Kael
Deity
Or just give all your units the spellcasting abilities of archmages/summoners.
Just what is the Tower of Mastery?
- Thread starter Fetus4188
- Start date
That is insanely powerful!! Having govannon allone just about wins the game(those swarms of unlimited cannon fodder skeletons are great), but teaching all the spells to all units means game over(multiply the effect of Govvanon by ten fold!). 
Think about all your idle workers, eg just 10 slaves, next thing they cast the crush spell, then 27 meteors. Maybe chuck in a few earth elementals. What city could stand up to that?? You can have many of these magical stacks of doom with any 10 units (old warriors etc) simultaneously walking over opponents. You can just walk around the world capturing now empty cities, conquest victory in the next 10-30 turns. this would also provide a great oppotrunity for people to have a chance to have some fun with spells that they haven't had a chance to try out yet.
The only thing is that going for the tower will mean that people will not put any effort into leveling up adepts, which goes a bit against the Amurites flavor having the arcane trait. I think the amurites should have the most incentive instead of the least incentive to get the tower.
One alternative way to make the tower provide the most benefit to civilizations that have taken the effort to build up their magical abilities is to provide all arcane/divine units with the twin cast promotion, effectively doubling your civilizations magical ability(maybe also take away the arc mage /summoner national limit). This will provide a substantial benefit to civilizations that have built up their magical ability (very attractive for Amurites), and less attractive for Hippus.
Think about all your idle workers, eg just 10 slaves, next thing they cast the crush spell, then 27 meteors. Maybe chuck in a few earth elementals. What city could stand up to that?? You can have many of these magical stacks of doom with any 10 units (old warriors etc) simultaneously walking over opponents. You can just walk around the world capturing now empty cities, conquest victory in the next 10-30 turns. this would also provide a great oppotrunity for people to have a chance to have some fun with spells that they haven't had a chance to try out yet.
The only thing is that going for the tower will mean that people will not put any effort into leveling up adepts, which goes a bit against the Amurites flavor having the arcane trait. I think the amurites should have the most incentive instead of the least incentive to get the tower.
One alternative way to make the tower provide the most benefit to civilizations that have taken the effort to build up their magical abilities is to provide all arcane/divine units with the twin cast promotion, effectively doubling your civilizations magical ability(maybe also take away the arc mage /summoner national limit). This will provide a substantial benefit to civilizations that have built up their magical ability (very attractive for Amurites), and less attractive for Hippus.
vorshlumpf
Emperor
I think that is a simple but powerful idea. It would definitely give me more incentive to go for the Tower (I have yet to try to build it, myself).
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Well, you would normally win the game automatically. Is making winning the old fashioned way that much easier such a bad thing? 
Personally I think that making all units the equivalent of Archmages is much too powerful, but I wouldn't mind it granting arcane units the channeling II and III promotions. (I'm not sure if it should just be for new adepts built there, or for those that pass through the city)
(Speaking of Govannon, I would prefer it if he could teach spells of any sphere, but had to know the 3rd level to teach the first one. Of course, that is a change I can do myself easily enough.
What I would really like is if the cave of the ancestors, instead of granting free xp to arcane units bases on the mana possessed, could randomly grant channeling I, channeling II, sorcery, and various first level spell spheres (with chances based on how much mana you own). It would then be really cool if Wizards became just Archmages availible at sorcery (since any unit descended from Kyorlin, even a worker, would have a chance to be born with all the abilities of an other civ's mages), and if Archmages were replaced by a single national unit UU, the Casawallawn, which would be the strongest caster in the game (perhaps starting with hero, spellstaff, magic immune, extension I and II, and perhaps all the spells of all the mana types you posses). Alternately, Casawallawn could be be a promotion that works like patriarch for Amurite arcane units, and grants something like a -100% percent chance of the target resisting the spell.
Also, I would like it if spellstaffs were treated as objects, able to be handed from one arcane unit to another so one caster can focus on making them for the others to use. It would also be nice for it to have some other small effect, like a -5% chance of spells being resisted)
Personally I think that making all units the equivalent of Archmages is much too powerful, but I wouldn't mind it granting arcane units the channeling II and III promotions. (I'm not sure if it should just be for new adepts built there, or for those that pass through the city)
(Speaking of Govannon, I would prefer it if he could teach spells of any sphere, but had to know the 3rd level to teach the first one. Of course, that is a change I can do myself easily enough.
What I would really like is if the cave of the ancestors, instead of granting free xp to arcane units bases on the mana possessed, could randomly grant channeling I, channeling II, sorcery, and various first level spell spheres (with chances based on how much mana you own). It would then be really cool if Wizards became just Archmages availible at sorcery (since any unit descended from Kyorlin, even a worker, would have a chance to be born with all the abilities of an other civ's mages), and if Archmages were replaced by a single national unit UU, the Casawallawn, which would be the strongest caster in the game (perhaps starting with hero, spellstaff, magic immune, extension I and II, and perhaps all the spells of all the mana types you posses). Alternately, Casawallawn could be be a promotion that works like patriarch for Amurite arcane units, and grants something like a -100% percent chance of the target resisting the spell.
Also, I would like it if spellstaffs were treated as objects, able to be handed from one arcane unit to another so one caster can focus on making them for the others to use. It would also be nice for it to have some other small effect, like a -5% chance of spells being resisted)
I like the idea of being able to pass on spellstafs as objects. Normally i give enchantment to my bluff mage, “enchanted blade, arrows etc” but for battle mages would prefer to get C5+SE2 then death3. So enchantment3 is not so attractive for a battle mage. Enchanting should be more of a task of a bluff. Taking up one of your arcmage slots for a level3 bluff is still a big price (although there are a few cool level3 bluff spells like stoneskin, vitalize, resurrection, unyielding order), this saves the battle mages from needing to waste 3 promotions to get spellstafs. giving spellstafs to divine units would also provide some benefit. It’ll take time to hand out spellstafs, so wouldn’t be overly powerful in an extended heated battle.
This I guess this could be slightly powerful as it’d turn your bluff into another battle mage, as during the battle each turn it’d make a spell staff, and hand it to another arc mage which could then cast twice each turn. effectively creating two battle mages out of the battle mage +bluff combination. This could be balanced by giving the casted promotion to units taking the spell staff from another unit(you can't make a spell staff and hand it to someone in the middle of a frantic battle, as they could be on the other side of the battle field). Hence the bluff can’t simply transfer their spell casting ability onto another unit (effectively giving twincast to one other unit on the same tile), but could still hand out spellstafs to all casters making it very useful later in the heat of battle.
Anyway, back to the tower. i think it should provide the most benefit to magically orientated civilizations.
xienwolf
Deity
I like the unlimited Archmages idea. Not quite as overpowering as my idea of everyone can cast (though I do so like that idea. Maybe only adept spells for the non-caster types like warrior and worker?).
I don't think that unlimited casting for players would work either if we are aiming for something NICE, but still balanced enough to keep on playing toward the enabled victory conditions.
If you had unlimited casting, you could destroy the entire world in 1 turn as a mage. Haste = +1 to move. Unlimited casting of that means unlimited move. Waterwalking means you can get to every continent. Then just summon fireballs and keep sending them in until your target is destroyed. Maybe a free Twincast promotion would be the most balanced effect along those lines, but I am not sure if that is strong enough to justify making the tower if it isn't a VC.
I don't think that unlimited casting for players would work either if we are aiming for something NICE, but still balanced enough to keep on playing toward the enabled victory conditions.
If you had unlimited casting, you could destroy the entire world in 1 turn as a mage. Haste = +1 to move. Unlimited casting of that means unlimited move. Waterwalking means you can get to every continent. Then just summon fireballs and keep sending them in until your target is destroyed. Maybe a free Twincast promotion would be the most balanced effect along those lines, but I am not sure if that is strong enough to justify making the tower if it isn't a VC.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Well, what you said about haste isn't true. It doesn't add +1 movement, it adds a promotion that adds +1 movement. You can't just keep adding the same promotion over and over again to get infinite moves (although I wonder if alternating between haste and dispel magic would work..)
Other than that, I think I agree. Is there a way to change the limits on one player's national units mid-game? I can't think of a way, but I guess that doesn't really mean much. Still, giving the Channeling III promotion to all mages (or better yet, all arcane units) would have about the same effect and would probably be much easier to implement.
Other than that, I think I agree. Is there a way to change the limits on one player's national units mid-game? I can't think of a way, but I guess that doesn't really mean much. Still, giving the Channeling III promotion to all mages (or better yet, all arcane units) would have about the same effect and would probably be much easier to implement.
xienwolf
Deity
Heh heh. Had the same idea as Sureshot did. 
I would say make it an upgrade to Archmage though so that the Nationally limited version doesn't appear in the production queue.
I would say make it an upgrade to Archmage though so that the Nationally limited version doesn't appear in the production queue.dscarron
Chieftain
make a new unit available after constructyion of TOM, upgradeable from arc-mages, summoners or high priests. with twincast, channeling3, sorcery, summoning, divine, free promotion, increased XP growth rate, no national limit.
That could be a fun way to end a game.
That could be a fun way to end a game.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
It doesn't seem like the Tower has much to do with divine magic to me. I would probably leave off the divine promotion and the ability for high priests to upgrade to it. I guess AV priests seem a bit arcane, but it doesn't seem to fit for the others.
I like the idea of a disappearing opponent civ, which is replaced by barbarian. would be flavour.
also one could make them something like the mercurian, which "one day will return". Maybe Hyborem for the Tower of Mastery and Mercurian for the Temple?
Of course: what would it give to you, if you build it? I think something very special - maybe unit?
I like the mod where you don't "win" the game with 1 victory but only get more points for each victory. this would go along with these ideas.
also one could make them something like the mercurian, which "one day will return". Maybe Hyborem for the Tower of Mastery and Mercurian for the Temple?
Of course: what would it give to you, if you build it? I think something very special - maybe unit?
I like the mod where you don't "win" the game with 1 victory but only get more points for each victory. this would go along with these ideas.
Nor'easter
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 2,022
I definitely like the idea of modifying the Tower of Mastery so it will have some in-game effects beyond winning the game. I recently won my first Altar of the Luonnotar victory and, because of the in-game effects (golden age, extra xp for disciple units, extra hammers from priests), decided to keep playing. Seems to me that it would make sense -- and be fun -- if the ToM also had some in-game effects.
On analogy with the final Altar, you could at a minimum have the ToM start a golden age.
Also, since building the ToM is ultimately dependent on having access to each type of mana, the suggestions to have some effect on magic make good sense. Extra xp for arcane units would be the most obvious, but that makes it too much like the Amurites' Cave of Ancestors. There are some good suggestions in this thread, so I'm sure if the design team wants to modify the ToM, they'll come up with something interesting.
On analogy with the final Altar, you could at a minimum have the ToM start a golden age.
Also, since building the ToM is ultimately dependent on having access to each type of mana, the suggestions to have some effect on magic make good sense. Extra xp for arcane units would be the most obvious, but that makes it too much like the Amurites' Cave of Ancestors. There are some good suggestions in this thread, so I'm sure if the design team wants to modify the ToM, they'll come up with something interesting.
vorshlumpf
Emperor
That's a cool idea. It hurts everyone else more than benefits you (since you already have most mana), giving huge incentive to stop the building of the Tower.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Sounds like a good idea. I would prefer it produce more than 3 of each type though, in case you have some permanent allies and/or vassels you would like to arm. How about 7 or 10 of each
I think it should destroy all nodes and raw mana, however, I don't think it should destroy the free mana given by unique features.
One reason I support this more is that it would require an xml change that I've been meaning to request. Instead of having 3 slots for free resources that a building can produce, I would much prefer a more flexible code allowing any number of resources, each with a separate number for how much of each. This also seems like something that could be useful to modders.
I think it should destroy all nodes and raw mana, however, I don't think it should destroy the free mana given by unique features.
One reason I support this more is that it would require an xml change that I've been meaning to request. Instead of having 3 slots for free resources that a building can produce, I would much prefer a more flexible code allowing any number of resources, each with a separate number for how much of each. This also seems like something that could be useful to modders.
I think 10 is to much, because when you build the ToM you have no friends anymore anyway, and most often only 1 ally. 3 of each would be nice though. Also if it would destroy all other nodes, that would be a reason to declare war on everyone who attempts to build it.
