they encourage covering things up directly but that the local clergy doesn't have any incentive to aggressively report suspicions and may even have had or still have the impression that a large number of reports (both to civil authorities and to Rome) indicates that someone locally has lost control and should be replaced. But that is just my interpretation. I'd also like to know how many cases actually happened after 2001 or whether there is indication of coverups after that, as well as how if at all reporting has changed. Though its hard to judge since report rates are notoriously hard to quantify.

Edit: as for keeping clergy in the ranks: it has no direct connection to alleged coverups and as far as I understand the Catholic Church local Bishops have very wide latitude in keeping clergy from work in congregations - so that I do not think that please from the US to defrock certain clergy had much of an impact on actual cases - mostly because they could and I would hope did remove these priests from any work involving vulnerable congregants. It does obviously pose other questions, such as whether it was advisable to keep them around as priests for so long for publicity reasons and to show internally that such behavior was not sanctioned by the higher ups - but not so much about whether the Vatican was responsible for allowing them to continue their abusive acts. Of course I could be much mistaken - but at least with the German system I am quite certain that how and where and whether any priest is put to work is almost entirely up to the local Bishop and not up to Rome.

Now of course with me not being part of the Catholic Church my views are mostly informed by published writings and not direct knowledge

 

[onedreamer]

I normally attempt to avoid this forum, because getting drawn into a debate in this wretched hive of scum and villainy never gets anywhere. Nevertheless, I thought that this short article succinctly demonstrates how the media has been infected by an absurd frenzy of making absurd attacks without even an inkling of the facts:



SOURCE

Fully agree, although this forum is used mostly by people who gets overexcited, who gets their daily dose of pleasure exactly from these news and the ludicrous behavior of medias. So if you wanted to not get drawn into debates with such villainy, you kinda chose the worst possible forum.

 

[holy king]

I like how in attempting to make a joke about the matter, you've only demonstrated that you're exactly as uneducated as the author of the first article contends.

he's not joking he's right.
imagine this was the boss of some orphanage organization or whatever. still refusing to step down.

they are going easy on the pope.

 

[useless]

Defending, pedophile enablers.. defending...

 

[Shekwan]

Are all American soldiers guilty because of what happened at Abu Ghraib prison? I'm assuming you'd say no, otherwise you would be utterly insane. Therefore, why would you blame every single member of the Catholic clergy for something that is an extremely isolated incident (insofar that you would not be able to find this type of behavior to be common by any means globally among Catholic priests) among several hundred thousand?

I would hold those who didn't speak up at least partly responsible for what happened, yes. Especially if the abuse happened continuously over half a century. I don't think you fully understand the extent of the abuse in Ireland if you're going to compare it Abu Ghraib...

Its not an extremely isolated incident. Did you even look at the report? 200 institutions with over 800 child rapists. Surely that can only be seen as a failure of the system, an institutional problem. As it was so endemic, I hold those who could have righted this problem, The Vatican, responsible. When theres institutional child rape that is so endemic in any of their regional branches, and they do nothing over a period of decades, then I think the Vatican should be blamed. Not every member of the clergy, but certainly "Head Office" let this happen.

Furthermore, blaming the Vatican for this is rather ridiculous, wouldn't you say, because it's similar to blaming Obama for whenever a public school teacher is indicted for molestation?

Whenever public school teachers are repeatedly found to be raping children, and the public school system moves them from school to school to cover this up, and this occurs over a period of decades, destroying generations of kids, yes I would hold the executive responsible. I think you're dismissing the fact that this wasn't an isolated incident, it was institutional. Its up to whoever is in charge to reform that institution so that such evil is not part of the system. The Catholic Church, be it their Irish branch or The Vatican, have no intention of doing so.

Did you even look at the link I posted? Your analogies are so far off the scenario described by the Ryan Report.

 

[Yeekim]

Did you even look at the report? 200 institutions with over 800 child rapists. Surely that can only be seen as a failure of the system, an institutional problem.

Quite so. Dropping an A-bomb on this seriously depraved island should solve the matter.

Spoiler :

Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[Patroklos]

What is the instance ratio like compared to other similar institutions? Has anyone looked at that?

 

[Yeekim]

What is the instance ratio like compared to other similar institutions? Has anyone looked at that?

I've seen it claimed that the number of pedophiles among priests is about the same level (or a bit lower) than in general male population, but I can't vouch for it.

 

[Shekwan]

What is the instance ratio like compared to other similar institutions? Has anyone looked at that?

Thats a great question. If it is proven that the rate of abuse in Catholic institutions was the same for secular ones, I would no longer see it as a failure of the system.

It would be extremely surprising though, part of the modus operandi of the abusers and their enablers was for those who were found out to be quietly transferred to a similar position elsewhere so as to avoid scandal. Now they may not continue to abuse, but the opportunity is still there.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Journalism has been steadily focussing on grabbing as big a market share as possible, instead of bringing the highest quality of reporting.

Bring the news as Soon as possible, as Sensational as possible and as Simple as possible. That's the ticket to success.

 

[dirtyparrot]

I thought that journalistic standards were already abandoned prior to the Iraq invasion. Maybe they got it back for a brief period.

 

[frekk]

Uhm. The military does indeed police itself to a large extent.

Yes, the military does in some cases, however, the military is a branch of government and it isn't exempt from criminal law; it merely operates in parallel to civil judiciary.

The church does not have any right to judicial powers of government. It is a crime for the church to conceal criminal acts. Any who do so are a party to the acts themselves.

Already responded to what you posted before;

Yes, and I responded to that by pointing out that the guidelines you posted had been issued only a few days ago and were the first time ever that the Catholic church had issued such guidelines (with a source; post #6). You didn't respond at all. You just claimed I had never posted anything or any sources, which any monkey can see is false.

That's yet another amazing demonstration of burying your head in the sand, but it's certainly not convincing.

The commentator being the former mayor, who is neither an abuse victim nor a Catholic loyal to the Pope.

He is a religious activist. Trying to pawn him off as an "independant commentator" is wilfull deceit.

 

[MobBoss]

I've seen it claimed that the number of pedophiles among priests is about the same level (or a bit lower) than in general male population, but I can't vouch for it.

Actually, I have heard the ratio is smaller than in public schools (but that could be counting stat rape and not just pedo), but about equal other religious institutions.

 

[Aegis]

It's pretty funny when a writer for the Daily Telegraph is chastising other papers for their lack of journalistic standards. Talk about the pot calling the kettle 'black.'

I like how he ignores the fact that the basis for Kiesle resigning was because of his pedophilia abuse. In order to decide whether or not to accept his resignation, one needs to take his transgressions into account. He is just as bad as the journalists he chides for reporting half-truths.

[Edit:] Excuse me, the author is actually an American blogger, whose rant is being re-printed by the British news rag.

 

[Riffraff]

I've seen it claimed that the number of pedophiles among priests is about the same level (or a bit lower) than in general male population, but I can't vouch for it.

A related but unrelated point - catholic priests (apparently) have a much higher homosexuality rate compared with the general population.

The connection being, that if the job of catholic priest selects for sexual tendancies in one instance, it might do so as well in a different one.

Obviously the first point relies on some estimates, as proper studies aren't viable for obvious reasons.

 

[frekk]

Actually, I have heard the ratio is smaller than in public schools (but that could be counting stat rape and not just pedo), but about equal other religious institutions.

This report was commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and was based on surveys completed by the Catholic dioceses in the United States. The surveys provided information from diocesan files on each priest accused of sexual abuse and on each of the priest's victim . . .

The consistency of the findings in dioceses across the United States is remarkable: whether region, number of Catholic communicants or number of parishes is used to array the dioceses, the results show allegations of sexual abuse have been made against 2.5% to 7% of diocesan priests. Similarly, whether religious priests are ranked by overall membership o[r] religious clerical membership, the percent of priests in communities who have been accused ranges from 1% to 3%, or approximately half of that of the diocesan priests.

To estimate the percentage of all priests in ecclesiastical ministry between 1950 and 2002 who have been the subject of allegations requires a reliable overall total of priests in ministry during that time period. This calculation was done two different way—first by using the data collected through the Diocesan and Religious Order Profiles and then by using the estimates produced by the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate. [1; notes are collected in a note section at the end of this Web version; after clicking the number to view the note, click Back to return to this point in the text of the report] These different methods both yielded the same statistic: approximately 4% of Catholic priests and deacons in active ministry between 1950 and 2002 have been accused of the sexual abuse of a youth under the age of 18.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay/index.html

 

[MobBoss]

Frekk.

Couple of thoughts on this.

First of all, being accused =/= actual guilt of sexual abuse.

Secondly, due to the hugely inflated media attention directed at the Catholic church, plus the amount of money they have, I would suspect more than a few of those accusations to be utterly false and merely fishing expeditions in order to get some money out of the church and ride the media perceived wave of sexual abuse going on.

Point being its rather odd that they cant pin it down closer than 2.5% to 7% on one scale, but on the other a far more accurate 1% to 3%? Casuation =/= correlation, and there may indeed be some factors that they arent considering, such as media exposure and frivilous lawsuits in order to get financial gain.

 

[dirtyparrot]

^ I think that common sense would dictate that pedophiles are probably more highly represented in areas where they could have easy access to children. I don't think that the church or religion itself makes someone more susceptible to this.

 

[holy king]

the problem is not that it happened in the church, but that it was enabled and covered up systematically in the church.

 

[Japanrocks12]

I'm saddened that these journalists don't show more restraint, since it's all about attacking the Pope whilst maintaining journalistic standards nowadays.