K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

[noto2]

@ En Dotter: The example you gave is hillarious...Roman and Greek trade. The Romans practically became Greek in every way except language. They loved Greek literature, stole Greek myths, religion, and for a time being even Greek military tactics. I'd say the Romans were more Greek than anything else. As for China, you do know that we got gunpowder from them, right? We also borrowed many phrases and sayings from them "long time no see" "the nail that sticks out the most gets hammered the hardest" "once the glass is broken it will never be fixed" etc, etc.

 

[gps]

I dont see any of us becoming more Chinese when the silk road was in use. Just goods, nothing else.

No? We Europeans only were so totally crazed about their porcelain that "China" actually became a synonym for it - and even today (in case you're not eating in any of the cuturally slightly different "American" fast food restaurants) you will find it on almost any table rather than the wood or the clay we Europeans used before. But it's just goods. Didn't change our culture at all...

 

[Leoreth]

You are talking about nowadays and u are approximating past to present. That is also a big mistake. Ill give u an example. If i (roman) import pottery from you (greek) it doesnt mean im adopting your culture. I am just importing your goods. I might change add/remove something from ur model to make my own, but that wont influence my ppl to become more greek. In order to properly spread a culture in that age u needed more than just caravans. U needed scholars, priests, spies and such. Trade on its own is just trade and has nothing to do with culture.
If you have spies (or any other i mentioned) among your merchants u can influence something. But merchants job is to sell not to "assimilate".

EDIT:
I dont see any of us becoming more Chinese when the silk road was in use. Just goods, nothing else.

I'd really like to hear your definition of culture. Importing foreign goods, using them, and even modeling my own production of similar goods after them sounds like a textbook example of cultural influence to me!

 

[En_Dotter]

@ En Dotter: The example you gave is hillarious...Roman and Greek trade. The Romans practically became Greek in every way except language. They loved Greek literature, stole Greek myths, religion, and for a time being even Greek military tactics. I'd say the Romans were more Greek than anything else. As for China, you do know that we got gunpowder from them, right? We also borrowed many phrases and sayings from them "long time no see" "the nail that sticks out the most gets hammered the hardest" "once the glass is broken it will never be fixed" etc, etc.

As far as i know Greek had colonies in "Italy" and they became Romans. No matter how much culture they stole from Greeks or "imported", they didnt become Greeks, they became "true" Romans.
Yes, we got gunpowder from China, as well as lot of other things, and those are only things.

And by the way im talking about "game culture" the whole time (except for the 1st post regarding culture and trade), and how trade affects stuff. So, what i was trying to say is that the trade ALONE cannot influence the cultural spread of other civ in the way game perceives culture. If you want to debate about culture in real world we can make another topic and do it. Culture in this game is a bit different.

EDIT:
I am amazed how u animate the objects: "We Europeans only were so totally crazed about their porcelain that "China" actually became a synonym for it."
I dont know about that but i will assume its true. Those were and are just bloody material objects that carry or dont carry a bigger picture. Without a message i mentioned, there is not a major culture spread. If i import porcelain from u and i have no clue about it i will be really amazed by the quality of it and i might be talking to ppl where it came from, but what else will i know about u and what other message will i be able to share with others? Its like tasting a new unknown fruit. I will enjoy it and i will know nothing about it - therefore its just a fruit.

 

[Horatius]

As far as i know Greek had colonies in "Italy" and they became Romans. No matter how much culture they stole from Greeks or "imported", they didnt become Greeks, they became "true" Romans.
Yes, we got gunpowder from China, as well as lot of other things, and those are only things.

And by the way im talking about "game culture" the whole time (except for the 1st post regarding culture and trade), and how trade affects stuff. So, what i was trying to say is that the trade ALONE cannot influence the cultural spread of other civ in the way game perceives culture. If you want to debate about culture in real world we can make another topic and do it. Culture in this game is a bit different.

EDIT:
I am amazed how u animate the objects: "We Europeans only were so totally crazed about their porcelain that "China" actually became a synonym for it."
I dont know about that but i will assume its true. Those were and are just bloody material objects that carry or dont carry a bigger picture. Without a message i mentioned, there is not a major culture spread. If i import porcelain from u and i have no clue about it i will be really amazed by the quality of it and i might be talking to ppl where it came from, but what else will i know about u and what other message will i be able to share with others? Its like tasting a new unknown fruit. I will enjoy it and i will know nothing about it - therefore its just a fruit.

Give it a rest. You yourself said in Pie's thread that you didn't know much about history. It's ok to be wrong. Don't bring your personal assumptions into it just like that. Trade has always influenced culture to different degrees (or do we have a different definition of culture?). A single trade good can mean a lot actually. If it doesn't, it still causing influence.
Trade means goods and oral and personal contact with others. People of Ancient Europe and around influenced one another since remote times.
Also educated Romans became definitely closer to greeks in culture that greeks to "true" romans (what is that, btw?). Roman Culture is heavily influenced by the greeks (and greek culture was influenced by egypt,and many others, bla bla bla). The Romans themselves said that the conquerors were conquered as well.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Thanks for the explanation karadoc.
Personally i prefer automove style in unmodded bts, in my opinion it make the game feels more fluid, but i think you know what the best for this mod though.

No. Just no. Objectively no.

It's never OK in a turn-based game, to have the game force units to take actions that cause them to suicide without the player having the opportunity to tell them not to suicide. Suicidal units are a bad thing and karadoc's change was a very important one. The vanilla mechanics were BUGGED when it comes to units moving into danger even as someone tried to interrupt them, please don't support bugs or adding them back .

Panzers/SEALS are terrible in ancient starts; literally worthless in value-over-base because of how late they are. Adding flanking to the panzer would do almost nothing to cure its weakness.

Maybe if you gave the panzer 37 strength or the SEAL 28+ strength you might have something strong enough to actually be game-changing in the era it shows up. And yes, that would STILL leave them weaker than war chariot, immortal, prat, etc even though it sounds ridiculous. It's a comparable net str increase on a much later/less likely to have an impact unit. That late in the game, missiles, air power, massed collateral, gunships, and nukes all would allow even a basic faction to easily beat panzers anyway.

But instead, the panzers in default game are a laughably terrible 28 base str and in the majority of cases have equal utility to tanks. Waiting the longest out of ANY UU to get a benefit that's rarely realized! Fun! Flanking I helps but it doesn't even come close to addressing the disparity of the bonus that early units get + the advantage of having them early. It is actually LESS of an absolute advantage than the early units...though I can certainly see wanting to implement balance changes slowly.

I'm aware that giving panzers a STR boost will make them destroy anti-tanks and (briefly, very briefly) have no counter. I don't see an issue with that; people will know the threat is approaching and have to prepare by getting flight earlier (for fighters to soften them) or stocking up on arty. Considering how long you have to wait to use the units, it's perfectly reasonable that there is a window (preferably a decent one) where said units are difficult to stop.

 

[En_Dotter]

Give it a rest. You yourself said in Pie's thread that you didn't know much about history. It's ok to be wrong. Don't bring your personal assumptions into it just like that. Trade has always influenced culture to different degrees (or do we have a different definition of culture?). A single trade good can mean a lot actually. If it doesn't, it still causing influence.

I do not know history much that is true. But it happens i live with a phD of archaeology and i have quite a few of them as friends. Guess what i wanted to suggest to Pie? Then i asked the experts and they explained it doesnt work like that. So i wont give it a rest. Cus those are not my assumptions but something more. Its called science.

 

[gps]

I am amazed how u animate the objects: "We Europeans only were so totally crazed about their porcelain that "China" actually became a synonym for it."
I dont know about that but i will assume its true. Those were and are just bloody material objects that carry or dont carry a bigger picture. Without a message i mentioned, there is not a major culture spread.

Well, just to get an idea search for "Meissen porcelain" and "Porcelain manufacturing companies in Europe" at wikipedia. And this is just the very first example that came to my mind for how trade has an influence on culture and artists. Think about coffee, think about potatoes, think about horses (which the Spanish brought to America), think about spices, think about jeans, cars, comics and the I-Phone, think about Sushi and Hamburgers, think about Hollywood movies. All examples for trade having direct and changing influence on peoples life and lifestyle.

 

[En_Dotter]

Guys u are mixing game and reality the entire time. I will try again.
In K-mod trade culture makes the city plot gain other culture and because of that u will be able to flip it easier. Goods on their own dont change ur nationality but influence u in one way or another. The fact u imported something u dont have from a totally different nation doesnt slowly make your people theirs. It influences culture in a way to maybe learn new things and/or perfect the current ones. In no way does the trade change your ethnicity. As i mentioned before u need more than that - scholars, philosophers, teachers, priests, etc. etc... Now if u cant make a difference between the game and reality i wont write anymore. Im just saying karadoc implemented something that isnt coherent with history. I dont say he should remove it (its a bloody game), just pointing out the common mistake people make (i made it as well, but i clarified it with experts in that area). Now if u dont or wont understand that then live in a lie.

 

[Horatius]

I do not know history much that is true. But it happens i live with a phD of archaeology and i have quite a few of them as friends. Guess what i wanted to suggest to Pie? Then i asked the experts and they explained it doesnt work like that. So i wont give it a rest. Cus those are not my assumptions but something more. Its called science.

Very good that you asked. Now, what exactly was what you asked and how? Maybe they didn't understand the point or something. Or maybe they're too stuck with their vision. Pretty common.
Anyhow, Phd or not, that doesn't impress me. I've met plenty of those having graduated in classics studies about ancient rome and greece. Doesn't impress me at all and I know something myself.

You should study for yourself then, instead of this pointless argument.
I think that you have probably a more narrow and specific definition of culture and that is causing problems here.

 

[gps]

The fact u imported something u dont have from a totally different nation doesnt slowly make your people theirs. It influences culture in a way to maybe learn new things and/or perfect the current ones. In no way does the trade change your ethnicity.

Well, maybe it's actually your mistake to confuse culture and ethnicity? And also that you limit 'trade' on items delivered? Have a look at the US. Lots of totally different enthnicities from all parts of the world, but most of them (after one or two generations) are proud to be US-American and sharing the same (westernized) culture.

 

[En_Dotter]

Read my previous post please.
Ok this was my question:
I want to suggest something in PAE and i want ur expert opinion on it. Can a culture spread via trade? Then she asked me it can but what do you mean? Then i explained it like this. Culture in CIV works how it works (i explained in detail) and asked if trade could be one of the triggers in city flipping events. My basis for that question was based on potential usage of merchants (in PAE) not only to gain gold but to spread some of the culture to help assimilation. She said that trade on its own does not influence other cultures in that way. It does influence it but not in the way that people of that city would feel they belong to any other nation no matter how long the trade is in action. In order to use trade to influence city flipping you would need either a priest or a spy attached to the merchant (game mechanics) and then it would be legit but not using a pure merchant (which PAE has). What is needed for trade to achieve that purpose of "assimilation" you need some kind of trigger like priests, scholars, philosophers, spies and similar people that could attach greater meaning to goods ur trading.

Satisfied now?
And no, i dont want to study that cus i have what to do besides seldom interest in history and prehistory, and however narrow her view is its much wider than most archaeologists have.
Somehow she is criticizing a lot more than im used to hearing from them as well as checking tons on articles and similar stuff before even thinking about making a conclusion. So id say its far from narrow.

 

[En_Dotter]

Well, maybe it's actually your mistake to confuse culture and ethnicity?

Is it me that is mixing culture and ethnicity or the game?

 

[Horatius]

Guys u are mixing game and reality the entire time. I will try again.
In K-mod trade culture makes the city plot gain other culture and because of that u will be able to flip it easier. Goods on their own dont change ur nationality but influence u in one way or another. The fact u imported something u dont have from a totally different nation doesnt slowly make your people theirs. It influences culture in a way to maybe learn new things and/or perfect the current ones. In no way does the trade change your ethnicity. As i mentioned before u need more than that - scholars, philosophers, teachers, priests, etc. etc... Now if u cant make a difference between the game and reality i wont write anymore. Im just saying karadoc implemented something that isnt coherent with history. I dont say he should remove it (its a bloody game), just pointing out the common mistake people make (i made it as well, but i clarified it with experts in that area). Now if u dont or wont understand that then live in a lie.

So your problem is not culture in geral, it's ethnicity.
In that respect, purely just trade doesn't mean that blood will start mingling just like that. Especially with the ancient institutions of the family, clan, etc and it's traditions.

It does/will influence thought, behaviour and culture in geral.

 

[Horatius]

Read my previous post please.
It does influence it but not in the way that people of that city would feel they belong to any other nation no matter how long the trade is in action.

This is true. All clear now.

 

[gps]

It does influence it but not in the way that people of that city would feel they belong to any other nation no matter how long the trade is in action.

Hmmm, also the concept of nation and nationalism is a late 18th century invention, that does not really apply for more than 5,5+ thousand years of in-gametime. Maybe Romas felt they were Romans - but most of the rest of the world probably did not think they way we think today about nations. Also most part of the roman empire were other conquered or otherwise subdued "ethnicities". But I am pretty sure they all knew they had aquaducts, legions or slavery and enjoyed gladiator games.

 

[Horatius]

Hmmm, also the concept of nation and nationalism is a late 18th century invention, that does not really apply for more than 5,5+ thousand years of in-gametime. Maybe Romas felt they were Romans - but most of the rest of the world probably did not think they way we think today about nations. Also most part of the roman empire were other conquered or otherwise subdued "ethnicities". But I am pretty sure they all knew they had aquaducts, legions or slavery and enjoyed gladiator games.

No, it depends: for example, Greece was composed of many different cities and villages that were "independent" and were warring with each other quite a lot (the modern notion of the "philosophical" and "moderate" greeks is actually quite funny) - They still felt like Greeks that belonged to a common culture. Not a big modern country with bounderies but they were Hellenes.
Gaul also, etc.

The notion of modern nation is different, of course, but people had what connected them. Maybe more then than now.

 

[gps]

They still felt like Greeks that belonged to a common culture. Not a big modern country with bounderies but they were Hellenes.

Exactly, and when they were bored, those Hellenes boarded ship, sailed up and down the Mediterranen, traded with the natives, established a trading post here and there - and basically spread their culture everywhere. It's actually still around with many of it's myths and achievements because it's the intellectual heart and soul of our whole western hemisphere - although not every European (or US-American) is enthnically a Greek. That's precisely what we are talking about the whole time...

 

[karadoc]

Im just saying karadoc implemented something that isnt coherent with history. I dont say he should remove it (its a bloody game), just pointing out the common mistake people make (i made it as well, but i clarified it with experts in that area). Now if u dont or wont understand that then live in a lie.

I think I see what you mean now. But it seems to me that what you're talking about isn't so much that my trade culture mechanics are unrealistic, but rather that the whole cultural dominance means ownership mechanic is unrealistic. I don't think real-life theatres and artists would help to 'flip' foreign cities any more than trade would.

Lenowill also mentioned that culture realistically would have much more varied and dynamic effects - rather than just unhappiness from 'yearning', and culture-flipping. I do think there's scope to do something new and interesting with culture in Civ4, but I currently don't intend any major shake-ups in this mod. From a gameplay point of view, I actually like the way culture-pressure works currently. (The unhappiness thing is a bit so-so, but I like the mechanics for the cultural ownership of land.)

 

[En_Dotter]

I think I see what you mean now. But it seems to me that what you're talking about isn't so much that my trade culture mechanics are unrealistic, but rather that the whole cultural dominance means ownership mechanic is unrealistic.

Pretty much. But again games are not about realism as much as they are about fun. And i enjoy this game and this mod the most

This is true. All clear now.

Seems i dont have as good communication skills as i thought. Srry it took me that long to explain my thoughts.