Jungles!

[Nefelia]

I've been thinking about how jungles have been implemented. It occurred to me that jungles have been imported from the previous Civ games without consideration as to how they can be better represented with CivIV mechanics (ie, the addition of Health).

Jungles are basically forests located in hot and extremely humid climates. As such they are lush (lots of food for those who know how to find it) and can provide lots of timber. The climate, however, makes it so that food spoils quickly, and diseases/parasites are abundant.

So while the health penalty for jungles makes sense, the food penalty does not.

I would propose that jungles be treated as forests as far as food and production go (no food penalty, +1 hammer), but retain the health penalty. This way, it would still be a very bad idea to build inside a jungle unless such cities are connected to an empire that can [provide enough health resources to counteract the health penalties of the surrounding jungles.

Besides which, one would still have to wait until Sanitation to work/clear Jungles.

Any thoughts?

 

[eerr]

hmm.... where would this leave "jungle clearing" on the tech tree?
and doesn't this make jungles into the almost but not quite as good as forests category?

 

[Nefelia]

It would definitely be a big boost to jungles. But then is there any reason to have Jungles be such poor land? Especially considering that Jungles are just forests in tropical regions.

My most recent games have been on the Earth map with about 12 civs. In all my games, Civs starting in Africa and south America have been doomed to insignificance due to the great patches of Jungle. Likewise, Civs starting on the Asian subcontinent (India) are severely hampered by Jungles. I just figured that the map was broken and started manually improving the terrain in Africa, South America, and Asia to compensate.

Upon further thought, I decided it wasn't the map that was broken, but the Jungle terrain feature itself. After all, several sophisticated empires have managed to thrive in Jungle environments throughout history.

Jungles in earlier Civ games lacked the more sophisticated machanics of Civ IV, and as such the -1 food penalty for jungles was chosen to represent the challenges of jungle climates. Having played Civ continuously from Civ I to Civ IV, I just accepted Jungles as is without further consideration. However, my experience with the Earth map has led me to think that Jungles at least need a rethink.

 

[Master_Hugian]

You could always do what they do in the Servo mod, when you build a city in the first 10 turns of the game (i think) all jungle in the fat cross gets 'burned' away, this will help some civs with very poor staring positions

 

[Chandrasekhar]

You could always do what they do in the Servo mod, when you build a city in the first 10 turns of the game (i think) all jungle in the fat cross gets 'burned' away, this will help some civs with very poor staring positions

If you're playing one of the standard map generators, jungles/deserts/peaks/tundra/ice will never be inside the capital's fat cross.

 

[Sarisin]

If you are really in the mood for a 'jungle challenge,' try playing the Fantasy Realm map on Irrational or Crazy settings.

You have jungle on ice tiles, etc. Also, it seems jungles cover many of the resources making it hard to get to important resources like horses, incense, and the metals until you have researched Sanitation and can clear them.

The only civ with mounted units in my current game has been Hippus (gets the resource automatically), because every Horse resource I have seen was on a jungle tile.

 

[Kael]

You could always do what they do in the Servo mod, when you build a city in the first 10 turns of the game (i think) all jungle in the fat cross gets 'burned' away, this will help some civs with very poor staring positions

With the bonus movement and sight of starting settlers you should be able to find an appropriate area rather than cleaning up an area to fit.

 

[eerr]

i always though of jungles as fertile land covered up, if you could last long enough to get sanitation or w.e., you would be able to convert all of it into fertile grasslands. Thus it would lead the way for a backwards civ to become tech savy-i suppose a little production from jungles at the very least, would be necessary to support this.
+1 production?

Production from chopping?(wood for buildings)
gold from chopping?(rare woods sold to the people)

 

[ween]

Historically jungles havent been very productive so the lack of hammers makes sense.
Perhapse make jugles removeable with bronze working but the worker has a chance to become diseased until sanitation?

 

[eerr]

Historically jungles havent been very productive so the lack of hammers makes sense.
Perhapse make jugles removeable with bronze working but the worker has a chance to become diseased until sanitation?

since diseased units have to be built, and workers have no combat strength to reduce, wouldn't this be a disadvantage?

 

[ween]

Perhapse giving them the diseased promotion units get when they are in the same tile as diseased corpses. They have no combat strength to reduce but they could spread it to other units, mabey even slow down their build improvement speed. This chance to become diseased would disappear at sanitation.

Yes it is a disadvantage, I thought this would offbalance getting to remove jungles at bronzeworking.

 

[Nefelia]

Historically jungles havent been very productive so the lack of hammers makes sense.
Perhapse make jugles removeable with bronze working but the worker has a chance to become diseased until sanitation?

The Mayan Civilization was able to thrive in the jungles of Central America in the same manner countless civs did in Europe: clearing/burning patches of jungle/forest to make way for agricultural fields. Why would a bronze axe fell a tree in temperate climates, but not in tropical climates? Why would timber from temperate forests provide a +1 production bonus, but not timber from tropical forests?

Food for thought.

You could also look to SouthEast Asian history for more examples of empires that thrived in jungle environments.

 

[ChaoticWanderer]

I think you should look for more gold from jungles maybe 1 food 1 hammer and 2 gold.

Add the ability to build lumber mills in forests.

the gold from junglr would come from the more unique things food in tropical climates tropical fruits, tropical nuts, tropical woods.

I also think spreading resources out would make for more intresting maps

Like why are dyes only found in jungles but i never see insence in Jungles. and nothing is found in forests. Just seems odd

 

[ween]

The Mayan Civilization was able to thrive in the jungles of Central America

The Mayans were circling the drain by the time the spanish showed up and never got past low bronze age tech, I'd hardly call that thriving.

in the same manner countless civs did in Europe: clearing/burning patches of jungle/forest to make way for agricultural fields.

I'm assuming the jungle tile in CIV represent very wet, tropical jungle. Early Europeans didn't have to deal with this. Also I am not talking about food production. I agree that jungle civilisations never had a problem getting food. This game seperates food production and other production. I am referring to this 'other' production.

Why would a bronze axe fell a tree in temperate climates, but not in tropical climates? Why would timber from temperate forests provide a +1 production bonus, but not timber from tropical forests?

Food for thought.

Its not that simple. Jungle is a much harsher environment, on men and equipment. Its going to take longer and is much more dangerous. Production from a temperate forest is going to be easier to get and require a much lower tech level than doing the same in a tropical rain forest. Hence the huge logging industry in the Pacific Northwest as opposed to the almost non-existant one in the Amazon.

You could also look to SouthEast Asian history for more examples of empires that thrived in jungle environments.

I don't know much about Southeast Asian history so I cant comment on this.


I think that realisticly, clearing jungle would require a higher tech level that clearing forest. However this game, (and this mod especially) realism takes a backseat to fun, and I think that that has to be taken into account first.
Diseased workers spreading the plague around sound kinda fun.

 

[Nefelia]

Ween, all empires come to an end eventually. Take Rome, for instance. That does not mean that they were not at one time very successful and sophisticated.

The downfall of the Maya is mainly due to warfare and climate change, and has nothing to do with the challenges of the jungles (which they had, naturally, adapted to)

Its not that simple. Jungle is a much harsher environment, on men and equipment. Its going to take longer and is much more dangerous. Production from a temperate forest is going to be easier to get and require a much lower tech level than doing the same in a tropical rain forest. Hence the huge logging industry in the Pacific Northwest as opposed to the almost non-existant one in the Amazon.

Dear Lord, friend! Do you seriously believe that the lumber trade is not slobbering to get a hold of Amazonian land? Brazil is on of the hot spots for both legal and illegal logging, and the only serious obstacle to more logging in Brazil is international pressure from environmentalists.

You are correct that the Jungle (climate) has an effect on humans. As such I find the health penalty for Jungles to be entirely appropriate, and sufficient to reflect the difficulty of settling tropical forests.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Ween, all empires come to an end eventually. Take Rome, for instance. That does not mean that they were not at one time very successful and sophisticated.

The downfall of the Maya is mainly due to warfare and climate change, and has nothing to do with the challenges of the jungles (which they had, naturally, adapted to)

I'd not really compare the two. Rome fell more because of politics, and there's not much certainty of why the Mayans fell. Unless there have been recent findings?

Seems like the greatest civilizations have sprung up in a belt just south of this wet sinkhole I live in (not that I'd have it any other way ). It makes perfect sense that all Civs would want to expand into these areas first, save those Civs that are specialized for other climates (Orcs? Illians?)

Dear Lord, friend! Do you seriously believe that the lumber trade is not slobbering to get a hold of Amazonian land? Brazil is on of the hot spots for both legal and illegal logging, and the only serious obstacle to more logging in Brazil is international pressure from environmentalists.

True, but that's mostly for the potential farmland (read: grassland) that the jungles cover. At least so far as I understand it.

You are correct that the Jungle (climate) has an effect on humans. As such I find the health penalty for Jungles to be entirely appropriate, and sufficient to reflect the difficulty of settling tropical forests.

Do you mean that they're fine the way they are now, or that they should have the same yields as forests, but with minus health instead of bonus health?

Hm... I should probably mention that Sanitation in FfH and Iron Working in vanilla Civ are at very different stages. In normal speed, you might get Iron Working in vanilla Civ around year 100 (earlier if you want it). In FfH, Sanitation generally waits 'till year 200+, though of course you can still rush it like I do. Both jungles and forests are more of a hinderance now than a help, in most cases.

 

[ween]

Ween, all empires come to an end eventually. Take Rome, for instance. That does not mean that they were not at one time very successful and sophisticated.

The downfall of the Maya is mainly due to warfare and climate change, and has nothing to do with the challenges of the jungles (which they had, naturally, adapted to).

I'm not arguing how they ended, I'm saying they were never a 'thriving' empire. They barely made it out of the stone age and then imploded before a Spaniard came near them.

What I'm (very poorly) trying to say is that at the tech level that this mod is at, (medival-ish), getting any useful production out of a jungle as opposed to a forest just isn't practical. Thus, I agree with forests giving a hammer and jungle not.

My only problem is that sanitation comes so late in this mod that if you start surrounded by jungle you have a very hard game ahead. As opposed to vanilla civ where iron working isn't that far away.

Dear Lord, friend! Do you seriously believe that the lumber trade is not slobbering to get a hold of Amazonian land? Brazil is on of the hot spots for both legal and illegal logging, and the only serious obstacle to more logging in Brazil is international pressure from environmentalists.

I didn't know this, point taken.

 

[Nefelia]

Chandra:

I highly doubt logging companies are very interested in the farms that can be developped once they clear the forests. Their interests are primarily on the quality lumber they can extract from the rainforests of South America.

However, creating farmland may be one incentive for th Brazilian government to allow logging of its forests (aside from taxes extracted from the companies).

As for the Mayan civilization(s), there has been significant headway in understanding their way of life and their eventual demise. One interesting discovery was that the Mayans were not united into a monolithic empire, but were separated into several very dynamic kingdoms. Contrary to Ween's beliefs, thet appear to have had a highly developed society and sophisticated (though not very practical) sciences which focused on numerology and astrology.

Their end came, if I remember correctly, via extreme soil salination caused by climate change and ruinous agricultural practices.


When I said that the health penalty is sufficient to reflect the challenges of jungle terrain, I was simply reasserting my point that jungles are merely forests in tropical climes. I find the health penalty appropriate for Jungles (aka. Rainforests), but the food penalty would be more appropriate for terrain features such as Swamps (from CivIII).

Do you mean that they're fine the way they are now, or that they should have the same yields as forests, but with minus health instead of bonus health?

No, I don't really like the way they are now. But maybe giving them the yields of forests is going too far in correcting them. How about?

Jungle: +1 production; -1.0 health

That would maintain the current disincentives of building in/near jungle for the forst long stretch of the game, while making Jungle settlements more viable much later, with numerous health-giving resources and civics in play.

Heck, it may even give Jungles a later function besides being a patch of unfavorable terrain feature to eliminate.

 

[Nefelia]

I'm not arguing how they ended, I'm saying they were never a 'thriving' empire. They barely made it out of the stone age and then imploded before a Spaniard came near them.

What I'm (very poorly) trying to say is that at the tech level that this mod is at, (medival-ish), getting any useful production out of a jungle as opposed to a forest just isn't practical. Thus, I agree with forests giving a hammer and jungle not.

My only problem is that sanitation comes so late in this mod that if you start surrounded by jungle you have a very hard game ahead. As opposed to vanilla civ where iron working isn't that far away.




I didn't know this, point taken.

Ween, you would be surprised at the level of technological/societal sophistication of which natives of South America were capable. And yet, despite all of their technological innovations, these civilizations were long dead by the time the Spaniards arrived.

But that does not mean that the natives had inferior civilizations. They were simply subject to very bad luck. The natives of Peru, for instance, had their civilization collapse, despite irrigation practices superior to that of European Civs. Of course, no European Civ had to endure an 80 year drought.

You seem to be judging technological level from a very euro-centric perspective. As such, of course Jungles look unproductive and irredeemable, because European (and Western, in general) technology developed in an environment devoid of all jungles.

J. H. Christ...time for me to get back to work. I might get back to you later.

 

[ween]

You seem to be judging technological level from a very euro-centric perspective. As such, of course Jungles look unproductive and irredeemable, because European (and Western, in general) technology developed in an environment devoid of all jungles.

Well, as I am of western European decent... there you go

We've really strayed off topic The point I am trying to make is that, (I think), considering the tech level of the mod the lack of production in jungles is apropriate.
I do see your point on food, however. Perhapse a new trait could allow for +1 food in jungles?