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Lack of Iron

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by BK*, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. Vilvatiktan

    Vilvatiktan Chieftain

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    I think the lack of specific resources in a region but abundant in others is the way of the developers to make us expand militarily or get those thru trades during the late game. So the game wouldn't be boring on later eras.
     
  2. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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    or take them! :evil:

    Yeah, scarcity is part of the game design. Forces you to adapt your game plan, makes the game more interesting. :mischief:
     
  3. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing Chieftain

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    In SP the scarcity of resources can make it more fun. I think it just feels out of place to have something be mandatory in Civ 6. Food is the most scarce resource for most of humanity and yet farms are not really very important.

    In MP it's more of a 'kill me' sign on your back.
     
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  4. Karmah

    Karmah Chieftain Supporter

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    The new ressource system (and distribution) is for me the best thing in GS. The only thing that made me plan ahead what to do once I reveal in both instances, if I will have some or not, I'm prepared, I have a plan B, one that involves delaying my strat for a more convoluted one. I love it. To the point that I look down with a patronizing attitude whenever I read a post wh..asking for a better resource distribution...(I know it's bad).
     
  5. kaspergm

    kaspergm Warlord

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    I wouldn't mind it so much if it wasn't so that you only know once it's too late.

    Pretty much it goes like this: I research Niter. Do I have any Niter in my territory? Turns out no. And now all my units are obsolete and I can't go conquer any. Jokes on me this time. :shake:
     
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  6. Hep Roc Heretic

    Hep Roc Heretic Chieftain

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    Anyone old enough to remember the gas crises of '73 and '79 can tell you the importance of strategic resources. Even more scary is the present day scarcity of rare earth metals upon which many of our electronics depend. I think it's great that Civ is finally making us think more holistically about resources. I find that I'm playing much wider than I had been playing in order to acquire them, and that brings additional challenges.
     
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  7. Karmah

    Karmah Chieftain Supporter

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    Yep Niter is a pain, even when you have some... It isn't enough. Now question is, did I put myself in a corner where I'm overly dependant.
    If I'm late on units, maybe waging offense is not the best idea. Unless I have someone friendly who can trade some. If I'm both late scientifically and the pariah of the world community... Well that's what I 'd call get yourself stuck in a corner.
    If I'm not late scientifically I can probably conquer some land where I see Niter (and possibly whose owner do not) with my current leveled up units.
     
  8. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Strategic == scarce

    Yeah, let's demand that the player spawns on a tile that has ALL the resources needed for the entire game. That would be fair! :rolleyes:
     
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  9. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    Well before launch I was complaining about resources, more specifically oil. I knew they would screw it up. Every game I play is with Abundant resources turned on. It's not ideal to play with tons of luxuries around, but Firaxis not only seems to be believers of meritless Peak Oil theory, but also think iron, coal, everything else is super rare and scarce too.

    Extremely annoying.
     
  10. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Annoying? Maybe, but some annoyance that disguises as pseudo-challenge in a game that is utterly lacking of the latter is sorely needed. Adapt your game. I just started one that had me find the ONLY source of Iron visible in and around my entire starting area right besides the annoying (REAL annoyance) Eleanor, so my choice was to settle a high risk city right there, in the face of such an annoying UA in order to secure that Iron. Take some risks, or find other solutions, or play the diplo game to secure iron sources, or or or... the only think this game lacks is true hard choices, you can always find a way out of anything and everything.
     
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  11. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    This is likely true. Tall is greatly discouraged in this version of Civ. While I was relieved when 6 came out because Civ5 was awful to play wide, I am beginning to really miss the ability to play Tall. Sometimes I just want 6 cities max. Playing under 6 almost is impossible. Forget about a one city challenge.
     
  12. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    No its not. I won an Immortal game pre-GS with FIVE cities (I added a sixth in the late game but did not have any influence in the end result) all Standard Continents. I won that one with a SV, all cities IZs feeding into a super centralized Magnus ran powerhouse with one SP, defended by one spy (SP always right beside the CC), all other spies making fireworks of the enemy SPs. It can be done, you just need to plan ahead from the very beginning.
     
  13. King Rad

    King Rad Chieftain

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    I like the new system. I had to settle an at-risk island [6 tiles, only 1 or 2 immune to sea level rise] because there was oil in the water adjacent to it and I desperately needed it. Lost most of the island to the sea, but kept the oil [nice that those platforms float!]. I actually wish they'd change the luxury resources to imitate the strategics. have cities consume an amount per turn, but not limited to one resource only satisfying four cities. Sure you can make one city happy by providing a resource another city doesn't have, but why wouldn't they like diamond and ivory even if four other cities have diamonds. That doesn't a fifth city wouldn't like them also. i think it's a great system.,
     
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  14. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    This is where I am seeing a huge disconnect in the thread.
    Yes, the entire idea is that sometimes you will be limited and that implies adaptation. Virtually everyone agrees here.
    But this means we have to ensure there are valid (read: not extremely unfun) ways around it.
    For example:
    Suppose there's only one strategic resource in the game, Firaxite. Every single unit except warriors and slingers requires Firaxite to be built. Some continents have it and some don't.
    Is this a good idea? No, certainly not; the random chance of not having it would be an automatic loss. That's not very fun.

    Now, let's go back to GS: the industrial and modern+ eras both have their version of firaxite: niter and oil. If you don't have niter in the industrial, your recourse is Pike&Shot and Field Cannons. Not great but you still have battering rams.
    If you don't have oil in the modern era, your recourse is AT crews and... field cannons. (You don't get MGs until atomic.) How's that going to work against infantry and tanks?
    You also lack artillery so you cannot actually capture urban defenses cities to get the oil you want. In a balanced game with humans or the sought after competent AI, you would find, as @kaspergm said, that the joke is on you.

    The discussion about resource distribution and the one about combat resource balance are very much tied. But even ignoring that, if you lack iron, you might still get horses. But sometimes you get neither. How likely should that be? Sometimes the map generator drops you on a desolate tundra island too, but that's pretty rare. Should it be 1% of games? 30%?
    If it's even 5% of games, then 1 in 400 players (many thousands of people) will have had their first two games of GS without any strategic resources near them early on. They will be frustrated. What about players who play Prince in such a way that the AI keeps near them in tech? They will feel hosed in any war. I myself have never had this problem yet, fortunately.

    The trade side is also not as good as it could be, especially for fuel resources. They're all over the place on prices and even availability. We all know the AI is pretty weak on trading generally. There's no "world market" where you can guarantee some access for a price. There's no access guarantee and there's no cost guarantee. You can end up in a situation with no options. Unlike starting on tundra purgatory island, you've invested 5 eras into the game already. This creates a lot of negative fun. It's not about whether this should be impossible - but how (un)likely?
    We may not even need to change the map system - even just moving discovery of oil back in the industrial so you have real time to react, for example, could be enough. (I don't actually see much issue with iron or horses. It's the resources that are the only one in their entire era of units, because you get no fallback but AC+ranged line.)
     
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  15. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    Amazing post. You were able to articulate this in the best way in regards to the gameplay aspect. At the end of the day the game isn't fun after investing in several eras and hitting a wall just because of resources.

    Who really wants to play dreadful games even 5%-10% and be tempted to reroll? I know I don't. I have very little precious time to play as it is.

    I'm not really interested in playing a real life version of the majority of the African continent. Cannot even get any useless zebras for my lack of horses. Thank God cattle isn't actually necessary for anything. Would hate to have the the equivalent of a cape Buffalo or a hippo so that I cannot compete with the rest of the world's AIs by having useless animals that cannot be beasts of burden.

    Yes pre GS a 5 city win is possible, but that is hardly tall. GS has made wide play stronger than RF did. Tall is very inefficient compared to wide. Some civs are so bad like Canada I am struggling with getting better win times with them, with less than 10 cities. Canada just needs a rework but that's off topic.

    On a separate note, I bet Inca can do a 4 city science victory. I wonder if 3 is possible too. I was very impressed with my first game playing as them. They are monsters on good maps.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2019
  16. Battlehelm043

    Battlehelm043 Chieftain

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    I think the problem most people might be having is that iron and several other resources tend to spawn in remote areas as it is right now. The kind of areas that do not support city growth.... around the polar regions. Limitation is great for the resource game; just not when they are placed in areas at the poles where city placement is completely discouraged by the surrounding landscape. They had this problem with Civ V too.
     
  17. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    That must have been at Civ5 launch. BNW was nowhere near as bad as Civ6 of any expansion, in terms of resources. Civ5 worst resource was coal. Everything else was so-so or decent. Every blue moon no oil in range. Uranium was pretty hit or miss, but hey by then, if you were not warmongering, who cared for it. The game might have been nearly over by then if doing a fast science victory.
     
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  18. kaspergm

    kaspergm Warlord

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    You always hit the nail with your posts and analysis. I agree completely, alternatives is a crucial point here.

    The idea of a world market is really intriguing. Or let us buy strategic resources off city states without being their suzerain, if the trade AI is not improved.
     
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  19. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    The issue with the Renaissance and Industrial Eras is that way too many units need niter. It’s too much of a bottle neck. It also feels silly, because we all know Niter is a fudge - it’s not a real strategic resource because you can make it fairly easily. We have to have Niter for gameplay reasons - but let’s keep it to a minimum. Niter really should only be required for Muskets and Heavy Cav. Everyone else should use some other resource (eg Iron for Frigates) or no resource.

    Modern Era is a bit funny because of some unit gaps in the Industrial Era and the small number of units in the Modern Era itself. I really think the issue is that FXS should have split resources required to build a unit and maintenance. You should always be able to build Infantry - ie no upfront resource cost - but you should need oil to maintain them. So, if you’re short of oil, you can still have Infantry but they are weaker. (Infantry becomes their own “default” unit.) Tanks should require Iron to build (steel) and then oil to maintain. There would then be a clearer distinction between Melee and HC.

    I think there is also maybe an argument for having late game buldings that can give you a tiny bit of oil and iron, to help mitigate some of the issues around lack of resources (so, you’ll still have to trade for resources etc., but it’s not so stark). Maybe Factories could produce one oil and one iron with a policy card or oil / iron per turn if they run a particular project (a bit like how logistics gives you power). Something like that.

    It’s a good post @Sostratus. But I actually think FXS alread have the balance right subject to a bit of tweaking.

    Part of the fun of Civ is serendipity. I think sometimes people are pushing for things for the sake of balance or flexibility or consistency that, if implemented, would really just undermine what little serendipity there is. Yeah, sometimes you get to the Modern Era and you have no Oil and it feels ... all for naught. But there’s fun and challenge in that too. I think you’d lose that if you can just go “oh well. Guess I’ll spam “Default No Resource” Unit. Maybe you get Oil some other way. Maybe you have to suddenly lean into the diplomatic game. Maybe you just get smashed, and next time you play you keep in mind that “no Oil” scenario - you maybe Warmonger less at the start, or settle more out of the way Cities or have more allies, because you know you can’t rely on finding Oil later.

    Isn’t that a good thing? It’s a reason to settle that sort of territory and or settle cities late game. It also rewards colonial expansion earlier in the game - more chance you’re on a continent that has resources you’ll need in tha future.

    That actually sounds kinda cool. I mean, isn’t that the point of a Civ like Mali? No resources. No production. So, you get all the gold and buy what you need?

    (People keep asking for an Economic Victory and I just don’t get it. The game already has one - play Mali (Or Spain, or England etc) and buy your way to Victory.)

    By the way, don’t the Balanced Start and Legendary Start mechanics already solve this problem? Don’t they basically guarantee there will be key resources near your cities?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  20. alancsilver

    alancsilver Chieftain

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    One of my issues with having a lack of resources is trying to find them on the map. I don't see an easy way to see those resources. If leader X has iron, where is it located. Even if I have visibility in his empire, it s somewhat hard to spot. And if I want to take out the iron city, I'm really trying to determine where the hell it is located...
     
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