Knights

[oyzar]

However gunships are still unable to flank cannons and earlier...

 

[oyzar]

Check this game out.http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298806 In it I am using just Trebs,LB,Pikes and x-bows to take cities. At the point of the last post, I had taken 4 cities defended by LB's,x-bows and maces with the loss of just ONE treb. One unit to take 4 cities is a pretty good hammer investment. I purposefully waited until the AI had units from the same era so that I was demonstrating the power of siege rather than the power of a tech advantage. If I had used cats to soften up the LB's I am quite sure I would have sustained much higher losses. Trebs are significantly stronger than cats when attacking a city. They also bombard defenses at a much faster rate. I now have a stack of about 10+ CR3 trebs. I do not forsee losing many of them until the AI has muskets.
Cats are better in the open field and should get the barrage promotion (which was argued to death in another thread).

To get back on topic. I very rarely build knights for the offensive. As a dedicated seige unit warmonger, it really doesn't matter what unit I use to attack a city with after the siege assaults. The defenders are all redlined at15% strength. As stack defenders they are greatly overpriced. If you are concerned about x-bows, then bring some of your own. Personally a few cover x-bows are just fine for stack defense. Even if facing another cover x-bow on flat ground they have even odds. And most importantly your precious, and IMHO highly overrated, CR melee units will not be selected as the defender. The 2 moves are wasted due to the slow speeds of the units required to protect them.
I do however build them for defensive purposes. I keep a stack of them in the homeland as well as a couple small stacks of cats. When the SOD is next to a city, i attack it with the cats to weaken the spears/pikes and them the flanking2 knights. It wipes out most of the siege then I gleefully watch the AI suicide and an entire SOD onto the pikes and LB's.
The last reason I go light on the mounted units is the limited upgrade path. Once the AI has rifling, you're hosed. You are stuck paying maintanance on your mounted units until advanced flight.
One of the few gripes I have about civ is the minmal army vs army fighting in the open field. Medievil wars were not usually fought as sieges. Great armies would meet and wars were determined on the battle field where knights were unmatched. When a city was attacked, it wasn't the titled guys in expensive armor that attacked the walls. It was masses of poor shmucks that couldn't afford horses.

Trebs are good if your opponents sit holed up in cities sure.. My opponents tends to not do that though given that i hardly play SP...

 

[Cashew]

Cashew, are you nuts?

Sorry, couldn't resist

No one ever can. You're like the 50th person to have ever made that joke.

Beat me to it.

See?

I've seen that strategy he lists before...

Where have I seen that before.......hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Oh well .

It's a really common strat for prolonged teamers.

 

[Phatkarp]

Several people have mentioned knights as stack defenders. This puzzles me. They don't get defensive bonuses. In my experience they are pretty vulnerable to counterattack if left alone, and in a stack they usually aren't chosen to defend.

Now as an empire defender I think they are useful. Having a small stack to sit in the middle of your empire and quickly counterattack and put out fires is nice.

I admit that I don't use knights too much, so I'm not basing my thoughts on a lot of experience.

 

[UWHabs]

Several people have mentioned knights as stack defenders. This puzzles me. They don't get defensive bonuses. In my experience they are pretty vulnerable to counterattack if left alone, and in a stack they usually aren't chosen to defend.

Now as an empire defender I think they are useful. Having a small stack to sit in the middle of your empire and quickly counterattack and put out fires is nice.

I admit that I don't use knights too much, so I'm not basing my thoughts on a lot of experience.

I admit that I don't have a ton of

If you get them pre-gunpowder, they're great for stack defense. Their only counters early on are pikes and elephants. So, keep along a crossbowman/maceman and a pike of your own, and nobody will challenge your stack. Even if you don't get tile defense, their base strength is so high at that point that they beat every unit of the area except those explicitly listed with a "vs mounted" bonus.

 

[PieceOfMind]

If you get them pre-gunpowder, they're great for stack defense. Their only counters early on are pikes and elephants. So, keep along a crossbowman/maceman and a pike of your own, and nobody will challenge your stack. Even if you don't get tile defense, their base strength is so high at that point that they beat every unit of the area except those explicitly listed with a "vs mounted" bonus.

Precisely.

And sometimes on the way to a city you have to run on flat ground for a tile or two, or even siege the city from a flat tile. In those cases the only defense modifier you could get is the fortify bonus so it's no big loss really. On hills and forests your stacks will not usually be attacked if they are composed of appropriate units.

 

[mice]

Knights require iron. So do pikes. So wars in this era are very map dependent.

If you see a rival with no iron you can own him in the medieval era. Don't wait for those later units. Also you can plan a sneaky hit on their only iron source, which may involve spies or some gung-ho volunteers.

Then grab XP for the knights for killer cav later.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Or pillage his iron or take it out with a spy, or bribe another AI to stop trading it to him.

 

[Decrepus]

I just started playing but I find that Knights are THE GREATEST.

This game was a source of absolute frustration for a inept warmonger like me unil I found knights. I wanted to rush but could find no copper or horses which would immediately make the game a junker. Having to tech all the way to knights gives me more time to locate those resources while I focus on building my towns.

I usualy build about a dozen and go rampaging through the countryside capturing towns. The speed that I capture and amount that I seize demolishes my economy and the enemy quickly spits out a ton of defenders. This is problematic for me since I don't bring siege equipment.

That narrow timeframe of domination is where I build my advantage for the rest of the game.

 

[Supr49er]

You definitely need lots of siege units in your balanced SOD (Stack of Doom).

Have you studied at the War Academy?

This will improve your warmongering immensely.

Welcome to the Forums Decrepus.

 

[Tephros]

Several people have mentioned knights as stack defenders. This puzzles me. They don't get defensive bonuses. In my experience they are pretty vulnerable to counterattack if left alone, and in a stack they usually aren't chosen to defend.

Now as an empire defender I think they are useful. Having a small stack to sit in the middle of your empire and quickly counterattack and put out fires is nice.

I admit that I don't use knights too much, so I'm not basing my thoughts on a lot of experience.

It depends on the map. In forests knights are not the best, but even on hills their base strength will make them better against most attackers, especially since they often have an extra promo over other units being mounted due to stables. They really shine when your stack is forced to go through the open where nobody gets any defensive bonuses anyway.

Also think of crossbows. There is no other medieval unit that can handle crossbow attackers like knights. The AI does indeed attack with archery units for some reason sometimes.

What sucks about knights is that their predecessor is a totally different unit. Horse archers are for hit-and-run attacks. Knights are definitely not for that, lol.

 

[Diamondeye]

A recent example: You are Greece, war-fixed Pericles, early rushed Augustus, your first neighboor, and now you have Monty as your next neighboor. You know he'll come for you because he's Hindu founder and you are part of the confu block - You have xbows on him and utilize them to keep his enormeous stacks at bay.

Now, Monty techs Machinery and starts using xbows along with his Jags, swords and spears. What unit are you going to rely on to save your behind? I'd say... Knights.

(I quit that game later when Incans DoWed aswell and my ally was attacked by Ragnar , but Monty didn't get a chance. He held one of my cities for like 3 turns, then the tide turned and I began taking his cities...)

 

[CivCorpse]

A recent example: You are Greece, war-fixed Pericles, early rushed Augustus, your first neighboor, and now you have Monty as your next neighboor. You know he'll come for you because he's Hindu founder and you are part of the confu block - You have xbows on him and utilize them to keep his enormeous stacks at bay.

Now, Monty techs Machinery and starts using xbows along with his Jags, swords and spears. What unit are you going to rely on to save your behind? I'd say... Knights.

(I quit that game later when Incans DoWed aswell and my ally was attacked by Ragnar , but Monty didn't get a chance. He held one of my cities for like 3 turns, then the tide turned and I began taking his cities...)

Siege baby siege, it's all about the collateral. Slap the stack with one or two cats then attack with cover x-bows.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The alternative to collateral and siege is a 2 move unit + spies. On slow game speeds you can probably afford the necessary city revolts while using knights...especially if you pick the opponent you're going to target with them in advance and focus on that civ.

I prefer cuirassers to knights of course because the withdraw chance and 2 higher base str gives them above 50% odds when attacking virtually anything pre-cuirasser (muskets with good CG could be trouble but usually not).

I've gone games without producing a single catapult and easily winning domination or conquest, although if you're using a more standard army siege becomes crucial.

 

[mirthadir]

A recent example: You are Greece, war-fixed Pericles, early rushed Augustus, your first neighboor, and now you have Monty as your next neighboor. You know he'll come for you because he's Hindu founder and you are part of the confu block - You have xbows on him and utilize them to keep his enormeous stacks at bay.

Now, Monty techs Machinery and starts using xbows along with his Jags, swords and spears. What unit are you going to rely on to save your behind? I'd say... Knights.


I'd say HAs. If he doesn't have maces I can just flank his Xbows with cheap HAs until the siege is dead. After which he is more than welcome to run his Xbows against my Xbows (with CG, fortified, behind cultural barriers) any time he likes. His jags, of course, are just free XP for my Xbows.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

A recent example: You are Greece, war-fixed Pericles, early rushed Augustus, your first neighboor, and now you have Monty as your next neighboor. You know he'll come for you because he's Hindu founder and you are part of the confu block - You have xbows on him and utilize them to keep his enormeous stacks at bay.

Now, Monty techs Machinery and starts using xbows along with his Jags, swords and spears. What unit are you going to rely on to save your behind? I'd say... Knights.


I'd say HAs. If he doesn't have maces I can just flank his Xbows with cheap HAs until the siege is dead. After which he is more than welcome to run his Xbows against my Xbows (with CG, fortified, behind cultural barriers) any time he likes. His jags, of course, are just free XP for my Xbows.

If you flank a stack in such a way plain ole CG archers own the crap out of a lot of that too, and it's not like monty has low attack courage...

If they're not heavy on the spears though HAs will just shred that theoretical stack outright and forget about it. Throw in cats (which are easier to access than xbows actually), and it's an utter joke to crush even a somewhat sizeable stack. Maces are a little hard on HAs though (although since the AI is terrible with promos you might be able to do it with shock guys).

 

[Phatkarp]

I stand corrected on the defensive use of knights. I guess "fast move/no defense bonus" got me locked into thinking "crappy defender". I will definitely start using them for stack defense on flatlands from here on out.

 

[CivCorpse]

The alternative to collateral and siege is a 2 move unit + spies. On slow game speeds you can probably afford the necessary city revolts while using knights...especially if you pick the opponent you're going to target with them in advance and focus on that civ.

I prefer cuirassers to knights of course because the withdraw chance and 2 higher base str gives them above 50% odds when attacking virtually anything pre-cuirasser (muskets with good CG could be trouble but usually not).

I've gone games without producing a single catapult and easily winning domination or conquest, although if you're using a more standard army siege becomes crucial.

The problem with spies is the uncertainty. They usually have a 2/3 chance of a successful revolt. Then they go all the way back to the capital. I like siege, but I think you know that. I know it takes longer. but i just don't like the idea of a stack of mounted units getting shipped away by pikes since a counter unit cannot keep up.

 

[morchuflex]

Knights are powerful, but the way I play (beelining to Education) I research Guilds way too late to make them worthwhile.

A solution I found to extend their lifespan was to edit XML files and make Knights available with Feudalism. And to avoid this change making a beeline to Feudalism too powerful, I gave Feudalism the cost of the Guilds tech, and conversely. I am currently testing the effects of these changes.