[NFP] Kublai Khan Discussion Thread

[AntSou]

Isn't it same with Chinese Kublai?

No, because trading posts establish automatically when playing Mongolia.

 

[8housesofelixir]

My impression is the intent is to have flexible civ that is a middle ground for both Mongolia and China.

Just watched Saxygamer's video and he brought up a good point... how is Mongolia Kublai better than China Kublai again? It isn't like Mongolia Kublia is bringing extra domination power over Mongolia ability. ..

Also, the Mongol CUA, when standalone, is a fairly generic bonus. Unlike many other warmonger's ability, the extra combat bonus from diplo visibility is also useful in a peaceful game, for instance in an Alliance.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

That's good to hear. Although, I am curious as to why white Kublai leads China and yellow Kublai leads Mongolia. @Uberfrog brought up a good point, but I would like to hear from you.

Short answer: white (corresponding with metal), not yellow, was the imperial color of the Yuan dynasty. "Gold = Emperor" is often correct, and is probably always a good choice (like wearing black for a night out), but to be specific to Yuan, the color should be white.

Jingyi Gao writes:
"According to an epigraphy 1244-YL, the de facto official colour of Mongolian Empire was white. 《中書令耶律公神道碑》蓋國俗尚白 以白為吉故也"

Gao, Jingyi. 2012. "Official Colours of Chinese Regimes" in Trames: Journal of the humanities and social sciences 16(3):237-285.

Marco Polo writes: “It is the custom that on this occasion the Kaan and all his subjects should be clothed entirely in white; so, that day, everybody is in white, men and women, great and small. And this is done in order that they may thrive all through the year, for they deem that white clothing is lucky.” (Book 2:15)

Of course, KK also wore yellow. Marco Polo also, at a religious festival, records KK in a cloth of gold (Book 2:11).

But here, reflecting the Yuan Dynasty, KK should be in white.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

No, because trading posts establish automatically when playing Mongolia.

Huh, but China gets more out of eureka and inspirations...
It is same Trade off

 

[anonxanemone]

Short answer: white (corresponding with metal), not yellow, was the imperial color of the Yuan dynasty. "Gold = Emperor" is often correct, and is probably always a good choice (like wearing black for a night out), but to be specific to Yuan, the color should be white.

Jingyi Gao writes:
"According to an epigraphy 1244-YL, the de facto official colour of Mongolian Empire was white. 《中書令耶律公神道碑》蓋國俗尚白 以白為吉故也"

Gao, Jingyi. 2012. "Official Colours of Chinese Regimes" in Trames: Journal of the humanities and social sciences 16(3):237-285.

Marco Polo writes: “It is the custom that on this occasion the Kaan and all his subjects should be clothed entirely in white; so, that day, everybody is in white, men and women, great and small. And this is done in order that they may thrive all through the year, for they deem that white clothing is lucky.” (Book 2:15)

Of course, KK also wore yellow. Marco Polo also, at a religious festival, records KK in a cloth of gold (Book 2:11).

But here, reflecting the Yuan Dynasty, KK should be in white.

Interesting. This reminds me of the nickname for Joseon which was 백의민족 (pronounced baek'uiminjok, meaning "citizens of white clothes"). Does this culture stem from Kublai Khan's Yuan?

 

[AntSou]

Huh, but China gets more out of eureka and inspirations...
It is same Trade off

Not really. Getting 40% on eurekas you need is more important than 50% on ones you don't need.

 

[Zaarin]

Had the civs backward, but called it on switching between white and gold. Very pleased to see him wearing the iconic white of the Yuan Dynasty for China, though I still wish he had a more Mongol hairstyle.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Interesting. This reminds me of the nickname for Joseon which was 백의민족 (pronounced baek'uiminjok, meaning "citizens of white clothes"). Does this culture stem from Kublai Khan's Yuan?

It's possible. Taejo, founder of Joseon, was descended from Yuan court officials. But we can't also ignore the use of white in shamanism from Mongolia to Korea to Shinto. I just simply don't know enough about Korean history to answer this without reading a whole lot. And I have to go back to work, writing stuff for you lot to read!

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Had the civs backward, but called it on switching between white and gold. Very pleased to see him wearing the iconic white of the Yuan Dynasty for China, though I still wish he had a more Mongol hairstyle.

He does have a braid, so fewer grievances than I used to have. But yeah, a good nod to history.

 

[8housesofelixir]

To quote a joke from Chinese civ community's (there are many serious players there) commentary on Kublai LUA:


Broke: Chinese Kublai can't compete with Qin in Cultural Victory, and Mongol Kublai can't compete with Genghis in Domination Victory.
Woke: Mongol Kublai can beat Qin in Domination Victory, and Chinese Kublai can beat Genghis in Cultural Victory.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Not really. Getting 40% on eurekas you need is more important than 50% on ones you don't need.

I agree with that, and you can see my general complaints above; but I do think that the TR eureka was a pretty clever way to make one simple ability work with both civs as is.

 

[agonistes]

Must be the new products he's been using in the new Monoplies & Corporations Mode

We better not get a Kardasian as an alt leader for the US.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Not really. Getting 40% on eurekas you need is more important than 50% on ones you don't need.

I don’t know. I don’t think it is that big of a deal. It would be if it unlocks tech and inspirations automatically like Babylon but it isn't the case here. Not to mention it isn't guaranteed that you will get what you want. So Mongol Kublai is only 5% better than Chinese Kublai. .. and it is based on chance.

 

[TreVor_ish]

We better not get a Kardasian as an alt leader for the US.

Why would You even mention this plastic cursed name.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Edit: Another approach would be to make it trigger with every new trade route. So each trade route level would trigger it once. (deleting and rebuilding a trade route would have no effect). This would encourage the player to focus on expanding the amount of trade routes they have.

Personally I would like to see Kublai's toolbox gear towards trade routes more. When he cannot get new Eurekas and Inspirations - which are already in a limited number anyway - more trade routes can help him build up gold.

For instance, give him a half price CH (like Japan's HS and Poland's Encampment), or every Encampment can give a trade route capacity.

 

[bengalryan9]

I only now noticed this comment. THAT would be fun, since it would be an entirely unique mechanic. I would have no qualms with the ability as it stands atm if it did this.

Would be fun, too, and allow you to customize things to your own play style. You could say to yourself "ok, I play on deity and I always have a tough time getting an early wonder built so I want this to pop the inspiration for Drama" or "I have no niter within reach, I'll need this to pop the eureka for gunpowder". Would give you a lot of flexibility IMO.

 

[MrRadar]

As FXS highlighted a certain element of the UI in their FL video, I'll jump to the occasion to air a particular grievance of mine:


It implies the number of turns remaining to the end of the traderoute or to the length of the traderoute, when you just start it, but it is neither. In fact it is just useless shortest distance to the destination regardless of all geography and actual route taken.

 

[leandrombraz]

Just watched Saxygamer's video and he brought up a good point... how is Mongolia Kublai better than China Kublai again? It isn't like Mongolia Kublia is bringing extra domination power over Mongolia ability. ..

Mongolia can make better use of Kublai's ability. You can control when you want to trigger the eureka/inspiration, which gives you a better chance of getting boosts that you actually need. Mongolia is also better equipped to actually get a trading post in every Civ, at least in a huge map, which isn't always possible as other Civs, depending on the map. Furthermore, Qin's ability is a bigger loss than Genghis', so you have a worse China as Kublai than Mongolia as him.

 

[The Highwayman]

@MrRadar I want to like your post for a second time.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Was the stream confirmed for tomorrow?