King of the World #20: Pericles

[Neal]

Round 0: Rhye's, Exciting and New!
Round 1: A Quick Strike! (Turns 50-56)
Round 2: Huts and Wonders (Turns 56-94)
Round 3: Oh, THOSE Barbarians... (Turns 94-147)
Round 4: Come Sail Away! (Turn 147-710 A.D.)

Hello again! The King of the World series seeks to gain new insight into real world history and Civilization IV strategy by marrying the two via Earth maps. This game, the 20th in the series, is something of a departure in that we won't be playing a normal, 4000 B.C. start. No, we're venturing into total conversion mod territory with Rhye's and Fall of Civilizations. I'm completely new to this, so it'll be a little more interactive than most of my more recent games, which have honestly kind of ventured into "demo" territory. We have a new map, new parameters, and the prospect of new empires popping up in "conquered" territory is a scary one. So let's get started! We'll be playing (at least at first) as Pericles, Athenian general and statesman:

Greece's Unique Building and Unique Unit remain the same, but Pericles' Leader Traits have been condensed down into a simple Great People Boost that'll last through the end of the Middle Ages.

What we lack in Leader Traits, though, we more than make up for in free stuff to start the game. We begin in 1600 B.C. with more than I think we could reasonably hope to accumulate in that time period:

That's... a lot of Techs. If you'd told me that I'd start out with Metal Casting in hand by 1600 B.C. without using the Oracle, I'd say yes, please. But I imagine that the upcoming empires (like, ulp, Rome) will start out with even more.

So here we stand. Do we start out researching Priesthood for the Oracle or Machinery for some super-early Crossbow craziness? Where do we send our Settlers? Athens, in place, or maybe go 1NW to settle on a hill? How about the one on the Galley? Take the safe route and hit up Crete, or maybe set up an early bastion in Turkey? Or North Africa? Or, hell, Italy? Speaking of, do we expand toward Rome and try to box them in, or away from them and cede western Europe? I have more questions than answers this time around, so I turn to you.

If you don't feel like sitting through the initial setup, here's the save:

 

[dalamb]

Are you allowed to open up the map in the worldbuilder, on the theory that "everybody" knows the details of the conventional Earth maps? If not, are you allowed at least to look up who your opponents are? or is it the same as regular Earth18 or 34 or whatever?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Are you allowed to...

turn on the resource bubbles?

 

[psychodation]

subbed
still hate rhye´s shade of blue and the whole visual thing.
but can´t wait to be shown how this rhye´s and fall thing works.
and how neal gets along with it. neal, you seem to be lost, like i am everytime i try this mod.

ok. i´m hooked on this.

 

[strijder20]

Super early x-bowcrazyness? Sounds fun! I already did it with Rome (Yes, they have Praetorians...) once to ward of barb axes. But what are you going to use them for? For beating Egypt? Rome? Persia?
And are you going for the UHV?

 

[Civman33]

Settle 1NW to claim the sheep early on. Colonize Turkey to reap the full benefits of your start.

 

[Neal]

Sorry. Here's a look at the resource bubbles:

 

[GGracchus]

Are you allowed to open up the map in the worldbuilder, on the theory that "everybody" knows the details of the conventional Earth maps? If not, are you allowed at least to look up who your opponents are? or is it the same as regular Earth18 or 34 or whatever?

The map is slightly different, and civilizations spawn at the time they came into existence historically(America in 1775 AD, Rome in approximately 753 BC, etc.).

Neal, I think your game isn't fully patched. In the latest one there are dynamic names, and IIRC Greece doesn't start with MC.

 

[Bigv32]

can someone remind me the UHV for Greece in this scenerio?

Also, Neal I read a story in the forums here where the guy made a settler and set it south on a ship to South Africa. The city there was never attacked by the AI (except for barbs). It became a wonder building mega city. I can't find the thread, but if you peak in the worldbuilder, I believe the spot was near where the zulu are placed by most people.

 

[GGracchus]

They are: First to circumnavigate the globe, Complete parthenon, oracle, colossus, and ToA by 250 BC, and be the first to discover Drama, Philosophy, and Literature.

 

[GA econ FTW]

I am very familiar with the standard Earth map and the Earth 1000 scenario, so if Rhys throws a TON of differences into play, I understand if my suggestions are foolish....but based on what Strijder20 says (and based on the map and history mechanics) you are going to face Persia and Rome early....if Rhys hasn't fixed the AI's inability to do amphibious invasions, you won't have to fear Egypt much. So my suggestion is that I agree on settling on the hill to access the sheep (settling on the marble to get a quicker access to wonderbuild goo might be useful, but the city won't grow as fast, losing the great person spam leverage)...and then, I would hit Rome before Persia. Persia is going to spam immortals, and you already have the answer to that in pocket. Strijdger says Rome already has Praetorians, so I agree, get crossbows and head that direction. Also, you have proven in your other conquests that Europe is chock-full of the best places to build cities (and again, if the AI still can't handle amphib well, you are guaranteed another Musket-spamming base later in the United Kingdom/Ireland) I would just guess that regardless, an early possession of Europe would be superior to an early possession of the Hills of Turkey and the plains/flood plains of Persia....but if small, production cities spamming units sounds more savory than larger, wonderbuilding/vanity project/great person farms of Paris, Rome and London....then persia might be a good target...(Rome in 1000AD tends to be a very versatile city for production OR culture/GP growth though...)

Even though I understand the value of settling 1 NW (get on a hill, get closer to future targets (because the best defense is the best offense) and of course, leverage the sheep, I would put that the sheep will still be 2 tiles (and a peak) away from your settled capital. Until a worker can take advantage, etc...you might have to deal with an invasion called by rome or persia by the time a worker gets out there. So, possibly another risk, settle 1SW on the marble. Since settling on anything non-food bonused results in enough food to grow, you get the marble resource immediately, a hammer and can exploit the much-needed 2 gold and 2 food from the fish as you tech towards crossbows, and more likely that one work boat could be protected by your "fleet" more than the pasture could, and more likely if you are going to leverage gold in Athens plus leverage your philosophical trait, odds are you are going to build a lighthouse early anyway.

Even considering that, if the plan is to come out of the gate early with a beeline to crossbows, in the meantime building units to keep strength up enough to dissuade persia and Rome, settle in place or settling 1NW as the original idea both have advantages (in place to gain 1 turn of production, 1NW to get the defense plus the two seafood resources, which I would expect will be developed before the sheep) . I am unsure if monarchy is part of the original plan. But if it was, also settling 1N on the wine might be in order for the expected future.

However, already having one (two?) galleys, you also definitely have a quick way to amphib assault that goody hut on a risk...or maybe even attempt a cheap-quick rush at Cairo. Even so, fail on that risk, and I think the game would become...difficult.

Based on how you (successfully) war, Neal, I bet even with the Rhys mod, monarch level is going to be a cakewalk, especially if you play it safe...

 

[skymastergamerp]

Hey Neal long time lurker first time I am posting on you're KOW thread just to see I really enjoyed these gameplays of yours on Earth and nice to see you taking a dive with Rhye's and fall of civilization. Looking at the starting position I think settling 1 NW will actually mean settling on top of an invisable iron? (can't remember haven't played in a while) but either way you might wanna go for Oracle ASAP since that wonder usually gets grabbed by Indian AI (unless you aren't going for UHV).

 

[GGracchus]

My own advice Neal: Watch your stability. You can't conquer everything in this game, your stability will crash and you'll collapse.

Are you going for the UHV or something else?

 

[coanda]

First call is whether you want to try for UHV. If so, you're under severe time pressure. ToA, Colossus, and Oracle are all going to be going before too long. And China and India are both going to be trying to get Taoism off Philosophy, so you have to make a real effort to get that as quickly as possible. Offhand, I'd think...
Masonry -> Priesthood -> Aesthetics -> Drama -> Philosophy -> Literature -> Machinery -> Optics.
work boat -> work boat -> worker -> settler -> ToA -> Colossus -> Parthenon, while city 2 goes worker -> Oracle or just Oracle. Then it's just a matter of building a few caravels, sending them off, and waiting for them to circumnavigate the globe. If you manage the part up to 250 BC, you should have no problem winning the game.

If you ignore the UHV, your start is a bit more flexible. Basically, it's really hard to oppose a rising civilization if you already have cities in their borders. So I recommend settling cities where you know no other civ is going to rise, then conquering civs 5-10 turns after they show up on the map and filling in their land. But that requires knowing when and where they spawn.

The RFC wiki unfortunately seems dysfunctional.
http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Rhye's_and_Fall_of_Civilization_atlas
is where I used to check. Maybe someone knows of an alternate source for that map.

 

[Bigv32]

They are: First to circumnavigate the globe, Complete parthenon, oracle, colossus, and ToA by 250 BC, and be the first to discover Drama, Philosophy, and Literature.

Thank you. I don't think the tech goal will be difficult. In my (limited) experience with RFC, the AI techs slowly at first, so since you are an early civ, you should be okay. I think the hardest of all of them is the globe one as I believe it requires a slight detour on the tech route.

 

[The Oz-Man]

Can you regular Rhye's players explain what a UHV is to those of us who have never played the mod? I assume it's some kind of goal set for each Civ?

 

[Coffee Mug]

Can you regular Rhye's players explain what a UHV is to those of us who have never played the mod? I assume it's some kind of goal set for each Civ?

Exactly. A unique historical victory. Each civ has three of them, which, if completely successfully, will win the game. You get a golden age when you complete two of them.

They range from interesting, to arbitrary, to stupid and anachronistic. The Greeks have some of the better ones.

 

[Archredbeard]

Maan this is exiting stuff, all brand new and.....stuff

My vote for settling goes for the hill, for long time benefit. I vote machinery and take out Rome early on, to get a real foothold in Europe. However, I have never tried this mod, so im in the pitchblack regarding sound advices, therefore I will sink back into the shadows and do my while lurking.

Really looking forward to this one, just to put a wee pressure on, hehe

 

[coanda]

Maan this is exiting stuff, all brand new and.....stuff

My vote for settling goes for the hill, for long time benefit. I vote machinery and take out Rome early on, to get a real foothold in Europe. However, I have never tried this mod, so im in the pitchblack regarding sound advices, therefore I will sink back into the shadows and do my while lurking.

Really looking forward to this one, just to put a wee pressure on, hehe

My general advice for expansion in RFC:
1. Don't take cities where another civ is going to emerge, if you can avoid it. Otherwise, you might just have to give those cities away eventually anyways (or get thrown into an unnecessarily bloody and prolonged war).
2. Don't try to attack a newly emerging civ until at least a dozen or so turns after they show up. That way you don't need to worry about respawning defenders, or defecting units, or any of the other lovely ways emerging civs get an edge in wars of independence.
3. Don't expand much while under significant time pressure from your UHV.
4. Don't take more than a couple cities at a time. Slow, steady expansion is the way to go - take a few cities, rebuild, take a few more cities. That lets you keep your infrastructure and economy strong, which can help fight off the negative stability effects of your expansion.

 

[pigswill]

I'm sure there's iron in the northwest hill.

General principle is you lower stability expanding outside your historical area which for Greece is basically the south balkans. A city built in another civ's spawning area automatically flips to that civ (along with all units). Rome spawns 750bc iirc, Germany spawns about 700ad, Turkey spawns about 1200ad.

If you're going for a historical victory (complete all 3 UHVs) then you don't need to expand much anyway, you can do but its not essential. If you are going for historical victory then you have to stick pretty much to fulfilling the first two UHVs asap which seriously reduces your flexibility.

Its generally better, cerrtainly in the early game to have several small cities than a couple of large cities. You get stability bonusses for a happy population (happy faces- unhappy faces). You're also less affected by plague by having a big health bonus. Unlike vanilla you can build cities within 2 tiles of each other iirc.

I should qualify this by saying I am a long way from being an expert on the mod.