Kerbal Space Program

[hobbsyoyo]

You got guys off of Eve? Hat's off to you!

I'm not even going to try that for a long time. Certainly not until they come out with more engines and tanks.
___

I am also going to have change the flight profile of my landers. Much like you found, doing a continuous burn for a large ship with low T/W means you can't reliable do a burn in one go. Because I'm accelerating so slowly, I find that I travel a significant distance on my orbit before I am able to escape Kerbin's SoI, which throws off my angles a lot. I'm going to have to burn a bit, wait till I loop around on an accentric orbit and then burn again.

 

[ls612]

What I learned from my modular Munar base is that it's absolutely critical to make sure your clampotrons are lined up exactly if you are going to dock modules on the surface (I didn't try and dock them in space and land them, they were too big). I used nearly identical modules, but the clampotrons were like .001m off and that was enough to keep the modules from docking.

If your modules have RCS you can use that to push things around and potentially fix small gaps like that.

 

[warpus]

You got guys off of Eve? Hat's off to you!

Aww crap, nah. Eve is on my "do not even attempt this" list, which is why I didn't even mention it in my list. I haven't even landed guys on Eve, just cause I like getting them home after landing somewhere.

I might just have to attempt a return trip from Eve one day. I have no idea how the guys that pull it off get those massive landers in orbit around Kerbin in the first place though....

 

[hobbsyoyo]

If your modules have RCS you can use that to push things around and potentially fix small gaps like that.

I think I tried that but it's been so long that I can't remember. Either way, it was cool to have 2 giant bases there (and a couple of rovers) but it sucked not being able to physically connect them.

Aww crap, nah. Eve is on my "do not even attempt this" list, which is why I didn't even mention it in my list. I haven't even landed guys on Eve, just cause I like getting them home after landing somewhere.

I might just have to attempt a return trip from Eve one day. I have no idea how the guys that pull it off get those massive landers in orbit around Kerbin in the first place though....

lol

Hey my second lander is currently trying to aerobrake at Laythe.

I just found out it's pronounced 'Lay-th', I've been pronouncing it 'Lay-thee' like a tard.

 

[Antilogic]

What I do in this scenario is set up my maneuver, burn until intercept, and then set up a maneuver node a couple days ahead of me.. I tug at it slightly in one direction and see if the periapsis increased or decreased in value. If it decreased, I align my craft with the blue target thingy, delete the maneuver node, and burn slightly, always paying close attention to the periapsis. Once it stops decreasing, or doesn't decrease fast enough, I stop and try the same thing with another axis. It takes a bit longer, but prevents you from burning in random directions, saving you a bit of fuel.

That would spare me a lot of quicksaving and quickloading, I'll have to remember that for next time.

Hey my second lander is currently trying to aerobrake at Laythe.

I just found out it's pronounced 'Lay-th', I've been pronouncing it 'Lay-thee' like a tard.

I pronounce it kinda like this:

...but with a longer 'a' sound.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I'm in an eccentric polar orbit and trying to do a precision landing is largely guess work and requires a lot of deltaV. I find that the last tank of my cruise stage is just a tad short to do the whole de-orbit burn so I transfer fuel over from my lander as the NERVA's make much more efficient use of the fuel than my lander's Skipper, even if doing so means I have to move more mass around. After the burn I transfer whatever's left back to the lander.

When I figure out exactly the burn I need to do (I'm on attempt 15 or 16 though I've had some successful landings, I had to burn a ton of fuel during descent to avoid missing the island which left me with too little fuel to re-orbit) I'll use the RCS thrusters on the cruise stage to lift it back into orbit so it can be a polar mapping/communication satellite with a large reserve of RCS fuel and a docking port.

 

[ls612]

Aww crap, nah. Eve is on my "do not even attempt this" list, which is why I didn't even mention it in my list. I haven't even landed guys on Eve, just cause I like getting them home after landing somewhere.

I might just have to attempt a return trip from Eve one day. I have no idea how the guys that pull it off get those massive landers in orbit around Kerbin in the first place though....

You need 8 km/s to get to LEO from a mountain (it is about 1 km/s more per km below 7km up, so don't even try below there), so it is perfectly doable if you put the Kerbals on chairs and leave the command pod in orbit (I'm not going to do the full math now, but you need to lift minimum 0.5 tons to orbit, so that would mean a launch vehicle of about 40 tons with LOADS of asparagus staging, very doable). I've never actually done it but in theory it shouldn't require more weight than a large Jool mission.

Edit: Something like this (struts not included) should be able to do it (just barely though, you might want to add a couple more stages).

 

[warpus]

That would spare me a lot of quicksaving and quickloading, I'll have to remember that for next time.

It can be a *bit* frustrating, cause the maneuver nodes kind of aren't very precise as we all know, especially when you're still so far away from your target.. but if you tug at one of the pulleys slightly and mouseover the periapsis - it should show you two periapsis values - first you should see the one as it is now and the second one should be the result of your maneuver node. And if you can't see a new periapsis, that means that your tug resulted in a loss of an intercept.

You need 8 km/s to get to LEO from a mountain (it is about 1 km/s more per km below 7km up, so don't even try below there), so it is perfectly doable if you put the Kerbals on chairs and leave the command pod in orbit (I'm not going to do the full math now, but you need to lift minimum 0.5 tons to orbit, so that would mean a launch vehicle of about 40 tons with LOADS of asparagus staging, very doable). I've never actually done it but in theory it shouldn't require more weight than a large Jool mission.

I'll have to try this one of these days.. The thing is that my missions are never precise - I eye everything instead of doing any calculations. Feels more kerbal that way Plus it seems to work out well enough.

Could you do an Eve return mission with a space plane capable of reaching orbit? Would that be easier? It seems like it might, but I haven't exactly screwed around with many planes in the game yet. I sent a jet to Eve before, it took me hours, was one of my first missions to another planet - and turns out there's no oxygen there. I laughed so hard... but ended up gliding down and landing, so it was not a total loss.

 

[ls612]

It can be a *bit* frustrating, cause the maneuver nodes kind of aren't very precise as we all know, especially when you're still so far away from your target.. but if you tug at one of the pulleys slightly and mouseover the periapsis - it should show you two periapsis values - first you should see the one as it is now and the second one should be the result of your maneuver node. And if you can't see a new periapsis, that means that your tug resulted in a loss of an intercept.



I'll have to try this one of these days.. The thing is that my missions are never precise - I eye everything instead of doing any calculations. Feels more kerbal that way Plus it seems to work out well enough.

Could you do an Eve return mission with a space plane capable of reaching orbit? Would that be easier? It seems like it might, but I haven't exactly screwed around with many planes in the game yet. I sent a jet to Eve before, it took me hours, was one of my first missions to another planet - and turns out there's no oxygen there. I laughed so hard... but ended up gliding down and landing, so it was not a total loss.

As you said, no O2, no planes. The only advantage planes have are the insane Isp of jets, and you can't use those without oxygen.

Eve is a math challenge, not a flying challenge. If you just build enough and do the math correctly you can easily get on and off of it without too much pilot skill. If I were to go to eve I'd put that, an Interplanetary Space Bus, and a crew pod into orbit and push them all there with the bus. The crew would land by the lifter (which would have wheels), explore, get onto the chairs, and go into orbit on that.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

It can be a *bit* frustrating, cause the maneuver nodes kind of aren't very precise as we all know, especially when you're still so far away from your target.. but if you tug at one of the pulleys slightly and mouseover the periapsis - it should show you two periapsis values - first you should see the one as it is now and the second one should be the result of your maneuver node. And if you can't see a new periapsis, that means that your tug resulted in a loss of an intercept.

Or the displayed data for current and future periapsis are overlapping and then you can't see either.

Did you know you can set down a maneuver node and then click and hold it and drag it around and it will recalculate continually the effects of the maneuver as you move it on the orbital path. It's handy if you find it hard to click on a particular spot, you can place it somewhere else and drag it to where you need it.


But yeah, maneuver nodes can be a pain, add in the business of the Jool system and trying to plan a proper burn far out is insanely difficult. I had a lot of issues with that today.

As you said, no O2, no planes. The only advantage planes have are the insane Isp of jets, and you can't use those without oxygen.

Eve is a math challenge, not a flying challenge. If you just build enough and do the math correctly you can easily get on and off of it without too much pilot skill. If I were to go to eve I'd put that, an Interplanetary Space Bus, and a crew pod into orbit and push them all there with the bus. The crew would land by the lifter (which would have wheels), explore, get onto the chairs, and go into orbit on that.

You can fly a plane, you just can't use jet engines. It may be helpful to put a smallish, lower thrust rocket on a plane and let the lift of the wings lift you in altitude while the engine accelerates you forward. That way you aren't using the engine to fight gravity so much. I have no idea if it would work.

I have to say though I think you're overestimating the ease with which you can lift off Eve with math. Just looking at your lander, the different engines alone are going to make your calculations tricky with their complex staging and differing Isp's (if they have different Isp's). I mean, yes, you can do it and math is pretty much the only way to do it. But I don't think it's as easy as point it out to be.

Maybe I'm wrong; I'd love for you to prove me wrong for sure!

_______

I'm currently stuck in the ' orbit'. It's highly eccentric and polar, so trying to nail a narrow island is freaking hard. I've come extremely close and even put it down, but not with enough fuel to land. What I need to do (and will do next time I play) is instead of trying to change my inclination to get a landing solution, I will instead let the planet rotate under me until things line up so I only have to drop my peroapsis and not change my inclination. I have no idea why I spent so many attempts changing my inclination, it's a waste of deltaV. That's why I call it the orbit because I'm ********.

 

[ls612]

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You can fly a plane, you just can't use jet engines. It may be helpful to put a smallish, lower thrust rocket on a plane and let the lift of the wings lift you in altitude while the engine accelerates you forward. That way you aren't using the engine to fight gravity so much. I have no idea if it would work.

I have to say though I think you're overestimating the ease with which you can lift off Eve with math. Just looking at your lander, the different engines alone are going to make your calculations tricky with their complex staging and differing Isp's (if they have different Isp's). I mean, yes, you can do it and math is pretty much the only way to do it. But I don't think it's as easy as point it out to be.

Maybe I'm wrong; I'd love for you to prove me wrong for sure!

No, the atmosphere of Eve is 5x that of Kerbin, you want to get out of that as quickly as reasonable (ie, go straight up at terminal velocity). You can't start your gravity turn on Eve until something ridiculous like 30km up.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

What I am saying is use minimal thrust while you climb out with wings and a weak engine. Then when you are high up change over to something more powerful.

 

[warpus]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering with my initial question. And yeah hobbs, I often drag the maneuver node around, when I don't have an intercept. It's just not easy to do, cause you have to be zoomed in on the planet you're orbiting, not the planet you're headed to.. Otherwise one move and you've moved the maneuver node halfway around the planet. They really need to work on that and make maneuver nodes more user friendly.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yeah it's a nifty feature bur could use work.

I just saw that they improved SAS again. If you move while it is on, it will temporarily disable and reset at the new heading.

 

[ls612]

What I am saying is use minimal thrust while you climb out with wings and a weak engine. Then when you are high up change over to something more powerful.

It probably won't help the delta-V requirements, remember that lift generated is directly related to the speed you are moving laterally, and air resistance (and therefore fuel consumption) is also directly related to the speed you are moving. You could use the infiniglide bug to do it, but that would be kinda hacky and not really a legit way to get off Eve.

 

[Fr8monkey]

Update tomorrow?



CONFIRMED!!!1!

 

[Antilogic]

Looks like they are adding a tech tree, the ability to collect samples from other planets, and some more buildings to the space center.

 

[warpus]

Also new landing legs that are supposedly superior to what we've been using till now.

And as for using a plane to escape Eve, what if you put nuclear engines on that thing? With the atmosphere as thick as it is, would that work? Then you could switch to more powerful but less efficient engines higher up in the atmosphere.

 

[ls612]

Also new landing legs that are supposedly superior to what we've been using till now.

And as for using a plane to escape Eve, what if you put nuclear engines on that thing? With the atmosphere as thick as it is, would that work? Then you could switch to more powerful but less efficient engines higher up in the atmosphere.

No, that would be a bad idea. NERVAs have a very high weight (over 2 tons), and below 15 km on Eve they have an isp below 300! They don't become efficent until you are over 35-50 km, and by then they weigh too much to satisfy the TWR requirements.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Finally!

I managed to do a semi-precision landing with my 2nd lander. It wound up 27.8km from the first lander and I was also able to use the tiny bit of fuel left in the transfer stage to re-orbit it to serve as a mapping and communications satellite.

I did mess up a tad on landing, I selected the other ship as a target just to watch the distance on it and what happened is that my navball switched from showing my velocity relative to the ground to the velocity relative to the other lander on it's own. So I burnt a lot of fuel trying to 'slow down' and my velocity wasn't changing until I realized the navball screwiness. By the time I put down, I had burned off about a fifth of my fuel.

Spoiler :

I decided to go ahead and re-orbit it just to verify the entire life-cycle of the design from initial launch, to Laythe insertion, to descent and finally back up to orbit to deliver Kerbal scientists to the deep space cycler.

I had to re-load a couple launches because it was hard to figure out the precise altitude to do my gravity turn. I wound up turning around 7km (after keeping my throttle as low as possible before that point) and burning hard. When I got my apoapsis above the atmosphere, I used my RCS thrusters to continue accelerating me while I cut the engine and cruised to apoapsis. Then I had to gentle nurse the throttle and did four or five burns where I'd raise my ap, then cruise to it, raise it again, cruise to it, etc. That was the absolute most efficient way I could do it and I still wound up with an orbit with just seconds left of fuel.


There are a couple of new bugs I found in this lander that I'll have to fix:

The side tanks are too tall and make the CoM too high which leads to instability issues. It's particularly hard to land on a tilt because of the high CoM. I'll have to swap those tanks on the side for low, wide ones.

I'll have to rework the ladder system as placing the legs lower to protect the engine bell means my ladder doesn't quite reach the ground. It gets nearly there and I'm sure a Kerbal could still reach for it but I would rather be safe than sorry.

I need to strut the side tanks to each other, not just the central core. On one landing attempt at 12m/s, they wobbled and broke off.

I'm probably going to add more fuel and switch to the mainsail for increased factor of safety. I know I would have wound up with more fuel without the errors I made, but it's still too close to comfort.

Oh and the docking port I put on the cruise stage is useless; the decoupler seperates the cruise stage from the lander but doesn't detach itself from the cruise stage so the cruise stage is floating around with a decoupler and engine fairing blocking the docking port. I'll have to put the docking port on the bottom of the next launch.


If the update doesn't wipe out my save, I'm going to redesign the entire lander and launcher from scratch (using math) for absolute optimal efficiency. I was happy with how well the launcher worked but I suspect it could be made even better. The lander was also acceptable and once I send out orbital tugs to deorbit it and capture it and dock it to the station, I will feel comfortable using them with Kerbals. But I'd still like to see some deltaV improvements. I *may* investigate attaching a couple of NERVAs for use out of the atmosphere but that extra weight is going to suck hauling around.