King of the hill - open challange for all playlevels

[Dirk1302]

@Duckweed, indeed a praet has nothing on a C1 axe. But the ais tend to go with swords/Ha's themselves. While you can match this with axes/spears Praets give more flexibilty. Also Praets will be hard on the enemies cats.

 

[Duckweed]

You are right. Prat give more flexibility. What I care more is the free CI promotion, which is so important for an offensive defense.

 

[Bleys]

Emperor level player, through 500 BC:

Spoiler :

I settled in place, then did some metagaming. I knew this was a 300 Spartans kind of thing, so I assumed I would be set for Copper and Iron, and maybe even Horses (lots of holes in suspicious forested patches).

I teched Ag, then right to BW, Wheel, IW. As I explored my area, I noticed a few excellent city sites, but I wasnt so sure settling cities was a good idea. In the end, I only made a single Settler, and he settled on the Elephants to the South. The Barbs were so fast, they had already built cities on 2 spots I had my eye on.

The Barbs did build a couple cities, and they only had Warriors in them, so a couple Axes at each was free money. I did not keep either the first time around, the AIs were already showing up in waves. I stopped a wave of Chariots from GK and Archers from Shaka, but they can build Swords, Impis and Keshiks by now, so I am prepping for the worst.

Here are some photos, from 600 BC, I already have 3 GGs I think, 2 settled in my cap, and one on a Medic Spearman. I probably should have used a Warrior, but its too late. I also made a big blunder during this first part, and that was skipping Masonry until very late, because Walls could have reduced my casualties by a ton.

Spoiler :

600 AD was the only save I had in that area, so I loaded it and took screenshots. Here is my land area, and the 2 barb cities I mentioned.

And here is the other half, through 1 AD:

Spoiler :

The period between 500 AD and 1 AD was basically a battle-fest. Wave after wave of the AIs keep showing up. I missed chopping an important forest, and also delayed Masonry FAR too long, and I am paying the price.

Eventually, the Bards rebuilt those cities, this time with Archers. So I sent a few Praets to take them, only 3, I couldnt spare any more. By now, the AIs have stopped going around my Elephant City and trying to get to my Cap, so that city is taking the brunt of the assault. It sucks too, its not on a hill or protected by a River on the AI side like my Capitol. Maybe this 2nd city is a bad idea too. At around 200 BC, after I had captured and kept the Tundra city to the ENE of my Cap, I had the other city, the one with Horses to the SE of my Cap, down to 1 Archer defender and a Praet poised to kill it. At first, I tried to keep the city, thinking if I can get the AIs to come here, it will be better because its on a hill and is coastal (protected on one side by ocean). That didnt work out too well. I couldnt defend both cities with my current army, and lost both the Barb Horse city and the Elephant city. So I reloaded and went back to the Praet poised to capture, and razed the city instead, sending those 3 Praets over to help my at the Elephant city.

Toward the end of this set, the AIs started showing up with Cats. Its a real bummer I cant get those Horses. I would love to be able to build some HAs to flank Cats, and some Chariots to handle AI Axemen. I am currently half-way through Construction, but I dont think it matters. I doubt I will build many. I do have 3 cities, and I think I can hold out a bit longer, but I wont ever be able to mount a counter unless I can get some more cities online. Heres a few pics from 1 AD:

Spoiler :

My empire:

The city taking the brunt of the assault. Note that forest I never got chopped, Shaka had my workers hiding in that city early.

Still a couple great city spots in this Tundra.

I did have a few other save and re-loads, mostly stuff that I forgot because I am so used to BUG. I also did manage to raze 1 Shaka city, heh, but he has already rebuilt it and its popped borders already. I hope I can last another 500 years, but the late Walls have hurt me. Actually, the whole concept of a 2nd city is costing me a lot. If I replay it, I may just send a settler to that Horse spot, and settle on that hill with a pile of Archers, get Walls much earlier, and let the AIs charge up the Hill. I dont think I ever lost a unit in my Cap, but then GK was attacking with Chariots, and Shaka with Archers and Impi, across a river, and my Cap is on a Plains hill.

Oh, and one other thing, I wouldnt waste a single promotion on CR. I have a bunch of CR I Praets for the Barbs, but I wish they had CII instead (everything gets CI out of the chute by me).

 

[Snaaty]

List in first post updated. First prince player managed to get to the emperor checkpoint. Congrats

 

[dirtyparrot]

I'm an Prince player who has just moved up to Monarch (and easily beat my 1st game on that difficulty). I see what Snatty means about Russia, LOL (the storm before the storm). Anyway, I got my faced stomped on in 620 AD. I would be very interested how Snatty managed to get to such a dominant position in the game.

Some tips:

Spoiler :

-Walls are crucial (The enemy is going to build Cats and that will take away any cultural defense a city will have).
-I would also suggest settling on hills for extra defense
-If the goal is to survive as long as possible, I might suggest having your capital as the first line of defense and building your other cities further north (there are some good spots along the coast). That will allow you to not worry about barbs and focus all your troops in one spot and leave the other cities minimally guarded.
-Chop as much as possible as soon as possible.
-Although I didn't try this, I think that if you built your cities on a hill, that archers can be very powerful and cheap (especially when combined with settled GG's).
-A major problem is once you start to turtle, your economy will tank (I have no idea how to overcome this problem

Onto my game:

Spoiler :

I settled in place. My build order was worker-warrior-warrior-settler. My tech path was agriculture>BW>Wheel>AH>Pottery>Masonary>Mysticism. I eventually built walls in all my cities. Settled my first city 2W1N of the pigs and my 3rd on the elephants.

The barbs were a bit annoying, but eventually have very little effect. The real problem of course is the wave after wave of enemy stacks and how to keep your empire running while fighting war. I ended up having to sacrifice old warriors simply to survive "my next payment."

Looking back, praets, archers, and spears are probably the best defense. You'll be facing Keshiks, sword, axes, spears, and archers at first. And then eventually elephants, cats, and crossbows. Shaka actually didn't contribute much to the assault.

Below are some pictues:

Khan's 1st stack (800 BC)

Ragnar's 1st stack (675 BC)

Khan''s 2nd stack (250 AD)

Khan's 3rd stack (350 AD)

Ragnar's 2nd stack (375 AD)

Ragnar's 3rd stack (500 AD)

Ragnar's stack defeated!!! (620 AD)

Dead at last (620 AD)

Check out Stalin's position (and he's been the one building all the wonders)

 

[Bleys]

Well, I am done. I made the Monarch checkpoint, but I dont think I can hold on for the Emp one. If I replay it, I am sure I can, and I might even get to 1500 AD.

Through 475 AD, Capitol gone, down to a single, tundra city that will fall soon.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Picture says it all. My only remaining city is that Barb thing. Sigh, only made it to Monarch.

I am going to try again from the beginning, it doesnt take that long to play this. Longest part of the turns is the AI attacks, I need to turn on Quick Defense as well as Quick Attack.

I really really want a copy of this WB file Snaaty. See if you can hook me up? I am DYING to try it as Churchill of Rome, or maybe Churchill of Celtic? Those walls and Guerilla promos would be a big help. Or Churchill of Babylon? CHA and PRO on those Bowmen? Be a HUGE help against Shaka or Ragnar. I never even see Stalin in this one, I assume he is the one building all the Wonders.

Here is my list of things I will do differently next time:

Spoiler :

-No CR promos, all Combat, Shock, and Formation.

-No non-hilltop cities. In fact, I only plan 1 settler again, and instead of the Elephants (War Elephants are out of reach I think) I am going for the Horse-Corn-Plains hill in the SE, and very early.

-MUCH MUCH MUCH earlier Masonry for walls. Duh, biggest mistake I made for SURE. My 1 AD screeenshot in the other report shows my very first walls just going up. Absolutely DUH.

-Fogbusters in the Tundra. I wasted a lot of time with Barbs threatening my workers. I want to be able to chop those forests eventually into units, so keeping it open for my workers will be a big help.

-GG on a Warrior, not a Spear or Archer (I tried both). Those units get chosen as Defender too early in the battle. A Warrior will be absolutely last. Also, I am debating about settling a GG in the 2nd city. I think I will try to get the 2nd city GG before the 2nd GG in the Cap. In other words, first 3 GGs will be Medic, settle in Cap, settle in 2nd city, instead of Medic, settle next 2 in Cap.

I also want to add that I think this is a very cool project. It really showed me something about defending my territory.

 

[Sian]

Spoiler :

just ilde thinking since i can't open the file (same problem as others) ... but wouldn't it be an possebility to run your capital down next to Zulu taking control of the chokepoint, expanding backwards while keepin them at bay? ... or would it simply take to long time?

 

[budweiser]

My thoughts on Retries

Spoiler :

I suspect everything in our starting area is there for a reason.

* There are two good tundra city sites to the north, one on each coast. This implies MC for triremes else you lose the seafood too easily.

*Gold and silver are both available. Another nod to MC and research.

* Formation spears are pretty easy to get, but Elephants seem to be a good trump on enemy horse units even up to knights.

* Cats didnt help much in my games.

* Ceasar is Org so he can afford a few cities; Rome, 2 tundras and either the elephants or a SE city to claim the wooded hills or both.

* You have to have a strong economy to keep teching or its over. At a certain point, your military will be strong enough via promos to defeat the SODs. The key is unit economy, dont lose units foolishly.

* Impi are easily countered, Keshiks are countered with spears. Bersrkers will be hard to handle and will come before 1000AD. I would want X-Bows against the enemy, not L-Bows.

 

[dirtyparrot]

@ Sian

Spoiler :

Not only would it take too long, The enemy stacks would be reaching you far sooner. I got destroyed by Ragnar and Khan with Shaka doing very little. The AI already has all those bonus techs

 

[Jamuka]

*big spoiler*, 500 BC

Spoiler :

Some early exploration led me to a chokepoint on a hill directly north of the zulu capital. So i immediately set out on the first order of business: deal with the zulu.

Sent some axemen early to pillage their sh*t. Somehow they still get iron, i dont know where. Ulundi falls easily to praets, and i raze the city.

Got my turtle city up and running.

State of affairs at 500 bc. I'm pretty sure i can just camp a few praets on that hill, and i will be safe until macemen show up.

 

[Earthling]

Absolutely horribly frustrating. Could definitely do better (probably win) on a second shot but there's no fun in that now that I know where everything is at the start. Basically I think my exact same build with one extra turn would have it... oh well.

Dead in 560AD. At least it was quicker than my BOTM 16 game. Call me whatever level player you want
I'll have pics up later, here's the summary:

Spoiler :

Was doing fine at the start, killed a couple of Shaka's axe stacks, and thought I could make a go of it. But then I had absolutely horrible luck/timing with a couple of things. My third city to the south of Rome got picked off by a barb warrior after fighting Shaka, it was just founded and pop one but slowed me down a little. But by far what did me in was this: I was going for Oracle > Feudalism and lost Oracle by one turn. Russia of course was sick; I'm wondering if they just had the resources or were given just like free great engineers. I really should have just quit at that point/restarted because I then had to research IW and even though I got praets up I had nowhere close to enough cities/production to do anything with them; stacks overwhelmed my second city and Rome eventually.

Edit: Oh, and one question, was war weariness just off completely? Impossible to check a lot of the settings for me too.

 

[trafficlight]

Edit: Oh, and one question, was war weariness just off completely? Impossible to check a lot of the settings for me too.

I don't think it's off but I believe that war weariness is 50% less when the Always War option is on.

 

[ABigCivFan]

My 2 cents based on the starting location and game settings.

For those who are not familiar with this kind of game settings, I would suggest focusing on early defense first, i.e. Archers.

there are several aggressive neighbours who will DOW you upon first contact. And expect waives of comtemporary units hitting your cities, pillaging and attacking.

So after building 2 workers, you will absolutely need to get some archers out ASAP even before any new settler/workers, have them fortified in capital and do not move them. I would settle cities on hills, possilby get 1-2 screen cities to take the hit so your capital can focus on units/beakers uninterrupted. Whip walls in all cities ASAP. Stuffing 5-6 archers in the front cities is necessary.

While setting up archer based defense, tech toward IW for Prats. They can handle strong attackers and siege, even counter attack a bit.

Other key techs for this map will be Feudalism for LB, construction for cats to aid your defensive effort.

I would suggest to settle the 1st GG in capital to pump CG2 archers/Shock or C2 Prats, and 2nd GG on a strong Archer defender with CG3+Guerrila2+Drills.

Be very careful not to be complacent when you beat off a few early waves of attacks, because they will be more and more potent and massive, so you will need to always find ways to inprove your defensive positions. Make sure you know where the attacks will come from and stuff defenders early for the 25% fortify bonus. Last minute shuffling the defenders will lose this huge bonus. Good luck!

 

[Crusher1]

I'm going to play this when I get off work. I tend to look at this type of challenge a lot differently than ABC. I'm thinking of a worker, barracks (until 3 pop), worker or a worker, warrior, worker TGW opening and adjust from there after I scout the Map. The GSpy will be very useful.

 

[Jamuka]

1000 AD, lots of spoilers

Spoiler :

Continued the game i described above. The choke point worked like a charm. No ancient unit can touch a stack of praets fortified on a hill. You need like 10ish praets and cats cant hurt you either. In 750 ad or so, ragnar came with berzerkers which seemed to have a >70% survival rate attacking praets. I didnt play it out, but i knew i had lost because i didnt get LBs. From this i figured out a few things:

*You basically have a window from the time you set up your choke point until praets become obsolete (ragnar gets macemen). You *need* to accomplish a few things, listed below, in this time frame. You'll have from about 750 BC to 750 AD.
-get longbows
-get economic techs. the soon you get beurocracy and literature the better.
-develop your economy. Beurocracy capital filled with cottages seems to be the only way to go.
-settle most of your land. Most of the cities will have to just build wealth for time being, as you need all the tech rate you can get.
-get confuscianism if possible.

*Your first GG needs to be a medic, and let it sit in the choke point city.
*I recomend attaching the next few GG to praets, and give them as many combat promotions as possible.
*The idea is sit praets on that hill and then spend as little time as possible building units. Once praets are obselete, you will need to devote most of you're time to building defensive units. Until then though, you can build minimal praets and spend your time on your economy. Attaching GG's helps with this too.
*Its important you dont tech hunting as long as possible, so you can build warriors for city garisons.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Jamuka

Spoiler :

I think that you've got the best strategy out of all of us (we don't know what Snatty did so we'll have to exclude him for now). I'm a bit conflicted between whether it would be wise to settle a GG, so that we can have either promoted longbows. But, I think that your strategy is what a lot of us were missing: a way to focus all our defense in one city and be able to skimp on troops for the other cities (from looking at the map, that city would be both a land and naval chokepoint). This also allows us to settle some relatively good land. I had probably made 2 faulty assumptions: 1) that Shaka was too far to rush and 2) that Shaka would settle that land relatively quickly. Maybe I'll give it another try using your strategy.

 

[Jamuka]

@dirtyparrot

Spoiler :

Settling a GG's in a few cities before longbow is probly a good idea, especially seeing how much of a pain it would be to tech theocracy. 5 xp longbows make a huge difference. But GG praets with combat 6 do too, and you'll probly need them to skimp on military enough. I suppose vassalage is another option - but i wouldnt want to give up beurocracy.

 

[Noobilator]

Spoiler :

How convenient, a choke point on a hill, with a city it blockades naval forces as well (king of the hill?). And Shaka, the closest AI to the choke point was also the weakest of all the AIs (from all the screenshots Shaka had the lowest score). I didn't try this one out but it seems interesting.

 

[Snaaty]

Interesting strategy jamuka picked. Might be damn successfull when you get LBs in time when going down that route

For those curious that have read jamukas spoiler:
I didnt go down that route, played a more conservative style, putting a blocking city on a hill next to my capital first, taking most of the AIs stacks on, then settling and expandig slowly, with short periods of expansion wars when I felt strong enough and had spare units. Also worked quite well, but jamuka´s appraoch might even be better...

Just dont put a city into direction of the AI that isnt on a hill. That is guarantied to kill you fast(er).

EDIT:
@ Noobilator - thanks for the spoiler

EDIT2:
Scorlist in first post updated

 

[Crusher1]

blah! I'll wait to play when I get home, lol. I'm almost Excited, lol.