King of the hill - open challange for all playlevels

[ABigCivFan]

I 100% agree with this statement and what I am going to try. However my economy is not growing as fast as I would like it to.

ABigCivFan - Any early/mid tips on keeping the economy going?

Honestly, I dont think Mids is worth the effort this game. The hammers should go into units, workers, settlers. Run HR for happiness, only the North East GP farm will run scientists.

Getting literature early is for the early HE. Doubling your military prod early in this game is top priority. Also allowing NE in the GP farm.

Oracle to Alphabet, use GSpy to infultrate Ragnar, and try steal Currency,COL,CS,Feudalism ASAP. This should lead to a very strong early econ.

 

[Dirk1302]

@ABigCivFan, i got the pigcity early and it was soon able to produce 1 unit/3 turns, 1 units/2turns after forge + working all the hammers. So i think putting the second GG there immed would have made sense, at least after the 5th GG comes i'll establish that situation. The early formation praets work very well against phants though, these units are hard to dislodge otherwise and they tend to roam through your empire. I tend to lean to HE in second too since we'll need naval units later. It's a bit overkill in capital after buro.

I haven't met Stalin yet but from what i've read i tend to agree with you that the game is not winnable. Maybe with some fluke sequence there's a way (Stalin not going for the net, you surviving). Maybe culture but if USun says it can't be done i'm certainly not the one to try since i've never won (or tried to win) cultural before.

Building the ship < 1900 is quite doable (and necessary) on deity but not without traderoutes and some trade i guess (well the net could help here). Surviving until Stalin wins will be something of a challenge, i think you need to be quite a strong player to do that.

I agree that Mids isn't worth it, seems there's quite a lot of stealing to be done, maybe if all goes wrong with my current try i'll try GW. Can't remember in regular games that you could steal so much with a gspy, i thought currency, monarchy and that's about it. I almost never go GW so i don't have much of a clue how much you can steal.

 

[Halt]

Honestly, I dont think Mids is worth the effort this game. QUOTE]

I agree my poorly worded statement was Early/mid-term game, did not mean Mids

I am working on a new start when I turn the corner I will post some saves.

 

[CLST]

I would like the idea of space victory where Stalin is prevented from victory by massive civic changes (mostly to Pacifism which will hurt him the most of all the civics changes).

This hinges on a Cristo build, which is a significant diversion, but more importantly...

moving adequate spies to the continent is going to be nearly impossible thanks to the strong Stalin Navy.

And then of course there's actually being able to build the ship while keeping him revolting.

It's a bleak bleak path, and it will be incredibly difficult to do.

So...

I believe that cultural victory is the most possible.

If you focus heavy on EE, and use spread culture mission on one of the cities you use to steal techs. You can focus your slider on culture/espionage in the high commerce capital, and use your GP farm to get several Great Artists (to dump back into it as settleds or bombs), and let these two be future legendaries and then EE up your third legendary.

I think that it might be able to be done. With Hermitage, and two cathedrals, and maybe Broadway and broadcast towers, you should be able to have these two cities have enough culture.

The third city is a strictly espionage affair.

This is the hardest scenario to win that I've ever seen though.

 

[ABigCivFan]

@Halt

Here is what I recommend if you start from scratch:

1. Build/chop a settle on pop 3 (work wheat, gold and copper) and settle pig city 1N2W of the pig ~ 2700C. Have that city first build worker

2. Build/chop GW in capital ~2440BC. Found hindu, then Oracle->Alphabet

3. settle Corn/wine city and use this as your stronghold. stuff plenty of Prats with shock/formation/anti-siege promotions.

4. Settle 2 cities to the north, use NorthEast city as GP farm. Settle Western fish/iron city and Ivory/corn/wine city. Mabye the clam city to the SE if your defenses holds well. Work scientists in these cities and as many cottages as you can. Also cottage in capital early.

5. Research Literature, HE in pig city and NE in gp farm

6. As mentioned bf, infiltrate Ragnar and steal Currency/COL/CS/Feudal

7. set 100% EP on Ragnar, try steal MC/Mancine/Engi/guilds/banking. res/bulb philo/edu. Try get Steel from Liberalism.

8. Run OR early, build market/grocer/bank in capital ASAP, whip them in other commerce cities. Try get Oxford in capital if you can keep up with research, if not just go full EE.

9. Try get 2 super medics to WIII+M3 for 40% healing rate. Have at least 1 medic3 ship as well.

Tech path: Agri-BW-Wheel-Mason-Myth-Hindu-priesthood-IW-literature-(stealing econ techs and bottom half techs)-Edu-chemistry-Lib->steel-Mil Science (steal Dem and communism for EE)-Steam-AL-Combustion-Computer-Mech Inf.

After steel, run Caste workshops/Theo and turn all coastal cities to prod, add drydocks. The Pig/HE city should have 4 GGs settled and should be able to produce 1 combat4 or Barrage3+C1 SOL/destroyer per turn. Our best advantage against Stalin is the better quality troops/ships we can produce, need to leverage that to the max.


Edit: Influence Stalin's civics for revolt sounds interesting. Ultimately, Stalin is too big to be defeated. He is industrious, he builds all the wonders (including Cristor), he has 5 times of our land, he can peacefully build up, cottage spam and still enjoys the deity discounts. Even we did everything perfectly up to 1500AD, his beakers,EPs will still overwhelm us (after Free speech/Emancipation) no matter what we do. It will be increasingly more difficult and costly to even steal techs from him.

 

[Halt]

For those that are lurking and have yet to try this let me provide you with my Best start yet 1120-BC eek:CAUTION) BIG Spoilers and a question; What should I take with the Oracle?

Spoiler :

1120-BC
It is 1120 BC - We have Oracle next turn (tech not selected), Ulundi is destroyed, might be able to take out Shaka as I think he has only one city left with two archers! This is a big risk; if Khan is there and he should be soon, I need the units to defend the Jungle hill. I have a GG in my capitol. The city to the North E is the GP farm will have the NE, The costal city will have the HE.

All advice and comments appreciated!

Tech AGI, BW, MAS,WH,IW,Med,Priest,Writing
Builds, Wor,War,Bar till pop 3, Wor,Axe,GW,Axe,Axe,settler,Prats, oracle

Oracle: What to choose? Without COL I could not have a religion which will kill any culture victory chances. Do I risk it for MC or Alpha?

My Empire

Ulundi sacked

 

[Jet]

Halt, what's the spoiler in your last post? Is it just the same spoiler you posted before?

 

[Jet]

I wonder if anything - even something exploitative - can be done to manipulate Stalin's naval AI in some useful way. What if, for example, you could force him to always land on the same tile? Etc.

Razing all his coastal cities, as was suggested, is sort of an example of this. Easier said than done, of course.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Halt,
I had this whole discussion about what to take from Oracle with Duckweed. I chose MC he took COL. I found it a close decision really still slightly prefer MC. We both got Hindu founded before though, without Col stands out i think you can run all kinds of fun things like OR or Theo later.

 

[Crusher1]

@ Halt,

That is an insanely strong opening. All my attempts have similar results but usually without 1 of the wonders. Sometimes you just get lucky and are able to get 4-5 cities with barb luck too. I'm guessing you have been doing some serious tech and build order tweaking to manipulate the order of things.

I'd get CoL. MC isn't as good a choice imo. Religion gets you the happiness and you will be quick to CS and a strong capital - once your research jumps up you will have more options. Galleys work fine for the coast and you don't need the extra hammers because once you found a city and place a fort on that forested hill it is very easy to hold. You also get options for Cultural Victory.

All in all I'm very curious to see how well you can do with that start. I haven't been able to hold on much past 1700, simply because my naval warfare sucks. Anyways, good luck.

 

[Halt]

Halt, what's the spoiler in your last post? Is it just the same spoiler you posted before?

The big spoiler is more the current situation with the Ragnar and Shaka. The placements of their cities and status. Not really more of a spoiler I did not want those not willing to see the map of the enemy to accidently see it.

 

[Halt]

@Halt,
I had this whole discussion about what to take from Oracle with Duckweed. I chose MC he took COL. I found it a close decision really still slightly prefer MC. We both got Hindu founded before though, without Col stands out i think you can run all kinds of fun things like OR or Theo later.

I tried to get Hindu but could not get it and the Oracle in this game not matter what I did. So went Med not Poly and the two turns made the difference.

 

[Halt]

@ Halt,
I'm guessing you have been doing some serious tech and build order tweaking to manipulate the order of things.
QUOTE]

Yup... some major manipulation

 

[ABigCivFan]

I have a 1000BC save.

Spoiler :

Have GW, Oracle in GP farm city, Founded hindu and Confu. 4 cities set up. a strong hold set up with 7 defenders. Now whipping courthouse and liberary to improve science and EP.

Also have 5 workers + 1 settler enroute. Some improvements already built. a couple reload (1 with wrong click on settler)

Feel free to give a try if interested.

 

[mzprox]

A screenshot from my current game in 1545 AD:

Spoiler :

in the center my first blitz destroyer. You can see Ravenna, the city i have built for Russian tourists .
(note: in this game i don't count reloads

 

[Halt]

About to go to sleep ... except for one silly move I have a fair chance to... Win! Looks like Mzprox is doing well too!

It is 1420AD.

I am the only one with Astronomy, Just got steel (others have this), HE city has 4 GG's, Drydock then SOL's.

Stalin was way behind on tech, starting to pick up a little bit of steam recently.

Two defense of Stalin strategies I am pondering.
One strategy I a pondering is to will send a Mid size force to Stalin park it on a Jungle/Wood Hill by the coast and see if he attacks it, if he does I can potentially keep him bottled down on his land. The other idea would be to get Stacks of SOL's and park them near his port cities.

I have Sistine Chappel and two religion can get 3rd... I will either try for Culture or Space win, need to decide soon.

Will post full report Saturday. will pictures.

 

[mzprox]

an other screen from a few years later:

Spoiler :

Visited Moscow. Many immigrants at the docks... around 90-100 units

 

[Halt]

Ah Mzprox liked my idea!

Any other ideas to keep him at bay Mzprox?

Do you think a stack of Machine Guns on a hill on Stalin land might "distract" Stalin?

 

[Halt]

1480AD Well Last night I was very tired and very optimistic. Have not played yet, but I think winning is 50/50. Key will be how will I win and when do I have to flick the switch.

Spoiler :

Of the two choices to win Culture and Space I do not see how I can win the space race. Defending + building untis seems impossible. Culture allows me to win dedicating only three cities to this task.

What I did wrong in this game:

1. Did not build enough defending units on my Jungle Hill. Lost three 70 EXP+ units I did not need to because of this bone head play.

2. City Specialization could be better, a weak part of my game. "IF" I decide on Culture, I should have not built certain buildings in some cities and instead focus on culture buildings and buidl culture.

3. Tech Path. Another weak part of my game. I could/should have savaged the enemies on my "Island" a bit. My Naval situation may not be as good as I once hoped.

4. Espionage. The downside to my strategy is I do not have the discounted tech steal ability as others do. It is cheaper for me to "tech". Need to refine this process a bit

I will probably try once more from my 1120BC save if I do not win this.

Capital
I have a Engineer, can speed build Iron Works but if I do I will have Health issues not easily corrected and I have a Mine atm not used.

Jungle Hill
Lost 3 70EXP+ guys to not enough builds.

Tech situation
At one point Stalin was incredibly backward

 

[zizzeus]

@Halt,

Thanks for the save, I have played from it and am doing quite well. I managed 3 religions (Christ, Confu, and Tao) and am now finishing off liberalism - will probably try to take steel with it and amass a navy. Nobody else has philo or edu yet. I managed shwedagon paya and angkor wat (not great wonders, but wanted another prophet and early access to civics.) I missed the GL though

EDIT: I also planted a city around the former Ulundi and spread confu to it quickly. I let Genghis take it, then later on used the great spy to catch up about 12 techs.

I have a few suggestions for you if you play it again. I don't understand your promotion choices, especially for your muskets. I went woodII and GuerII for every troop if possible (muskets+). Otherwise, WIII and then combat->specialty for the praets, or GII and then drillIV for the longbows and crossbows. This will help you hold the hill without losses. Taking pinch doesn't make any sense to me, as it doesn't help them against mounted or siege, and is no better against gunpowder than the terrain promotions. Periodically, I had to move veteran troops back to the city to let the newer guys get up to 4 promos.

I wouldn't take city garrison until you've exhausted the guerrilla line at least, probably drill as well. With drill IV you will usually take no damage from siege at all. Without it, you'll take some.

I also have no idea why you keep chopping that forest over the deer in the capital. It makes sense along the coast, but if you're gonna work that tile, keep the forest there for the extra production and health.

EDIT: I also got the AP (for production, and denial to Stalin) and the circumnavigation bonus. I had to chase down and kill a caravel for that one. I'm gonna try for space if you're going culture. Will be fun to try to raise his capital after his launch.

Thanks again for the save!