K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

Scenario 2 - the AI's capital is on the coast. Well in this scenario I'd give you a 99% chance of winning. It doesn't matter if the AI has 5 times as many military units, or 10 times.

I suspect you might be exaggerating the problem a bit. How often do you think this kind of thing happens? ie. how often do you win the game only because the AI has their capital on the coast? I think it's pretty clear that if the AI really did have 5 times as many military units as you have, then they _should_ be able to defend their capital. If they can't do that, surely it's a failure of the AI rather than a failure of the game mechanics.

(By the way, when I play, I often move my palace inland - partially to get a better bureaucracy capital, and partially to reduce the vulnerability in the end-game. The AI doesn't currently do that, but maybe it should...)

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Regarding balance stuff, I'm in two minds about the Dun stuff. I think having the Guerrilla promotion and the +2 xp for melee might be a little bit too powerful for such a cheap and early building. I'd like it to be just the +2 xp for melee, and no Guerrilla promotion - but I don't really like to take away parts of the game that people are use to, or that people might like and think are well fitting etc. So I'm not really sure what I should do about it.

Here are some options:
  1. Keep the promotion and add the melee experience.
  2. Keep the promotion and add +1:culture:, but don't add the experience.
  3. Remove the promotion, and add the experience. (and maybe add the :culture: as well)

For musketeers, I'm thinking +3 first strike chances. I think that's probably a suitable balance change, and it might be amusing to some people...
 
I like option 1, but maybe increase the building cost. Also maybe not have the dun +2 experience effect the gallic warrior (too strong?)

I like the proposed musketeer changes, but the salon needs alot help as well...

Suggestions (not combined) for Salon

1. (remove artist)
2. +15% research
3. +4 production
4. +5 beakers per turn
5. 10-15% production discount for gunpowder units
6. +25% great people points

My personal favorites from the list are 3 and 6.

Salon Description:

A salon is a gathering of people under the roof of an inspiring host, held partly to amuse one another and partly to refine the taste and increase the knowledge of the participants through conversation. These gatherings often consciously followed Horace's definition of the aims of poetry, "either to please or to educate" ("aut delectare aut prodesse est"). Salons, commonly associated with French literary and philosophical movements of the 17th and 18th centuries, were carried on until quite recently in urban settings.
 
Have you considered adding that pre-chopping option, Karadoc?

I don't know much about Civ4 modding, but how possible would it be to change chopping so that it would create a small steady flow of hammers on the turns before the forest disappears, and a bigger chunk on the last turn, after asking if you want to remove the forest (the way it is in BULL)?

Formula could be something like 50% of chopping yield would spread among the chopping turns before the last one, and 50% would be gained on the last turn.

The hammer flow on the first turns could be thought as some kind of harvesting, and the last turn would clear the forest and thus provide a bigger hammer yield.

I think that'd make prechopping less of an exploit, what do you think?
 
Just wanted to weigh in on a few things;

For musketeers, I'm thinking +3 first strike chances. I think that's probably a suitable balance change, and it might be amusing to some people...

I like this idea, but first strikes are kind of the Oromo Warrior's schtick. It may make the two units a little two similar.

Suggestions (not combined) for Salon

1. (remove artist)
2. +15% research
3. +4 production
4. +5 beakers per turn
5. 10-15% production discount for gunpowder units
6. +25% great people points

My personal favorites from the list are 3 and 6.

My solution was to replace the free artist with a free specialist, to keep to the theme of the building while making it a bit more useful. Otherwise, I think a smaller research bonus (10%?)or a larger great person rate bonus (50%) would fit nicely.
 
I don't see how pre-chopping is an exploit? You clearly have to expend worker turns to do it, and this investment doesn't even get you anything until it "pays off" when you finally chop the forest. Seems like a fair trade off to me.

Also, I don't see how giving you production before the forest is actually removed would nerf pre-chopping. In fact, with such a rule I would pre-chop every forest, even those I intend to keep.
 
Many celtic tribes lived for fighting but celtic warriors in battle lacked proper combat organization. Dun should increase unit production a bit instead of xp.
 
gah! I wasn't exaggerating. The AI could have literally 5 times the number of military units as you, and you could still take a coastal city very easily because currently there is no way to defend against a sneak coastal attack. It's unlike a land invasion, it's unlike an air assault. A water based attack is completely different. Add to that the fact that in Civ, losing 1 key city will decide the game - either a legendary city or a capital. Does it effect every game? No, but this scenario plays out in most of my games that make it to the late-game.

As for the Dun, 2 xp would work but lack flavour. However, giving guerilla promotions to archery units is near useless for the celts. If the Dun provided a more useful promotion, say, shock, it would work better.
 
Noto

Human players leave ships out as scouts to see fleets coming, ai just isnt smart enough to know when to declare war when a huge fleet gets close by.

That said, I think "intercept" missions in your own culture borders, for battleships and/or cruisers and/or subs, would be realistic.
 
Giving Guerrilla II for free would be a bit problematic, because it would be granted to all melee units (as well as all gunpowder and archery units). G1 is blocked for melee units - but G2 is not (which is why Gallic Warriors are able to choose to get G2 when they level-up). This would mean that all melee units would have G2, and thus they could pick G3 as their first normal promotion. That would be some rock'n powerful macemen coming out of every dun city. That's probably alright for flavour, but maybe too powerful in terms of balance; and it would completely undercut the uniqueness of Gallic Warriors.

gah! I wasn't exaggerating. The AI could have literally 5 times the number of military units as you, and you could still take a coastal city very easily because currently there is no way to defend against a sneak coastal attack. It's unlike a land invasion, it's unlike an air assault. A water based attack is completely different. Add to that the fact that in Civ, losing 1 key city will decide the game - either a legendary city or a capital. Does it effect every game? No, but this scenario plays out in most of my games that make it to the late-game.

As for the Dun, 2 xp would work but lack flavour. However, giving guerilla promotions to archery units is near useless for the celts. If the Dun provided a more useful promotion, say, shock, it would work better.
Well, let me put it this way: If I was in an adversarial multiplayer game against you, and I had 5x as many military units, and my job was to defend a couple of coastal cities for, say, 30 turns to win the game. I reckon I could do it without much trouble. And if our roles were reversed, I'm pretty sure you could do it too.

I agree that coastal cities are extremely vulnerable compared to inland cities; but 5x military is a very large advantage. 5x military would mean for every enemy fighter trying to air-strike me, I'd have 5 of my own fighters ready to intercept. For every battleship, I'd have 5. For every marine, I'd have 5... (although I probably wouldn't be building marines for defense.) The main problem with coastal cities is that the enemy can attack them from a long way away, and so they can threaten multiple cities at once. But with 5x the number of military units it wouldn't really matter that multiple cities are threatened, because the important cities could each have more units in them than the entirety of the enemy's military. Beating those cities would be near impossible. (unless you were using nukes, in which case all bets are off.)

As for the Dun, 2 xp would work but lack flavour. However, giving guerilla promotions to archery units is near useless for the celts. If the Dun provided a more useful promotion, say, shock, it would work better.
The 2xp would be only for melee units.. so there is a little bit of flavour still. There's nothing currently in the game which gives xp only to melee units; so that would be a unique effect. (The Native Americans' UB gives xp archery units, and the Spanish UB gives xp to siege units... so it's not completely unique.)

Shock would be a more useful promotion than Guerrilla I, but I don't see it as being particularly flavorful. Also, shock would be granted to a larger subset of units than the current free promotion is. Shock is available to melee, archery, mounted, and siege.

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That said, I think "intercept" missions in your own culture borders, for battleships and/or cruisers and/or subs, would be realistic.
How do you envisage the game mechanics for that? Perhaps extend sea-patrol so that adjacent bombard missions count as attacks (in addition to adjacent pillage missions)? Is that what you have in mind?
 
Another way to decrease the power of sea attaks would be to increase the hammer cost of sea transports.
 
I envisage the game mechanic of sea "intercept" that if a civ is 1. at war with you 2. within a certain range of the unit set to intercept, say between 3-5 range. 3. Within your own cultural borders. So just moving close enough to a battleship set on intercept would cause it to attack.

You could keep 3 or 4 battleships (or more) in your valuable coastal cities, so you will punish a naval force without enough proper military support.

You might have a better idea of it's use than me ofc.

Im curious what way you'll want to make the french Salon/Musketeer better, as well, Karadoc.
 
The Salon is not going to be the target of any immediate changes. In my view, it is already better than a bunch of existing UBs, including Obelisk, Mall, Hippodrome, and a few others; so I don't think its really in urgent need of change.

For musketeers, I thought that the +3 first strike chances would be a fair an easy change - but Jabarto raises a good point about the Oromo Warriors which I hadn't thought of. The first strikes would be stepping on the Oromos' toes a little bit. But I'm not completely put off the idea. Oromos would still a couple of advantages to distinguish them: immunity to first strikes, and promotions which persist after upgrading and which unlock more advanced promotions immediately.

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Regarding that kind of sea intercept... it sounds like it might be quite confusing to play with; especially if the range was more than the vision range of the units... You'd just take a step and suddenly find yourself attacking a unit from nowhere. And where would the units end their turns after such an event took place? Would the intercepter be moved to be adjacent to the interceptee; or the other way around; or neither moved? I think it would be quite weird in any case. If neither moved, it would be as if the ships had some really really long attack range which they don't normally have when they aren't using this intercept mission - and if they did move, it would be as if the ships had some special 'reserve' movement points which can only be used in these kinds of situations.

If the range was only 1 plot it wouldn't be as strange.

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is it a bug or intentional getCurrentEra() returns actual current era -1 ? Thanks
It doesn't subtract one. The era counting starts at zero, that's all. (ie. the Ancient era is #0, not #1.)
 
Alot of those civs with bad (but early game which is good) UBs, also have awesome early game Unique units and leader traits.

France has a bad mid game UU and a late ocurring and bad UB. I dont much like France's leader traits either lol...

But you are the boss :D


how about giving musketeers a free level 1 city attack (that wont be upgradeable with exp ofc) ?
 
I don't see how pre-chopping is an exploit? You clearly have to expend worker turns to do it, and this investment doesn't even get you anything until it "pays off" when you finally chop the forest. Seems like a fair trade off to me.

Also, I don't see how giving you production before the forest is actually removed would nerf pre-chopping. In fact, with such a rule I would pre-chop every forest, even those I intend to keep.

Prechopping large amounts of forest squares and finally chopping them when you have a wonder to be built with hefty production bonuses is a bit cheesy.

But anyway I just wan't the BULL pre-chop option added to K-Mod in some form, it really reduces micromanagering a lot :)
 
I wasn't talking about naval invasions in a multiplayer game, or even the AI launching naval invasions against me. I'm not complaining about a feature that leads to my defeat. I'm complaining about a feature that makes the game too easy. Yes of course I can defend against naval invasions, it's not that difficult, for a human. I'm talking about the AI. And I still stand by the 5x argument. Even if the AI has 5 times the military units I have, they won't have 5x in their capital. I could have 50 and they could have 250, but only 30 in the capital. I then go and raze their capital 6 turns before their spaceship lands, and 15 turns before mine lands, thus winning the game because the AI can't raze my capital in 15 turns since I moved it inland. Whatever, if you don't want to change it I'll just play with razing off, but I just wanted to point out something that makes the game about 0.5-1 difficulty level too easy. When the AI goes for space and their capital is coastal, or when they go for culture and one legendary city is coastal, you would have to try very hard to lose that game, it's basically yours for the taking. The only thing the AI does with any remote sense of competence (and even this is a big stretch) in Kmod, is military conquest. I've had games where I get dogpiled and overpowered, and I've lost. But never has the AI ever beat me by spaceship or culture, it's just not possible. 99% of the reason for that is because of coastal cities. Not even exaggerating slightly.
 
I wasn't talking about naval invasions in a multiplayer game, or even the AI launching naval invasions against me. I'm not complaining about a feature that leads to my defeat. I'm complaining about a feature that makes the game too easy. Yes of course I can defend against naval invasions, it's not that difficult, for a human. I'm talking about the AI. [...]

I think it's pretty clear that if the AI really did have 5 times as many military units as you have, then they _should_ be able to defend their capital. If they can't do that, surely it's a failure of the AI rather than a failure of the game mechanics.

What the hell are we discussing here?
 
I dont want to speak for noto....but it seems like hes changed his focus from asking for "intercept" defending naval units...

...to asking for "greater naval and land defense priority for cultural win cities by the ai" and possibly "better utilization of late game military tactics by the ai, bombers, anti air units, use of units as scouts, and use of larger stacks in general".

Thats what I think is happening, anyway

I think maybe we should all recognize how highly skilled Karadoc is, and how spoiled we are to be getting so much more how out of our civ4.
 
What do you think about making unit cost support proportional to era? Support is negligible fraction in the latest era and produce massive number of units since they cost almost nothing to have. This tiny change will make it intersting. I am currently testing it.
// K-Mod
int CvPlayer::getUnitCostMultiplier() const
{
int iMultiplier = 100;
iMultiplier *= GC.getHandicapInfo(getHandicapType()).getUnitCostPercent();
iMultiplier *= ((int)getCurrentEra()+1); //THIS
iMultiplier /= 100;
 
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