King of the hill - open challange for all playlevels

[Dirk1302]

Until 25 AD

Spoiler :

Gave it a serious try this time, MM-ing more but basically following the strat i posted earlier which resembles Snaaty's strat btw. Decided i didn't need construction so i accumulated gold waiting for GS after math. Chopped the hills before blockcity so i can attack cat stacks, your units are so strong near 1 AD that you will often have >90% odds. I followed Duckweeds idea defending the corridor near blockcity with wood III instead of chopping as i planned earlier, worked fine .But of course i took MC and not Col from oracle, i have quite a few forges up already . 1 AD, 4 turns to Col now, 6 cities up. I have enough gold to research to CS and currency, i can get fora up subsequently to cut on maintenance or build wealth. I don't think i'll die soon from this position at least i'll get to meet Stalin.

 

[Snaaty]

I gave up my try somewhat short of 1800 AD.

Spoiler :

Expanding out of your peninsula isnt going to win the game. Makes your front against Stalin only longer and the AIs on your continent arent the problem anyways.

After combustion, its impossible to hold the cities conquered from the AIs (I had Ragnar and Shaka taken out, working on Khan), but after loosing Ragnars capital to Stalin and then an ex Zulu city, with very low perspective of ever getting it back without gazillons of reloads, I aborted my try. Sorry, have no save here, quit in disgust and frustration after investing some hrs of play after 1700 AD

Only way I see to have a slight chance, is to focus on naval defences (first SoLs, later destroyers, if you upgrade strength 3-5 SoLs, costs 260 gold each, you rule the seas quite long. Circumnavigation Bonus is a must) and try to pull of a space win.

I like the idea of settling a city in the ice for Stalin btw, but in latergame, you need at least 2 cities there to steal enough techs to keep up

...

Maybe I will go back in time up to 1 AD or so and retry from there, without going on the offence (only razing Ulundi)

Here´s my save around 1 AD (400 BC) actually, it´s quite strong, with wall, oracle and soon mids. Havent taken the blocking hill, blocking city worked fine for me

 

[Halt]

Snaaty- Thank you for the save!

Spoiler :

I agree with you about not taking out the others as it appears from looking at your 1700ADish save you spent a ton on units that if you spent on blocking units and your Navy might have been more effective towards the goal of winning (win by space or culture).

I am quite amazed by the save you provided, each time I tried to grab the Pyramids Stalin grabbed it before me no later than 700BC.

I too am trying for a win, but need to restart as well (in my game I got distracted and built too many buildings not enough units ).

Early Aesthetics
I noticed in your 450BC save you are grabbing Aesthetics before COL or Monotheism for a 25% discount on building, this is a weak area of my game and I am not sure why you are doing this except for the "Wonders"?

So what is the best opening?
From what I have learned what is possible and repeatable; 2-3 cities, GW, Oracle, a religion, sacking Ulundi by 1500BC ish, units on the blocking jungle hill. However, your way gives you the ability to "give" Khan a city with religion for espionage which the jungle hill strategy prohibits. It does not seem possible to get the Pyramids and take Ulundi early, I could be wrong thoughts?

I like the GW -no barbs, GG bounus, early GSpy, culture etc... 150 hammers is 4 Axemen which would take me that many just to chase the barbs.

Again thanks for the save and many hours of fun so far!

 

[Yamps]

Very cool thread!

@Snaaty

Spoiler :

What about Culture? If the chokepoint can be held and Stalin stopped/delayed with SoLs, there's a reasonable chance imo to win by Culture before Stalin launches around 1900.

Going for Space doesn't seem viable to me, if nothing else there's no way to prevent nukes...

I'm pretty sure that somebody will crack this sooner or later, great game!

 

[mzprox]

Spoiler :

I gave it an other try from my 1360 bc save ( I think it's quite strong with GW, pyramids and a religion). I'm in 800 Ad now researching Education. This time i will build the Oxford in my capital and try to get ahead in research. I will wait with liberalism as long as i can, last time managed to get railroad with it
My final plan is an all or nothing assault on Moscow preferably after He launches his spaceship . Too bad i don't really have strong coastal cities.
In this game i put all my spying effort on the mongols and just recently let them take one of my cities and i could steal a few techs. (5-6). Ragnar is the most advanced of them, soon He will have astronomy and already got paper. From this point He will be my spies' target. I have settled my Gspy and didn't put my slider on spying at all.. maybe i should have..

this is a "heavy reload game" btw

 

[huerfanista]

I'm curious whether any of the top players have considered a strategy of simply razing all of Stalin's coastal cities? The AI doesn't seem to put many defenders in these cities (at least in the games that I play ), and with a diversionary attack on the other side of his continent, it would seem possible to do this. And there's no need for a large invasion force - just enough ship to bombard the defenses (or spies) and a few amphip attackers. Only take out the lightly defended ones first - this should have a snowball effect on his naval production and overall research. I've often wiped out an entire opposing navy this way, since the AI tends to pack all ships into a single lightly-defended port. Thoughts? (I wish I could play this game, but it doesn't live happily with my installation of BUG )

 

[Dirk1302]

@Halt,

Spoiler :

It's always a chance factor getting a wonder, in my first try Stalin built Mids 1800 bc. In my last save he built it 100 bc. I don't think Mids is worth it this game, 500 Hammers is 12 praets or several good buildings like forges. Oracle is much more important imo you can take Col or MC, you'll have enough happiness after to grow the city to ~12 which is enough. The +3 science from specs is nice but the bulk of research will come from capital anyway and it's unlikely that you'll run even one spec there. I'd rather have GW which is great for early stealing. Even this has a downside though, getting GSpy first means delaying academy in capital by 16 turns.

 

[dirtyparrot]

I'm curious whether any of the top players have considered a strategy of simply razing all of Stalin's coastal cities? The AI doesn't seem to put many defenders in these cities (at least in the games that I play ), and with a diversionary attack on the other side of his continent, it would seem possible to do this. And there's no need for a large invasion force - just enough ship to bombard the defenses (or spies) and a few amphip attackers. Only take out the lightly defended ones first - this should have a snowball effect on his naval production and overall research. I've often wiped out an entire opposing navy this way, since the AI tends to pack all ships into a single lightly-defended port. Thoughts? (I wish I could play this game, but it doesn't live happily with my installation of BUG )

That tends to be one of the achilles heels of the AI. They will often times put all their ships in one city and leave it relatively poorly defended. I wouldn't try to hold on to those cities as I don't think that you would have a chance at hanging on to them. All you want to do is cripple Stalin. So, yes I would raze as many of his coastal cities as I can, with big priority to his ship city.

 

[Duckweed]

@Halt,

Spoiler :

It's always a chance factor getting a wonder, in my first try Stalin built Mids 1800 bc. In my last save he built it 100 bc. I don't think Mids is worth it this game, 500 Hammers is 12 praets or several good buildings like forges. Oracle is much more important imo you can take Col or MC, you'll have enough happiness after to grow the city to ~12 which is enough. The +3 science from specs is nice but the bulk of research will come from capital anyway and it's unlikely that you'll run even one spec there. I'd rather have GW which is great for early stealing. Even this has a downside though, getting GSpy first means delaying academy in capital by 16 turns.

Spoiler :

Agree. I never pursue a wonder that is tend to lost in normal condition. Strategy should be developed considering a regular behavior of AIs.

By the way, the early rush of Shaka's capital by Axes is also not a normal play (prats is doable), which relied basically on luck. I would not suggest players do that.

 

[Duckweed]

(I wish I could play this game, but it doesn't live happily with my installation of BUG )

Install and uninstall BUG take minutes.

 

[zizzeus]

Agreed, this is not a game for people trying to kick a reload habit! I'm about to start my fourth(!) attempt at this game.

1) Went GW as only wonder, didn't really make too much happen in the blocking area. Stole from ragnar who took a barb city in the SE. Was able to keep up, but had no chance of winning. Restarted before Stalin landed.

2) Went GW again, and pyramids, and blocking city in the south. I developed faster this game, but after reading about the jungle/hill from Halt decided to restart and give that a shot. Active defense takes too much time anyway, and I don't consider myself a diety player yet so I don't mind the handicap.

3) Skipped GW, as I'm convinced by now that the GW is not an ideal opening if you are going to take the hill, since most of your fighting will be outside borders anyway before you sack Ulundi. I went Oracle->CoL instead, and bulbed theology for both religions. I got to lib much quicker than by stealing; my problem was that the AI stacks would approach the hill, and decide that there was no chance to win, and back off until the two other players stacks arrived. Then, with 3 players attacking at once, I would lose my veterans since even at 99% odds you will occasionally lose. I think you can deal with this by keeping some vets in the jungle behind the hill, and let the green troops absorb single stacks which then won't be scared away. I failed to sack Ulundi before construction, and wasn't able to get it after since the AI would keep huge stacks from every nationality in the city, afraid to come near my hill. Result - stalemate where I'm paying too much maintenance. Also, I should have used fewer axmen than I did because they are sitting around now costing money and never defending. I probably should have "axed" them, but that seems like a waste of hammers.

I'm going to restart, trying for Oracle and Pyramids, choking on the hill and a sack of Ulundi before cats. For anyone trying this strat, you don't need that many praets once they have WIII. I've seen a single troop gain 10 exp in a turn defending without losing much health on account of the first strikes. They're essentially guaranteed to land because of the disparity in strength.

 

[Duckweed]

This game is designed for human to lose.

Partially agree on this. Deity always war is impossible itself in normal setting. But in this game, there is chances, the designer gave you a super capital, a choking spot, a long-life span UU, and barb warriors to supply you cashes, exp and cities for early quick development.

By the way, I would be interested to join a SG game with AW open in normal setting, but Emperor/Immortal level.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Duckweed,

Spoiler :

I agree, the save i posted is my third try and i'm going to proceed from there. But i didn't do anything fancy which i would never have done otherwise. First try i tried to hold on the 3 jungles with axes/praets, without attacking Ulundi. No idea then if that would work but i wasn't very happy with the result it's difficult to play that way. Second i just tried a king of the hill strat building the blockcity and see how things went. Third try i did the same but improved significantly by roading more, taking out some barbs cities really early so they are producing earlier (this is key i think, don't wait, we're organized and every city contributes). Without really planning for it i got the pigcity so early that hindu founded there, that was more a piece of luck really. This city with it's 4 plain hills (and forge) has almost the same hammer output as the capital now really helping with the unit production.

General Question, i have 2 production sites both spitting 1 unit/2 turns and 4 GG's, how would you divide the GG's? I think i'll put the 4th in capital for level 3 units since formation helps so much against Ghenghis, also against the phants everybody seems to have. The next one must go to the second site for sure i think to get shock.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Partially agree on this. Deity always war is impossible itself in normal setting. But in this game, there is chances, the designer gave you a super capital, a choking spot, a long-life span UU, and barb warriors to supply you cashes, exp and cities for early quick development.

By the way, I would be interested to join a SG game with AW open in normal setting, but Emperor/Immortal level.

They also give a Deity Stalin a continent bigger than ours, and we get no coal. I am relunctant to even think about competing with Stalin since for every ship we produce he can prob produce 10. You will need godly luck (e.g. winning every naval battle, stealing every tech you need to steal on time) to have a slim chance.

A modest strategy I have for post 1500AD is focusing on a large navy, but purely for defensive purpose. Have highly promoted ships patrol both coasts and sink as many as Stalin's troop carriers. Retreat them to heal after each battle and preserve your naval strength. It is ok to let some Stalin's ship through since it is impossible to stop all of them. Your strong land troops should be able to handle them.

Holding the south is relatively easy since we are capable of out-teching the other 3 civs on our conti.

The key is to stay current on naval techs, we do have oil. It is ok to face tanks with entrenched infantry for a while, but it is not ok to face destroyers with SOLs for a long time. If you can protect the empire relatively well, and assume you have a superb economy due to careful planning, you can try nab the Internet and build the ship.

 

[Halt]

GG's

I think GG's should be split early between you Production Costal city and you Capital. I place my first in my capital and second in the costal. That way I can have a promotion on my early Navl units to give them a slight advantage. The next GG I would place in the "Future Heroic Epic City" or on a WoodsIII unit as a super medic (yes it is dangerous choose an axeman rather than a Praet and never upgarde). I would try to get one city to 11 and that should be your Heroic Epic city. I almost want that to be the costal city for the flexibility of Naval and land units. Also it is closer by two turns than the capital to the front line early on as well.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Duckweed, the choke spot is difficult to hold. But indeed it's there, i think i'll need to capture it before 1000 AD, otherwise it'll probably be too difficult to keep holding the others at bay.

AW is indeed interesting. Immortal is difficult for sure as you can see in the Gods of war game where Snaaty,Obsolete and Auron are a team taking on team ais. If you open a SG AW game i'd be willing to join.

 

[Halt]

If you can protect the empire relatively well, and assume you have a superb economy due to careful planning, you can try nab the Internet and build the ship.

I 100% agree with this statement and what I am going to try. However my economy is not growing as fast as I would like it to.

ABigCivFan - Any early/mid tips on keeping the economy going?

 

[Dirk1302]

@Halt,

I see in the save i already placed the 4th GG in capital, i'm actually not sure that's best but i'll get a 5th soon anyway i think.With Buro my capital will be close to 1 unit/turn so HE will not directly benefit there, it will though with the more expensive units later. So maybe it should go to second site, not sure yet. I have a pretty good medic, axe wood III medic I. That one has won quite a bit of easy fights in the forests.

 

[ABigCivFan]

@Duckweed,

Spoiler :

I agree, the save i posted is my third try and i'm going to proceed from there. But i didn't do anything fancy which i would never have done otherwise. First try i tried to hold on the 3 jungles with axes/praets, without attacking Ulundi. No idea then if that would work but i wasn't very happy with the result it's difficult to play that way. Second i just tried a king of the hill strat building the blockcity and see how things went. Third try i did the same but improved significantly by roading more, taking out some barbs cities really early so they are producing earlier (this is key i think, don't wait, we're organized and every city contributes). Without really planning for it i got the pigcity so early that hindu founded there, that was more a piece of luck really. This city with it's 4 plain hills (and forge) has almost the same hammer output as the capital now really helping with the unit production.

General Question, i have 2 production sites both spitting 1 unit/2 turns and 4 GG's, how would you divide the GG's? I think i'll put the 4th in capital for level 3 units since formation helps so much against Ghenghis, also against the phants everybody seems to have. The next one must go to the second site for sure i think to get shock.

I would suggest to settle 1 GG in each city early to get 2 proms. Then settle new GGs in capital until you get to 3 proms. Then settle the new GGs in 2nd city to get to 3 proms. The 2nd city is coastal, so you do want it be able to produce high quality troops.

With GW, you could get like 20 GGs ~1800AD, there is enough potential to get both the capital and 2nd city to prod 4 promotion troops when running Theo (i.e. 6 settled GGs in capital, and 4 settled GGs in 2nd coastal city with dry dock).

Edit:

@Dirk, I am now convinced that you should put the HE in your 2nd coastal city. And this city should be placed 1N2W of the pig and build this city ASAP. It has enough food to work cottages on all floods and all hills for hammers. With HE/Drydock, it can produce the best ship every turn. After Levee, your capital will be a monster, you can put IW there (although we have no coal) but you should still be able to chur out 1 land unit every turn).

This is the first time I even consider a medic3 ship. Stalin has absolute numeric superiority, so we need all our ships working overtime, and the best way to allow this is a medic3 ship.

 

[Halt]

3) Skipped GW, as I'm convinced by now that the GW is not an ideal opening if you are going to take the hill, since most of your fighting will be outside borders anyway before you sack Ulundi. .

Agreed- I think the taking Ulundi is really valuable combined with the GW if you grab the jungle hill. I had a fort on it with at most 6 Praet's and 5 Axeman before knights and maceman. It was in my borders as I had a blocking city one north. I would also place spies in the area of the chokepoint to help with detection.

I do not think the Jungle Hill (with or without the GW) strategy without taking Ulundi is optimal; No fort, increased unit supply costs. Also having a passage for your Naval ships in the middle of the continent is nice too.

I also think Snaaty's early strategy works well with GW.