Jungle Terrain, especially Jungle Starts

[chicorbeef]

Except for what Gazebo said, that it would make jungles not different than forests. And I agree. I prefer jungles to be harder to chopp. This means jungles need something to let a jungle civ thrive, but giving extra food was too good before. Let it be other yield type, so we are encouraged to remove jungle eventually.

Jungles are still different enough from Forests, they get science at Unis but no production/gold at workshops, they get logging camps at Machinery that provide gold instead of production.

If the chop stays at Iron Working, though, I wouldn't mind giving the Granary +1 food on Bananas and removing +1 food from its' plantation, that seems like a fair early game boost. I don't want the Herbalist to be touched.

 

[Stalker0]

Except for what Gazebo said, that it would make jungles not different than forests.

Early game maybe, but once forests get extra hammers and jungle gets science its a very different tile. Further, the types of resources that spawn there are different.

I am not saying jungle should be adjusted...but I don't feel the "sameness" argument holds water here.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Agreed. Forests are more production-y, while jungles are more science-y and gold-y. If they were both choppable at BW, I don't think it'd be a problem at all, they'd still be quite different.

 

[Txurce]

From wikipedia-

The Maya civilization occupied a wide territory that included southeastern Mexico and northern Central America. This area included the entire Yucatán Peninsula and all of the territory now incorporated into the modern countries of Guatemala and Belize, as well as the western portions of Honduras and El Salvador.[18] Most of the peninsula is formed by a vast plain with few hills or mountains and a generally low coastline.

They weren't growing corn in the jungles. I'm not a history expert by any means, but it seems that the realistic way to implement jungle would be to make it so harsh you almost certainly lose to civs on open rivers, which its pretty obvious we don't want for gameplay reasons.

I'd like to try chopping at bronze working and the herbalist needs tweaking IMO. We can take a yield away from banans or the luxuries if need be

It was plains because they cut down the jungle. That's why the jungle covered them up once they collapsed.

Repeating myself one more time: I'm in favor of cutting down jungle a lot of the time. I said jungle makes intuitive sense with science. That's ALL I've said about jungle.

And I prefer boosting the herbalist to chopping at bronze, because that makes jungle too similar to forest.

 

[ElliotS]

The Mayans were culturally and scientifically ahead of most of Europe at their peak.

As CrazyG mentioned: The Mayans weren't a "jungle" civ. Moreover it's also about quantity. You can try to take the best "jungle" civ IRL and claim it's not that bad, but the reality is that the average "jungle" civ is more along the lines of the original people of the Congo, New Guinea and many other insignificant tribes who're a footnote in the history of mankind. We're talking about people who need almost 100% of their men and women to scavenge or farm very low yield crops to survive. There's no room for scholars. There's no room for scientists. There's no room for advanced metallurgy.

The average civ/tribe/whatever in the jungle were a nameless tribe that hasn't left a single artifact worth knowing about. It's the sad truth. Life isn't fair, and simply by virtue of where you were born, today or in the past, you can be screwed from the start.

 

[Txurce]

As CrazyG mentioned: The Mayans weren't a "jungle" civ. Moreover it's also about quantity. You can try to take the best "jungle" civ IRL and claim it's not that bad, but the reality is that the average "jungle" civ is more along the lines of the original people of the Congo, New Guinea and many other insignificant tribes who're a footnote in the history of mankind. We're talking about people who need almost 100% of their men and women to scavenge or farm very low yield crops to survive. There's no room for scholars. There's no room for scientists. There's no room for advanced metallurgy.

The average civ/tribe/whatever in the jungle were a nameless tribe that hasn't left a single artifact worth knowing about. It's the sad truth. Life isn't fair, and simply by virtue of where you were born, today or in the past, you can be screwed from the start.

No comment on the "average jungle civ." I mentioned the Mayans (and the Incans, but they had less jungle to contend with.)

The Mayans were a jungle civ who had the means to transform much of it into "plains" (just like Civ), flourished beyond anything Europe was doing at the time, and eventually failed for reasons having nothing to do with jungle... after which the jungle grew back and covered up the ruins so completely that some cities were only discovered in the last year with laser technology.

As for the "average jungle civ" in the game, we all agree they need some form of help.

 

[Gazebo]

If Herbalists gave 1 gold per 2 jungles, would that alleviate the issue?

G

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

In addition to 1 food per 2 jungles?

 

[Gazebo]

In addition to 1 food per 2 jungles?

It already does that.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I know, that's why I asked if in addition to that or instead of that.

1f/1g per 2 jungles would imho make Jungle starts good enough.

 

[hr_oskar]

As CrazyG mentioned: The Mayans weren't a "jungle" civ. Moreover it's also about quantity. You can try to take the best "jungle" civ IRL and claim it's not that bad, but the reality is that the average "jungle" civ is more along the lines of the original people of the Congo, New Guinea and many other insignificant tribes who're a footnote in the history of mankind. We're talking about people who need almost 100% of their men and women to scavenge or farm very low yield crops to survive. There's no room for scholars. There's no room for scientists. There's no room for advanced metallurgy.

The average civ/tribe/whatever in the jungle were a nameless tribe that hasn't left a single artifact worth knowing about. It's the sad truth. Life isn't fair, and simply by virtue of where you were born, today or in the past, you can be screwed from the start.

Um, how about Southeast Asia? That's mostly "jungle terrain" in its original state. And how were the Maya not a jungle civ?

The Inca were however not in a tropical forest environment. They didn't have advanced metalworking but instead their stoneworking and use of textiles were very advanced and impressive to the Spanish.

Historians have been dismissive of advanced societies in rainforest environments partly because it's such an alien environment to Westerners and therefore assumed to be inhospitable; and partly because the evidence of the past is so thoroughly hidden by the forest.

If we're going to bring real history into the discussion, then I'd rather point to Asian rice farming in tropical environments. That is a reality that Civ hasn't really simulated well. It's view of "jungles" seems to be mainly the Amazon and chopping it = Brazilian ranchers clearing the rainforest for cattle farming (hence it turns into plains). In Southeast Asia original rainforest environments have been transformed over time into a highly organized (and wet) landscape of rice paddies and terraces. The best way to reflect this would be a distinct improvement type that can only be built on a jungle, yielding very high food. But I'm not really suggesting that here because I know VP is feature-complete. But please don't invoke real life to say that "jungles are inhospitable so they should suck".

 

[Gazebo]

Historians have been dismissive of advanced societies in rainforest environments partly because it's such an alien environment to Westerners and therefore assumed to be inhospitable; and partly because the evidence of the past is so thoroughly hidden by the forest.

The irony of this is delicious - complain that historians over-generalize rainforest cultures while over-generalizing historians at the same time (and also assuming that all historians are westerners). I dig it.

G

 

[tu_79]

If Herbalists gave 1 gold per 2 jungles, would that alleviate the issue?

G

Can you make it science instead? I'm beginning to think that no other yield can improve jungle situation that won't cause problems later.

 

[Gazebo]

Can you make it science instead? I'm beginning to think that no other yield can improve jungle situation that won't cause problems later.

The knock-on effect of extra science from jungles is dangerous for the Maya.

G

 

[tu_79]

The knock-on effect of extra science from jungles is dangerous for the Maya.

G

1 science every 2 worked jungles? Isn't that like another library in most cases? And right now, population in jungles is quite low, so I don't see happiness issues.

 

[ashendashin]

Um, how about Southeast Asia? That's mostly "jungle terrain" in its original state. And how were the Maya not a jungle civ?

The Inca were however not in a tropical forest environment. They didn't have advanced metalworking but instead their stoneworking and use of textiles were very advanced and impressive to the Spanish.

Historians have been dismissive of advanced societies in rainforest environments partly because it's such an alien environment to Westerners and therefore assumed to be inhospitable; and partly because the evidence of the past is so thoroughly hidden by the forest.

If we're going to bring real history into the discussion, then I'd rather point to Asian rice farming in tropical environments. That is a reality that Civ hasn't really simulated well. It's view of "jungles" seems to be mainly the Amazon and chopping it = Brazilian ranchers clearing the rainforest for cattle farming (hence it turns into plains). In Southeast Asia original rainforest environments have been transformed over time into a highly organized (and wet) landscape of rice paddies and terraces. The best way to reflect this would be a distinct improvement type that can only be built on a jungle, yielding very high food. But I'm not really suggesting that here because I know VP is feature-complete. But please don't invoke real life to say that "jungles are inhospitable so they should suck".

They should suck tho(ignoring balance concerns). Southeast Asia making use of what land they've got doesn't mean they can credit the jungle for their advancement, and it took a stupid amount of work to make things hospitable for those that don't do the rice farming themselves. But then I barely know anything about Asian history.
Tropical environments just generally suck for anyone trying to force some sort of living in them. This can be proven by all of South America.

 

[tu_79]

They should suck tho(ignoring balance concerns). Southeast Asia making use of what land they've got doesn't mean they can credit the jungle for their advancement, and it took a stupid amount of work to make things hospitable for those that don't do the rice farming themselves. But then I barely know anything about Asian history.
Tropical environments just generally suck for anyone trying to force some sort of living in them. This can be proven by all of South America.

Sweden isn't a paradise either, and here they are one of the most advanced nations in the world.

 

[pineappledan]

On a semi-related note. Has Siam been switched to a jungle start bias yet? That Wat jungle bonus rarely gets used since Siam's start bias specifically avoids jungle.

1f/g for 2 jungle tiles seems like an okay idea. Let's run with that for now.

I do think the complaints w.r.t. chopping coming so late are valid though. Having your iron locked down in jungle way later than other civs is rough. A jungle start already precludes you from horses, so having it double-punish you like that is too cruel. The argument that forest and jungle will be too similar if the chop comes at the same tech does not hold much water at this point.

• They have different buildings that improve them
• Their lumber camp improvements still are at different techs
• They have different bonus/luxury resources

 

[ashendashin]

Sweden isn't a paradise either, and here they are one of the most advanced nations in the world.

Again, I doubt it's the natural environment that takes credit. I shouldn't have said anything since advanced societies are a consequence of many factors.
While the environment may drive to different advances, jungle is an especially poor location for a lasting civilization, as far as I know.

 

[Gokudo01]

If Herbalists gave 1 gold per 2 jungles, would that alleviate the issue?

G

I don't think it will solve any core issues.