K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

I play with events on, so running Slavery does have the added disadvantage of revolts. Even with that it is still the go to civic for every single game and Serfdom doesn't really need the disadvantage so I suppose I agree.

Ugghh the Inca... they're head and shoulders above the rest of the civs; in fact I just posted the same Terrace nerf in the suggestion thread.

Duns only give guerrilla to units that can already get the promotion: archers, longbows, muskets, grenadiers. This is the case K-Mod or not. Gaelic Warrior starts with the promo anyways so it's only getting the +1xp from a Dun. It's all right there in the first post spoiler from version 1.38 which is, IMO, extremely readable. : )

I think this was a great change for one of the weakest UBs. Celts are so much fun to play now their elite units are right up there with Spain and Mongolia.

I play with events on too, and maybe see an average of one revolt per game in builder games, maybe 2-3 in warmonger games. Not enough to counterbalance 30 base hammers for ~15 food for the most decisive portion of the game.

I think everyone is in agreement about the Inca. I'm considering learning python/xml just so I can fix them.

Derp. I never bothered with the Celts until K-mod, so it goes to show my inexperience with the dun. I'll just enjoy the new one then!
 
I'd like to see religious wonders a little more consistent about spreading religion. I dont know if Im just mega unlucky, but religious wonders rarely spread religion even twice all game...
 
For a while I thought K-Mod had gotten rid of mines discovering resources cause it seemed like a long time between games since I discovered anything. I was gonna come post about it but then yesterday I got a Silver. It was in a production city, but +2 happy... yes please! : )

I don't know if religion spreading with or without Shrines is changed in K-Mod. I know it does still spread and I think it helps to be close and have trade routes. Most of the religion I get tends to come from AI missionaries though.

Heh, they build shrines and send me missionaries and I send them back my armies to take it from them. : P

Spoiler :
KhgPuv9.jpg

Here we see Sparta (with the silver) producing 1 turn Catapults during my golden age...

Spoiler :
 
I don't know how hard it would be to fix, but one feature that I exploit all the time is the tile yields button. Clicking it shows not what you think a tile would be worth, but what the tile is actually worth. I call it exploitable because I use it all the time to figure out where the AI's iron mine is before I've researched Iron Working. Later on once you've explored the map you can tell where the AI has built Moai Statues or like when they change their improvements from a cottage to workshop.

I think tile yields should only show what the tile would be worth based on your position in game. So like if you don't have Iron Working an AI mine should just be a mine. Also tile yields shouldn't update unless you have vision on the tile, so you don't get free tile improvement info all the time.

I came upon this realization as I was writing up a K-Mod game for the forums (shameless self promotion).
 
okay... I had a week off so I've been trying to get a game of Civ going. What the F@% is going on with the current version of Kmod? I just had 3 games in a row where the entire continent dogpiled me for no reason. In each game there is absolutely no reason why I would be attacked, I'm not the lowest in power and other civs were different religions while I had no religion, and other civs walked across the continent (shared no borders with me) to attack me.

Example: My neighbour Germany attacks me for no apparent reason other than we share borders. Okay... I completely obliterate Germany's forces (think like 2 swords and 12 chariots being wiped out by holkans, I lose 2 units, he loses 14). So his power goes into the toilet. I keep building troops, I'm about to counterattack when Willem attacks me... he's on the other side of the continent. So I hold off Willem too, with most of the casualties occurring on his side. I then adopt Hinduism as the last civ on my continent - America - is Hindu. Then, as I'm fighting off the Germans and Dutch, America attacks as well. I swear this has happened 3 games in a row, this crap didn't happen that often in previous versions so what am I missing???
 
where did karadoc disappear!?!?!?
I wish I knew.

Hello. I want to ask something, I have tech splash screens turned off. Withouth K-Mod I only hear Nimoy or Sid saying "You have reasrched...", but with K-Mod quotes are played. Is there any way to revert it to the vanilla way?

Also, I saw a post in this forum saying that global warming is a way to penalize players who use too much nukes. Since this is removed K-Mod remvoed the old global warming triggers was something introduced in order to compensate that?
There currently isn't a way to revert the quotes back to the plain "you have discovered..." speach. Sorry about that. I should probably make it a 'BUG' option. In my view, the "you have discovered..." announcement is pretty boring, and name of the tech being discovered is shown in the message log anyway — so I told the game to always play the full discovery quote instead. The main reason I changed it is that I wanted the full quote to be played in multiplayer games. This was one of the very first changes in K-Mod, and you're the first person I've notice mention it. :p

Regarding global warming being a way to penalize players for using nukes - I'm not sure if that was really the original intention of global warming, but even if it was, I don't think it was a good idea. Firstly, it doesn't make physical sense. Nuclear bombs would not cause global warming. If anything, they'd probably cause global cooling (ie. nuclear winter). Secondly, it doesn't punish the player using the bombs. It just punishes the whole world - and so it isn't really an effective deterrent. Anyway, I haven't explicitly introduced anything new to penalize the usage of nukes, but I have increased the life-time of fallout. ie. The probability that the fallout from bombs will just disappear on its own is smaller in K-Mod, and so it is more important that the player make an active effort to 'scrub' the fallout.

I think I have noticed a bug. In the game screen, when i click on a leader name while pressing Shift+Alt to toggle the war plan no icon is shown. However, I think vassals still prepare for war.
You're right about that. I'd forgotten that I hadn't completely disabled that. It's a BBAI feature that I disabled in multiplayer games because it caused OOS errors - and then I basically just forgot about it. I was intending to create a way to tell vassals to prepare for war in the diplomacy screen, and to make it multiplayer compatible, and after that I would then re-enable the alt+shift shortcut. I just haven't got around to any of that stuff. It's a fair bit of work for a feature that will rarely be used. But it would be good to have it done. In the mean time, I think I'll disable it completely, for consistency with multiplayer, and also because I don't like it when game mechanics rely on knowing some obscure keyboard shortcut... It really needs to be on the diplomacy screen.

1. Slavery is still the most overpowered civic in the game, and everyone knows it. My suggestion: move the -1:commerce: from towns from serfdom to slavery.
I don't think I'll do that. The -1:commerce: on towns is a late game effect. It wouldn't make a lot of difference to slavery being powerful in the early and mid-game, and the usefulness of slavery falls off in the late game anyway as city become bigger. (Large cities need more :food: to grow, and so the effective :food:->:hammers: conversion of slavery becomes weaker as cities get larger.) On the other hand, serfdom needs a late-game penalty because the farm bonus from serfdom is still effective in the late game.

I agree that Slavery is very powerful. I think probably the fairest / most balanced way to nerf serfdom would be to increase the population requirement so that cities can only whip 1/3 of their population rather than 1/2. (ie. keep the same 30:hammers: per population, but increase the minimum city size. Cities would need to be size 3 to whip 1 population, and size 6 to whip 2, etc.) I'm kind of reluctant to do that though because I think it would have such a significant impact on how the game is played. And although slavery is very powerful, I'm not really convinced the game would be more fun if slavery was less powerful. I'm just not really sure if it should be changed.

2. The Inca are still the most overpowered civilization in the game and everyone knows it. My suggestions: reduce the terrace to 1:culture: and/or remove the free combat I promotion from the quechua.
I agree. I think I will do the terrace culture nerf. I've been thinking about both of those option for awhile. The thing about Inca is that their strength isn't just from one overpowerful aspect. It's just that all of their unique stuff is pretty good. The leader traits are good, the unique building is good, and the unique unit is good. ... but none of them on their own are too good, except possibly the quechua when doing a quechua rush... super-early rushes like that are just a can-of-worms. ... I wonder if it would hurt Inca too much to do both of the things you suggested. I just did a quick internet search for "quechua" to see if I could get some inspiration for some more situation-dependent bonuses for that unit, but it didn't help me. Apparently it's the name of a language rather than a type of warrior. ... Another thing I've considered is increasing the cost of quechuas from 15 :hammers: to 20 :hammers:.

3. The dun: firstly, the last game I played as the Celts, my axemen did not receive the free guerrilla I promotion. The building description says that it still provides this, so perhaps it is a bug. Or, you removed this bonus when you gave it the +1 exp to melee bonus, and I just missed it in the changelog (note: the changelog is kind of a pain to read through, if it were consolidated to changes by type instead of version, so all the balance changes were together, and all the AI/bugs stuff shortened to "Improved AI/Fixed bugs" it would be much more readable).
That's the same as it has always been. Only units that can choose guerrilla I normal will get it for free from the Dun.

I agree that it isn't easy to directly compare K-Mod to unmodded BtS by just looking at the changelog - but that's not something I intend to work on myself. I already make the changes, and write a commit log for every change I make to the source code, and then gather and edit that log to create a concise and readable changelog for each new version... it would be a chore to then collect all of the changelogs to collate them into a single direct comparison against the unmodded game. It's something a bunch of people have asked for, and I don't want to do it. Someone else could do that just as easily as me. (Last time someone asked for this I was feeling a bit grumpy or something and I gave them a quite a terse response... I was also a bit annoyed that they said such a comparison document was "the least you could do" - as though I'm somehow obliged to do this stuff.)

Secondly, the +1 exp to melee is very strong in the hands of Boudica due to the synergy with aggressive + charismatic. Starting with combat I gives access to the "vs. unit type" and medic promotions, and another promotion on top, since charismatic means 2 promotions at 4 exp. This enables you to build combat II formation spears, combat I city raider II axemen, combat 1 guerrilla III Gallic warriors, combat 1 medic 2 any melee, along with numerous other possibilities which can be tailored to the situation. All with no exp civics, no great generals, not a singe battle fought. Later on when exp civics and military instructors come into play you can straight build combat I city raider III macemen, which when upgraded to rifles are absolutely devastating. Is this synergy intended to compensate for the Celts' weak starting techs and mediocre UU?
Yes. The synergy is intended. Here is a thread where I discussed some of this stuff before making the change to the Dun.

Wow so the ai

1. assassinated my governor
2. took a nice sized city

And I have no idea what exactly happens when a city's governor gets assassinated. Felt kinda cool though. Dang crafty ai.

Anyone else know what happens when a spy assassinates your gov?
Assassinating the governor is what happens when someone does the "support city revolt" espionage mission. It creates disorder in the city for 1 turn, and one major effect of the disorder is that the city's defence bonus is reduced to zero.

I don't know how hard it would be to fix, but one feature that I exploit all the time is the tile yields button. Clicking it shows not what you think a tile would be worth, but what the tile is actually worth. I call it exploitable because I use it all the time to figure out where the AI's iron mine is before I've researched Iron Working. Later on once you've explored the map you can tell where the AI has built Moai Statues or like when they change their improvements from a cottage to workshop.

I think tile yields should only show what the tile would be worth based on your position in game. So like if you don't have Iron Working an AI mine should just be a mine. Also tile yields shouldn't update unless you have vision on the tile, so you don't get free tile improvement info all the time.
I generally agree that it's bad when the yields reveal information that the player usually wouldn't know. But that's not as common as you might think.

The yields shown on the map are calculated based on what improvement you last saw on the plot - not on the improvement that is actually on the plot. So you can't use the yields to work out what plot improvements the AI is using in darks areas. Also, the yield bonus from unrevealed resources isn't shown. However, unfortunately the yield bonus of plot improvements related to those resources is shown... so that's an example of when the yields can leak information.

I think it's fine that the yields include the bonuses from techs, civics, golden ages, and leader traits. In fact I think it's probably good to show that stuff.

For Moai Statues, if you have vision of the city itself then you can look closely to see the Moai Statues graphics in the city - and thus the hammer yield around the Moai Statues city isn't revealing any new information unless you don't have vision of the city. Similarly for levees and other stuff like that.

These things can be changed, but it's a little bit tricky. I think the only significant offender for leaking information is the iron mine case, and that's also the hardest one to fix...

okay... I had a week off so I've been trying to get a game of Civ going. What the F@% is going on with the current version of Kmod? I just had 3 games in a row where the entire continent dogpiled me for no reason. In each game there is absolutely no reason why I would be attacked, I'm not the lowest in power and other civs were different religions while I had no religion, and other civs walked across the continent (shared no borders with me) to attack me.
It's probably just bad luck.

By the way, as a rule of thumb, if the AI declares war but does not immediately move a stack into your land on the same turn, then they were probably bribed to start the war by someone else.
 
I have been playing a game and writing some notes as potential feedback. Besides these old ones:

The free unit supply number (in parenthesis) in financial advisor varies based on the amount of units outside my borders. I think it would be more useful if this number was the hard limit of units I can have out at once without cost.

Is there a reason for not having more than 18 player slots?

I used to play some version of BBUGAI. I miss some things of varying importance from there:
-Forest indicates how many turns it has been chopped (mouse hover)
-Cities indicate the amount of turns until next culture level (mouse hover)
-Negative money cost number stays yellow if there is enough money for the next turn, otherwise red

edit:

If I load civilopedia at the main menu, before loading a saved game, it will remain civilopedia in a game where I decided to use sevopedia. This is a bit confusing. I assume it is due to the default not being sevopedia.

edit2:

The default espionage weight is 1. This should be 0 to avoid the situation where the player mistakenly directs espionage to newly met civilizations, when the intention of the player is to focus EP spending.

Some of these earlier points are perhaps due to this mod being based on an earlier BUG version?

This mod on Noble seems to be a bit easier than BBAI on Prince. In general I feel that the tech boost for AI for Prince and higher is a bit dull way to make the game harder. It would be interesting to know more about the design of difficulty levels. As I understand from some of the BBAI xml files, some of the settings make life harder for everyone, and some of the settings differentiate between AI and human (probably on any difficulty). It is a bit unclear what the free happiness/health amounts should "ideally" be and whether the choices benefit human more than AI or not, for example.

It was interesting to notice that religions can now spread to cities with even 2 existing religions. Though by my estimation they didn't spread as well to cities with no religions (I played a relatively isolated game without religions until later game). About new religions replacing old ones (at least with missionaries) - the only thing this meant to me was: If I were building a temple while the religion died, what would happen to the production process? This didn't happen though.

Like without this mod, the AI accepts some dumb trades. Health and happiness resources are complicated, but some strategic resource deals are probably bad for them, the best example being Marble. I can understand them wanting marble for some wonder, but many leaders wanted it a bit too consistently. Perhaps it could be related to the AI attitude modifiers with some stretched logic - do they want to be friendly by accepting trades? Overall AI wrt diplomacy has a lot of potential for improvement, but not in this post.

AI ignores my pirate ships. Specifically: I'm robbing their coast for gold. The AI seems to collect (lesser than frigate) ships to a certain stack in a certain city. Not sure why, as the stack never attacks (perhaps my pirate ships are too stacked for them). The major problem is that the ships being sent to their stack aren't told about my pirate ships in the way, so I get free exp. Sometimes it might be more sensible for the AI to simply not build any ships if they could be doing something smarter.

I haven't played many games with factories before, so I was a bit surprised to see power giving 4 :yuck: after building a coal plant. It isn't very well written anywhere that power gives 2 :yuck:, and I'm not sure why the 2 other :yuck: were associated with power and not the coal plant. In any case my calculations were a bit off. As a side-note: I think the environmental advisor calculated more pollution from power than intended.

I'm not sure if the global warming is a fun mechanic. If I share the responsibility with a bunch of AI (or human) players, I'm not sure if any player can feel like they can control it by playing. It didn't trigger in my last game, though I didn't play to the end of the tech tree (many civs didn't have factories/power).

I noticed that a colony gets free military units in each city when founded. This is completely unrealistic and unfair towards everyone who is at war against the new, suddenly appeared alliance. It would be more fair and more fun if the colony only got the cities - and that it would require me to defend it against any immediate threats. This also applies to cities I liberate to the colony. Additionally: the attitude bonus the colony gives me should depend on the amount of cities it had when founded. Otherwise I can - in a typical conquest case - first form a minimal colony and then liberate new cities to it for free attitude bonus (I'm not sure how much the attitude matters though).

I notice there is some interest in tweaking some weak or strong details. The most obvious one IMO is the financial trait. How about limiting the bonus to cottage-type improvements only? This would almost give room for a seafaring trait. Also, the free +1 :) from charismatic could be removed.
 
No worries about the changelog, I understand it's a hassle. I finally read through the 26,000 word document and figured out what I wanted to know:crazyeye:

The problem with slavery is that it makes building with food more efficient than building with hammers until your cities are big enough that you would want to run caste for the specialists and/or workshops. Rushing as an urgent measure is appropriate, rushing as the main method of production just seems like poor design. Add on top of that the usefulness of whipping to manage the happy cap, and the fact that it's the only rush production available before democracy unless you build/capture the pyramids, and using universal suffrage early from the pyramids is almost always worse than using representation. I think you may underestimate the useful life of the whip. Also, serfdom comes right around the same time as caste system in most games, so it really doesn't have much of a role.

Other possible ideas for changes: make the unhappiness penalty last longer or scale with number of citizens whipped. Reduce the hammers per citizen to 25 or so. Make it so every time you whip it fully empties the city's food bin, eliminating some of the efficiency granted by the granary. Make slavery high upkeep. Make the slave revolt event built into the civic so it triggers even with events off. Just throwing out some ideas, take from it what you will.

Just my humble opinion here - on the fun factor - if free speech of all things deserves the nerfhammer, then slavery does too. I understand that culture works differently and all, but you did basically nerf an entire victory condition. Protective AI's whipping defenders every turn makes early wars such a pain. I usually just forget about war before catapults unless I get invaded. Is the game more fun if slavery is weaker? I say yes.
 
Hmm, it's debateable whether an entire victory condition was nerfed. It's true that in Kmod the actual cultural points output is lower than in the base game... so if you were to just calculate how long it took to achieve a cultural victory let's say, in a game where you're the only civ on the planet, it would indeed come later in Kmod.

But of course you don't play in a vacuum. In the base game I found that flipping cities with culture was almost non-existant. Only fringe cities with no significant city garrison would flip due to culture. In Kmod, culture is MUCH more powerful. When ramping up cultural output I very frequently flip multiple cities in Kmod. Even flipping rival capitals is not unheard of. So, the actual number of cultural points rises a bit slower and thus a cultural victory will go a bit later in the game, but the power of pursuing that strategy has increased greatly. I very much prefer the changes in Kmod, culture is a serious factor in the game now. Before, culture was really only an issue in the very early game, I found
 
I haven't played many games with factories before, so I was a bit surprised to see power giving 4 :yuck: after building a coal plant. It isn't very well written anywhere that power gives 2 :yuck:, and I'm not sure why the 2 other :yuck: were associated with power and not the coal plant. In any case my calculations were a bit off. As a side-note: I think the environmental advisor calculated more pollution from power than intended.
I noticed that too. The 4:yuck: is there if you ALT over the building but nowhere else.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like it or not Slavery in history was how things got done and it was in heavy use from ancient times all the way up to the last century. It should be powerful and it should last a long time so I don't like a 1/3 ratio. Maybe it could have a 1:mad: for having a Courthouse in the city with an exception for Sac Alters. Kinda fits thematically because justice and slavery don't mix.

Serfdom is still only marginally useful during a golden age or for spiritual/financial civs and I don't think financial needs a buff or serfs generating commerce really fits thematcially. If it is actually going to compete with Slavery and CS maybe it could be changed to +1:hammers: for farms and -1:hammers: to railroads?

Also I'm sure this must have been brought up before, but I'd really like that option to have your workers stop chopping a forest 1 turn before completion. I try to manually do it by giving a chop order and remembering to stop them in time. Then sometimes I forget and get annoyed so I start giving chop orders and stopping workers every turn. "Chop, stop, chop, stop, chop, stop, chop, stop... ok now you can finish it."
 
The :yuck: from coal plants is a bit confusing. The coal plant itself actually produces no :yuck: directly, but it does produce +4 :yuck: indirectly: it causes coal to produce +2 :yuck:, and it creates power which also causes +2 :yuck:.

So in terms of the environmental advisor, the coal plant produces zero :yuck: "from buildings", but produces 2 "from power" and 2 "from bonuses".

Having power in a city always generates +2 :yuck: regardless of how the power is produced. K-Mod has not changed this in any way. It has always been like this. I agree that it is poorly communicated inside the game, but I haven't come up with a good way to improve it yet. The problem is that the :yuck: from power isn't directly due to the building. If cities have a few different power generating buildings, the :yuck: from power is only applied once - and so it can't really be associated with individual buildings.

Perhaps in the mouse-over text for power producing buildings I should put "(+2 :yuck: from power)", with the brackets, and only shown if the city doesn't already have power.

--

(I do have some stuff to say in response to other posts here, but I won't do that right now.)
 
Yes, really glad to see Karadoc back to civ4 :D

Have you ever thought about making the priest specialist get an extra resource?

Priest= one hammer one gold
Everything else but the engineer= is 3 or more, 3 research (scientist), 3 gold (merchant) etc etc.

I know that there is that wonder that gives the priest an extra hammer, but I can never get that builing and even if I did, it comes out fairly late for using priests anyway.
 
Yes but in Civ they decided hammers are more valuable than anything else. That's why merchants give 3 gold, scientists 3 beakers, but engineers only 2 hammers. If you have the angkor wat (it's really not hard to get and comes fairly early) then your priests are basically super engineers. Under REP each priest gives 2h, 1g, 3b, in addition to the GPP. You can't buff the priest without removing the angkor wat bonus, which would involve changing that wonder, which is a pretty big change for Kmod - you'll notice Karadoc hasn't really changed any of the wonders

BTW Karadoc, good job with changing the panzer. I just had a game with Germany as a neighbour and kind of forgot about it, until 25 of them invaded me. Was a fun game and the panzer actually mattered!!
 
Just read through the changelog for this mod. I must say I am very impressed with both the effort and that obvious thought for balance that has gone into this project. I like to play with revolutions so I am also very happy to see this mod being merged with revDCM.

I had a quick question. In the changelog you stated
"Fixed a bug which sometimes caused the AI to incorrectly think it could not attack."

My understanding is that currently in base BTS with better AI if you create a wall of units between your civ and the AI civ that AI will not attack as it thinks it has no way to attack you (some sort of pathfinding bug). Is this the bug that K-Mod fixes or is it something else?

Edit: Never mind I found the answer later in the changelog you fixed it. Thanks that was a very annoying bug. Its a big change log. I printed it out and it was 61 pages =)

Edit 2: So I finished reading through the changelog. I pretty much agree with almost everything you have done except for possibly this

"Tech trades in which the receiving player is more then 2/3 of the way through researching the tech or when the tech is behind the 'game era' no longer count towards tech trade memory."

Does 'game era' mean the players current era? If so doesn't that result in strange game play strategies such as prioritizing research one tech into the next era so you can then back trade for what you want without any tech memory. If that's the case shouldn't it be 'game era -1' instead
 
I know that hammers are better than beakers or gold. Thats why I didnt say anything about the engineer specialists being weak.

And saying that with that one wonder that priests are "super engineers" for 2 hammers and 1 gold is pretty dramatic/not true.

I dont know what difficulty you are playing where getting any wonder is guarenteed and if it is "easy" for you- particularly if you dont play an industrious civ- then you might want to go up a notch on your difficulty :D
 
Thanks for your answers Karadoc. I think that what you say about global warming makes sense.

Now, I have noticed that when I declare war on someone else by dragging my units into foreign territory the "¿Do you want to declare war?" sign appears two times. It doesn't matter what option is chosen, it always appears two times. Ihaven't uploaded any savegame because I think it always happens (it has happened in my las three games), but I will upload one if you want it.
 
I agree. I think I will do the terrace culture nerf. ... Another thing I've considered is increasing the cost of quechuas from 15 :hammers: to 20 :hammers:.

For the long game I would actually argue the Dutch are equal to the Inca in power. True they don't have quite the early punch of the Inca but the combination of financial with levee lets them turn every costal square in the game into squares that produce 2 :food: 1 :hammers: 3 :commerce: giving them an economic advantage that no other civ can come close to matching. As their levee does not need a river to be built it is insanely powerful for any game that is not decided early on.

I advise caution when making changes to the fundamental mechanics of civilizations. I rarely use the Inca (usually play Dutch or Carthage) but people get persnickety about stuff like this. Nerf both at once seems like overkill to me. I like the increase in hammer cost to 20 :hammers: as that is totally justified. That or the culture change would be fine but perhaps not both.

I agree that Slavery is very powerful... I'm just not really sure if it should be changed.

Slavery is fine when playing with revolutions. Its powerful but it increases the risk of your civ collapsing into civil war. True that probably does not matter for non revolutions players, but as the K-Mod RevDCM merge is looking to be almost stable I vote for no change.
 
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