Kuriotates Strategies

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Yea, the more I play the Kurio, the more I like them. I was initially pretty skeptical on the 3-cities-to-support-a-whole-civ thing but its really working out.

Next game I think I'm going to just focus on archery and the mage line. Get death, meta and mind nodes minimum and aim for at least 4x 3death 3mind 3meta liches plus 4x 3mind 3meta 3(something) archmages. All of my best units in this current game are stolen so meh, why waste time building my own centaurs?

Just to recap some tips:

Generally God King will work fine for most of the game just because you only have your initial cities and they're close together.

If you go with FoL, you should probably beeline guilds to make the best use of your massive population. (You can get 40ish population in your main cities pretty easily)

If you go with RoK or AV, on the other hand, priests can build temples that provide bonuses for each settlement (gold and research, respectively).

The Nexus and GotN is pretty important since it lets you fortify your settlements quickly.

Liberty works very well because it gives your settlements free specialists. You still need to go through and manually set them to specialists though.

Liberty also works well with Guilds to allow a lot of flexibility in your settlements.

The civic that allows unlimited bards (I forget, is that liberty?) is good for conquering since captured large cities can assign all of their population as bards to rapidly expand your influence.

 

[heisenberg]

Hehe glad you liked them... I must admit I too had serious doubts about the whole city cap thing on early on, but it has been pretty fun with them lately.

As they say, a picture speaks a thousand words, so I've uploaded a couple of pics to make my point for FoL in the Kurio SP game I'm currently on--friend of mine decided to go OO on the Kurio on our MP game so here's my reply

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This is as early as turn 140, aka the bronze age time... I was already hitting my happiness cap of 15 pre-GoN, and I timed the research just nice to free myself from the cap:

Spoiler :

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This is after switching to GoN

Spoiler :

Following Order might net you an uncapped happiness eventually, but thats waaaaay down the line when you finally get to religious law for social order, or theology for unyielding order. You'd never come close to hitting the happiness cap of GoN anytime too soon. (did I mention the lovely food+hammer ancient forest tiles? no longer are you worried about plain-full starts, coz plain ancients give 2 food too!)
Its still very early in the game so barely half of my forests have turned ancient.
And yes I wouldn't need those farms anymore--with FoL you could simply cottage+bloom everything up for a nice mix of food, hammer, and gold. Now to start chopping some trees down for more cottages
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Regarding Centuars, I seriously still think they have their own niche.
Kurios are an early bloomer, and I would believe that they should leverage that to their maximum potential.
Centuars are really nice because they do not need horses, so when you even decide to start researching animal husbandry you know you can head on for horseback for centuars, unlike a generic race (sans the Hippus) where you tech animal husbandry just for those pastures/animal capturing and then you happen to *find* horses hidden in your culture then decide to build horsemen. Not to mention they are unique in being able to gain defensive bonuses, making them an awesome all-round fast unit at the start.

Take for example the very same game I'm on now:

Spoiler :

A very typical situation on a standard erebus mapscript.
It doesn't exactly show my whole visible map but it shows the main stuff.
I'm bordered in on the East by a mountain chain, South and West by the ocean, limited in the north by the Clan (it really is inhabitable jungle up north which was why I didn't get to settling there unlike the clan)
The bit of land directly to my west is simply too hilly and without fresh water for me to plant a second city down, unless I wanted a coastal city (which would be severely crippled in terms of production, and with the advent of airships there is no longer the necessity)

So...... whats the next step? Only one really logical move left--destroy the clan, and take their capital as my second city. (Their capital is on nice grassland to my north-east if you look on the mini-map)
With the productive prowess of the Kurio with FoL (as you could see in previous screenies), it is pretty easy to out-produce the Clan in units at this era.

This is really more of advocating a very aggressive early game actually, just that centuars happen to be a very strong Kurio unit at this age.
Especially in this particular start of mine, there isn't any copper near me, making my axemen as strong as my centuars--except that my centuars have much better mobility.
Actually, in 0.34 I've found that Charismatic is another very strong first trait change if you decide to war early. The extra happy doesn't really count for much when you have a 39 happiness cap , but loads of promos sure do. Aggressive is nice too, but with the 0.34 massive barbaric hordes of XP goodness, charismatic lets you get your flanking sacrificial centuars their promos really easily.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Actually, in 0.34 I've found that Charismatic is another very strong first trait change if you decide to war early. The extra happy doesn't really count for much when you have a 39 happiness cap , but loads of promos sure do. Aggressive is nice too, but with the 0.34 massive barbaric hordes of XP goodness, charismatic lets you get your flanking sacrificial centuars their promos really easily.

I just tried it myself... I think Charismatic should be one of the last ones you use though instead of one of the first. The reason being that Charismatic affects all your units immediately by lowering their exp requirement so if you've hit a plateau with your units you can switch to charismatic and your highly promoted main attack force suddenly gets 2-3 new promos. This also helps because it mitigates some possibly poor choices made in the early stages of the game (ie you gave everyone woodsman II but it turns out everywhere else you're fighting doesn't have trees).

Gonna start a new game soon I think... my pick is probably Philosophical -> Arcane -> Financial -> Charismatic

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Since we're on about starts, I've found myself drawn the Kurios. Initially, I was put off by Adaptive, but now I quite like it. As for the 3 city limit, I usually find myself (with normal civs) not having a particularly large empire, so having 3 super-cities instead of 5 or 6 average cities seems a fair trade, and is easier on the micromanagement front. It's also nice to know I can throw up a settlement in heavy tundra just to get some fur and deer resources without wasting (much) Maintenance (never realised the # of cities Maint. Still applies).

Anyway, on about starts. The thing I’ve been trying to do is beeline AC and Myst and then throw up an Elder Council and Sage to try and grow an early great Sage. I keep pacifism and of course, grab God King and keep my unit numbers low (I find my Scouts always have bad luck, so it’s not hard to keep that cap low). During that time I usually build a Settler and have picked up a peaceful spot to lay up my 2nd city.

The trouble I have is, what to do after that? I never really feel sure of myself on what to do. I usually have a nearby neighbour, so beeline to Horseback and mass-producing Centaurs under Aggressive is very tempting to take a 3rd city off my neighbour, but then I wonder, should I work up the economic lines (Mining, Calendar ,Festivals, etc.) and hold a peaceful early game?

Anyway, I just wanted to know, am I being too “trying to do everything” by using an AC > Myst > Sage + Pacifist and then switching over to aggressive and Centaurs (if I can get Education in that time, it’s Shock 1 Centaurs off the bat)? Is 100 turns a bit too late to switch Aggressive and go on a real raid to pick off my neighbour’s capital, or is it still viable? I find sometimes it works out but I lose so many Centaurs that I have a very thinly spread army, which takes a while to recover from. Also, from that point on I don’t know whether to continue an aggressive front (make a big conventional army, farm barbs, etc.), go a bit economic with financial and try and get a good set of enclaves up, go religious and possibly spiritual (I really like OO Cultists if there’s enough Water about) or try the aforementioned KotE and Arcane and set-up a horde of lazy Adepts to turn into monsters later in the game.

Yeah, just my blabbering about the 1st 300 turns or so. If it helps, I try to play Standard Maps, Fractal with 12ish Civs or so.

 

[lordrune]

I've got a question - I played around with the 'worked tile' in one of my settlements, changing it from the default selected production tile to a commerce tile - and I didn't see my research beakers go up in the civ.

Just so I understand this fully: does this mean that the only thing a settlement can produce of any kind is culture? And all other kinds of commerce, like the hammers, are just thrown out?

Or did I misread something on the interface?

 

[heisenberg]

@lordrune:

Settlements cannot produce any production.
Settlements do not produce any food/hammer/commerce from worked tiles. i.e. it will not grow past 1 pop either, and captured cities turned into settlements will shrink.
Settlements do not pay any maintenance, however your mega-cites suffer a bit from having to pay on "number of cities" maintenance.
Settlements do provide culture, either through specialists, or religions.
Using a priest to build temples in settlements (especially for RoK or AV) adds commerce/beaker boosts.
Settlements can turn their 1 pop into specialists. (though you might have to do it manually, and might need either the temple, or correct civics to do so) Liberty can also add an additional specialist in all your settlements (and unlimited bards)

So... in a hypothetical situation where you are AV, use a priest to pop a temple in your settlement, then turn your pop into a scientist, while running liberty for a free second specialist, that settlement should produce--2 beakers from temple, 3 beakers from sage specialist, 1 beaker 4 culture from bard specialist, 1 culture from religion, and potentially 1 additional beaker if you have the shrine. Overall that should produce a neat nice profit from your settlement covering the slight additional maintenance costs in your other cities. Multiply that by the number of settlements you have in your empire, it can add up to quite a decent portion of your overall economy.


@Micky Onimusha

Personally, I do the same thing usually regarding heading for Myst for elders/pagan temples.
Since you're Philo you might as well leverage that trait early for at least 2 GPs together with pacifism.
I'll usually "try" to pop an early sage (though sometimes i get the "wrong" type) for an early Academy--really powerful for the entire game since you're limited in city numbers. Then maybe a prophet if I wanted to bulb a religion for the holy city.

As for what to do after that, its really situational and depending on your play-style.
For me, I'd try to grab that second (or third) city off my nearby neighbour early on. The earlier you get your cities up and running (and capitals usually have nice tiles in their BFC), the faster you grow economically too.
And yes, personally I usually head for horseback and start producing centuars early on. Changing to Aggressive at ~turn 95 would give you a nice headstart on your centuars. And I usually grab education soon after, to start cottaging, and for Apprenticeship for possibly free shock I centuars, or flanking if you need it. Usually that is also when I swap out of pacifism because I start having to pay additional for my army size.

Attacking with centuars around turn 100 is still pretty viable--at least on emperor/immortal, haven't really got down to doing diety
Usually most civs do not have Bronze working then, and hitting strength 3 warriors with strength 4 shock I centuars gives pretty decent odds.
Farm up some barbs early on though if you can, but this early on you shouldn't have to need to use flanking centuars over pure combat/shock ones.
As for losing a number of centuars during the war, it always happens.
But after all if you net a good second (or third) city spot its time you went into a somewhat builder phase to get your cities up and running.

As for what to do after in the 2nd trait change it really is situational again, depending on what religion you went for too for example.
Financial is never a poor choice by then when you have a large amount of cottages up.
Religion-wise I'm still a huge fan of FoL (you can see my screenies in my previous post for reason), but AV and RoK are nice choices too if I wanted to spam settlements.
And should I have gone FoL I usually wouldn't even tech into mining early since I do not have a need to build mines when ancient forests provide almost as good hammers but loads of food too. (unless of course there's gold in my working radius)
I'm not such a huge fan of OO, not because they are weak, but just that the above named religions have so much additional to offer.
Not to mention that with airships you should never ever have to build a coastal city, because the water tiles simply provide way too little overall bonuses compared to land tiles.

Well that was just my take on the first 300ish turns. Different players might have different preferences, and its still after all dependent on your positioning on the map.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

@Micky

Yea, I've been doing advanced start lately just to skip past the early boring stuff. Buy a city, ancient chants, 1 worker and 2 scouts and a granary. Start building a warrior. Build another warrior or building until I'm at least 3 pop, then build a settler.

Although I can see how Heisenberg's plan would work, I tend to not favor early attacks because the odds are very much not in your favor and all that time churning out units to throw at defenders I could be investing in a building to ramp me up faster.

My plan is Philo till 96, get 2 sages for my first 2 cities while researching the usual basic techs like animal husbandry, mining, festivals, plantations, etc...

Then go Arcane and make sure that I can hit CotE a minimum of a good 30 turns or so before 196. Build a minimum of 8 adepts, more if you can afford the upkeep. Also pick up a religion sometime around here. I usually just research it, using my first 2 GP's for sages... means I don't often get the shrine, which hurts, but is still ok for the most part.

By the time of the 2nd trait change, I find I'm usually really short on money so now is a good time for financial to get over the hump.

At this point you have some choices, I usually like to do my first attack once I get fireballs with the target of getting 3mind 3meta dominating archmages. This game I'm playing now I'm going to try and get some death mana for dominating liches too, see how that goes.

So anyway, yea, I turtle and tech for the first 200 turns or so, then expand if its feasible.

PS I tried going centaurs this game... I was a little boxed in but got 2 good cities (one has the tree with the fruit). Built a small stack of centaurs by turn 90 or so... the luichirp to the north already had copper warriors defending their cities, the Ljos had their rangers and the Hippus had 4 str horsemen already Settled back in to go back to my original path.

 

[heisenberg]

rangers @ turn 90?


edit: oopsies didn't see you using advanced start

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Not to mention that with airships you should never ever have to build a coastal city, because the water tiles simply provide way too little overall bonuses compared to land tiles.

Don't you find that Air ships come a little too late though? They're down the ocean tech line, which I only use on a map with water, but of course, if I'm on a map with water and I've built all my cities in-land, I won't be paying much attention to this line.... just wondering?

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Don't you find that Air ships come a little too late though? They're down the ocean tech line, which I only use on a map with water, but of course, if I'm on a map with water and I've built all my cities in-land, I won't be paying much attention to this line.... just wondering?

Mmm the airships are critical to my strategy. I play Erebus which offers plenty of barriers that Airships are great at getting around. Also, I like to use Archmages for domination and being able to hover over mountains and lakes safely while bombarding a city is a giant plus.

PS Airships can be sent via Gates

 

[popejubal]

Your commerce can grow astronomically... your production not so much (Though make sure you build the pillar of chains).

I don't understand this.

If I have unhappy people, then I'm missing out on a bunch of food, commerce and production. Sure, it would be nice to get something out of my , but I'd much rather work a tile with a content citizen then let :angry: fester in my cities in exchange for 1 puny hammer.

Why would someone build this wonder and why would you want citizens when you can work toward having instead? What am I missing?

 

[Elm]

I believe the pillar of chains gives all unhappy people +1 hammer, before happiness. So if you have a 10 pop city, you get 10 hammers, even if only 8 are happy.

This is one reason to rush for courthouses when playing the Calabim.

Of course, never build the pillar of chains/governor's manor in the same city as the tower of complacency, you loose all those free hammers.

 

[bc1]

Settlements cannot produce any production.
Settlements do not produce any food/hammer/commerce from worked tiles. i.e. it will not grow past 1 pop either, and captured cities turned into settlements will shrink.
Settlements do not pay any maintenance, however your mega-cites suffer a bit from having to pay on "number of cities" maintenance.
Settlements do provide culture, either through specialists, or religions.
Using a priest to build temples in settlements (especially for RoK or AV) adds commerce/beaker boosts.
Settlements can turn their 1 pop into specialists. (though you might have to do it manually, and might need either the temple, or correct civics to do so) Liberty can also add an additional specialist in all your settlements (and unlimited bards)

So... in a hypothetical situation where you are AV, use a priest to pop a temple in your settlement, then turn your pop into a scientist, while running liberty for a free second specialist, that settlement should produce--2 beakers from temple, 3 beakers from sage specialist, 1 beaker 4 culture from bard specialist, 1 culture from religion, and potentially 1 additional beaker if you have the shrine.

My experience in .34 is that settlements *can* produce commerce (eg when working an enclave tile), which could be linked to the fact that they do benefit from trade routes. Although their overall output is severely crippled (divided by 4 or 5), getting 5 light bulbs without using a specialist is possible.

And with regards to overall strategy, it's always the same in my book: build tons of warriors to get your cities, not settlers. Building a settler to build a settlement would be a complete waste IMHO.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

And with regards to overall strategy, it's always the same in my book: build tons of warriors to get your cities, not settlers. Building a settler to build a settlement would be a complete waste IMHO.

Meh, I dunno. Depending on your strat, you may have very low attrition in your armed forces. Add this to very high production and you can have a settler in 2 turns without breaking a sweat.

PS anyone figure out a good way to get water resources yet aside from trading for them? Only way I can see is to either cripple one city by building it on the coast or capturing a settlement with worked water resources already in its bfc.

 

[Quanfinigon]

I've started a game recently, me & a friend & 2 comps on a standard map (using .23 not .34), and I started on an island alone as Kurios, my friend is on the larger island with the comps.

What early strategies are there if I can't rush centaurs to take over a nearby civ?

 

[heisenberg]

Disclaimer: I might refer to some things that might be in the more current version of FfH so please forgive me if I do so and I'd be happy to stand corrected

If you started on a lone small island, you'd definitely need a coastal city in this case. Not to mention back then the Kurios did not have the option of having the luxury of airships.
Build one coastal city early and try to hit sailing to try to get the 3rd city on the other continent--hopefully there are still a few decent city spots left.
This is assuming that your small island is way too small for 3 large cities.

Otherwise if your continent is large and resource-rich enough, there's always the turtling option of simply building all your cities on it and leaving your rivals on the other continent on their own and start a massive builder phase--being able to somewhat focus less on military techs and go down the economical lines.
That said, you still would need at least one coastal city to produce a decent sized navy to keep your continent safe--I'd rather sink an invading stack at sea than let them unload all of them on my continent.


@fuzzie~ =D
nope, I usually forgo the water resources and trade for them, or be happy when I do capture a coastal city with ready made fishing ships.
After all the water resources just add 3 health, and even the lux resource whale is pretty rare.
And on maps with decent amounts of water, usually there's a huge amount of water resources anyway and by midgame you'd easily find a couple of civs willing to trade them to you.
However, theoretically, -if- you wanted them that badly (for some reason =P), you could build a coastal city, grab the resource, leave it undefended for barbs, and retake it as a settlement. Or if you intend to go to war with another civ, gift it to them, then take it before they defend it, leaving it as a settlement. Way too much trouble imo, but well, the possibility is there.

 

[bc1]

Meh, I dunno. Depending on your strat, you may have very low attrition in your armed forces. Add this to very high production and you can have a settler in 2 turns without breaking a sweat.

PS anyone figure out a good way to get water resources yet aside from trading for them? Only way I can see is to either cripple one city by building it on the coast or capturing a settlement with worked water resources already in its bfc.

Expect fairly high attrition with a warrior rush, but they cost 8 times less than settlers... And if you can waste production for settlement building IMHO that means you've already won the game (or should have).

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Expect fairly high attrition with a warrior rush, but they cost 8 times less than settlers... And if you can waste production for settlement building IMHO that means you've already won the game (or should have).

Meh, sorta. A warrior rush isn't going to get you across a body of water if you have to wait for airships. Very early in the curve, you can make it with warriors but you have to expand SOMETIME.

I play Erebus pretty often, there's always small nooks and crannies that have useful resources especially if a required copper or iron shows up there.