Lack of Later Era Units??

Well, it's still entirely possible that the trapper cap-icon unit at rifling is the riflemen, or is it? Was there a video where someone got that tooltip or advanced that far?
Weird icon though.
And would be weird if rifling only unlocked an advanced scout.

Wait, or is it actually a rifle uh lock? The icon, that is.
 
No, the gap between them is too large from a gameplay perspective. I outlined an excellent fix to the problem earlier.

The excellent fix is already in-game - industrial units from other branches, like cavalry or cannons.

As for the historical perspective, it's been better argued that the placing is woefully inadequate. Boris Gudenuf's argument still stands. No one has come up with a decent rebuttal.

You mean this:

I agree that this would be the best of a really bad historical/gaming bargain, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to settle for it.

He admitted for the given number of units, the approach is the best.
 
The excellent fix is already in-game - industrial units from other branches, like cavalry or cannons.

That's hardly an excellent fix. It's more of a band aid.

He admitted for the given number of units, the approach is the best.

The best of a bad situation isn't truly best. Frankly, Firaxis could easily quick fix this, even without disrupting the gameplay balance, by redesigning the look of the "Musketman" to better reflect the eras it's present in. It's not the optimal solution (Having the infantry line upgrade every 1.5 eras is.), but it'll certainly look less ridiculous than what they have right now.
 
That's why they designed the game so different unit types have updates in different eras. Between renaissance muskets and modern rifles, you'll have Industrial era with Cavalry and some Cannons.

So, that's already thought about and fixed :)

I think that's a good argument overall, but I'm not convinced it makes sense in the specific case of the musketman-infantry gap. If one of your unit types is an era behind your others, there's a tendency to phase that unit out of your build queues until it too gets an upgrade. There are a lot of instances where that's reasonable, but phasing out your default front line infantry unit is always going to be awkward gameplay-wise, and doing it at the time of the Napoleonic Wars and the American Civil War doesn't make any historical sense either.
 
That's pretty hard to glean when your first comment in the thread is;


When things don't really seem simplified at all. Certainly not by much - and not without the addition of an entirely new combat dynamic in support units.

I admit, generally speaking, it isn't simplified, so I might be too arbitrary to said "simplification is unacceptable" at the start of the thread.

What I care about is that they simplified a part the unit upgrade tree, which result in the lack of some units which I think is important. That result is what I care, I still don't care about the total amount of unit types in Civ6, or the amount of unit types in Civ6 compare to Civ5.

No more complain, I complained enough. What I do now is to wait till the modding tools of Civ6 release then add units by myself.
 
As evidenced by the changes to TR's design, Firaxis listens to their fans. It would be nice of them to listen now and at least provide some artwork for a Line Infantry, or Rifleman unit with teamcolor. We can do the rest. More content is always good, even if it's not used in the base game. Think of the Huscarls from the 1066 scenario in V. Weren't you glad they included them, even if you never used them? The more historical flavor options, the better.
 
As evidenced by the changes to TR's design, Firaxis listens to their fans. It would be nice of them to listen now and at least provide some artwork for a Line Infantry, or Rifleman unit with teamcolor. We can do the rest. More content is always good, even if it's not used in the base game. Think of the Huscarls from the 1066 scenario in V. Weren't you glad they included them, even if you never used them? The more historical flavor options, the better.

Don't need to worry too much about that, even if they don't provide artwork for a Line Infantry/Rifleman, it is very easy to make such a model by modifying the Redcoat/Imperial Guard model.:)
 
Don't need to worry too much about that, even if they don't provide artwork for a Line Infantry/Rifleman, it is very easy to make such a model by modifying the Redcoat/Imperial Guard model.:)

True, but nothing beats an actual model by Firaxis. It would be nice is all I'm saying.
 
Gameplay should always beat historical accuracy. Civilization V was horrible then it came to military unit placement in the tech tree and many units was horrible designed as well.
 
Gameplay should always beat historical accuracy. Civilization V was horrible then it came to military unit placement in the tech tree and many units was horrible designed as well.

Historical accuracy is a part of gameplay, and an important part.
 
Gameplay should always beat historical accuracy. Civilization V was horrible then it came to military unit placement in the tech tree and many units was horrible designed as well.

If you think Gameplay and Historical Accuracy are always at odds, then you don't know enough about the history.
In virtually every case, if you delve deep enough into the history, there's a historical solution that will solve or alleviate your Gameplay problem. Agree or disagree, but that's my opinion based on 50 years of playing games of all kinds and 30 years of writing military history and helping to write game rules and design games.

And in answer to an earlier post, my statistics on range and rate of fire (which I should have modified by saying 'effective rate of fire') are from having personally fired the muzzle-loading black powder rifle, breechloading rifle, breechloading carbine, magazine rifle, muzzle-loading smoothbore, and matchlock musket - to be completely truthful, the last only with a powder charge, they wouldn't let us load an actual ball and risk hitting someone!
You might be able to physically fire 10 - 15 rounds a minute with a breechloader, but you can't see your target until the black powder smoke dissipates, so except for filling the air with random lead (and firing off all your ammunition) you will have to wait between shots to 'acquire' even a target as big as a close-rank line of infantry. Same with the range: the French Chassepot rifle could fire to 800 - 1000 yards, but once everyone starts manufacturing gun smoke all around you, you're firing blind, and it becomes essentially a random rain of lead.

Now, to the specific problem, here's a possible solution:
Change the Matchlock 'Musketman' to a Support Unit.

Here's the argument: ALL musket-firers before the flintlock and socket bayonet were used in support of pikemen, because the musket men had two failings: they could not fire fast enough to defend against a cavalry charge, and they could not use the matchlock musket as a melee weapon. The musket weighed up to 20 pounds, and made a really clumsy club. Drop it to draw your sword, (which were, generally, really cheap 'hanger' short swords, more like a cheap machete) and you are no longer a musket man, just an unarmored, untrained swordsman.
... So, let's make the Musketman a Support unit, which can be stacked with a pikeman (as I understand it, the ONLY infantry melee unit in the Civ VI Medieval Era) and you automatically recreate in the game the 'standard' Pike and Shot Renaissance Melee formation.
Then, 150 years later in Game Time, you introduce the Fusilier with flintlock and bayonet, and get a Melee infantry unit that can do what the Pike and Musketman did together, all by its lonesome. This also coincides with the introduction of the colorful uniforms of the 18th century: the British 'Redcoat', the Bavarian and Prussian blue-coats, the Austrian and Royal French white, so it makes sense as a Graphic change as well. Finally, it puts the current Civ VI Unique Units for France and England, the Redcoat and Imperial Guard/Grenadier, in their proper place as they were both primarily flintlock-using units.

Then, a little less than 200 historical years, X Game Turns later, bring on the Magazine Rifleman, using a technology of Industrial Chemistry or Dynamite, because the change from Black Powder to Smokeless Powder, I contend, was much more important than the change from black powder smoothbore to black powder rifle, because of the visibility limitations of the black powder I described above.

You could have a Promotion available in the mid-Industrial Era (about 1860 in historical date) to allow Fusiliers to get extra Combat Power representing the 'transitional' black powder rifles which, after all, were only in general use for about 25 years historically.

That would give us the historical characteristics of the major distinctive 'gunpowder' infantry units for approximately 400 years, require only 3 distinct units, and also allow the game to represent the tactical interaction between the gunpowder units and other units in the game: The requirement for pike and matchlock to work together against cavalry, the ability of fusiliers to defend against cavalry so that cavalry-fusiliers-cannon have to combine their effects (in game terms, hit the enemy fusiliers with cannon, Then charge with the cavalry - the factors should be such that a headlong cavalry charge against intact Fusiliers will usually fail, as they did historically), and then the advent of 'universal' infantry with the Magazine Rifleman in the late 19th century.

-And, about 50 years later, the amalgamation of machine-gun and Rifle units into the Infantry of WWII: the fourth 'gunpowder' unit but also one that carries over into the Modern and beginning of the Information Eras.

Sorry to be so wordy, especially since Firaxis may have already addressed and solved all these problems!
 
Not... really... Historical influence is important. Accuracy is not at all important. The tech tree is the chief example of this. We get techs we know and can associate with, Nuclear Fission, Combustion, Rocketry... Yes we understand those.

But, for example, in civ4, it was also designed in such a way that you could Discover Nuclear Fission and Rocketry without ever Discovering combustion.

The game is a veritable "what-if" of history. Not a history simulator. It's as much about "What if the Aztecs built the pyramids" as it is "What if Modern stealth bombers were designed without ever inventing computers"
 
The excellent fix is already in-game - industrial units from other branches, like cavalry or cannons.

With this line of thinking we don't need the mortar unit because the cannon makes it obsolete in one tech. Further the cannon is obsolete by modern artillery in one tech so technically to make the unit last longer they should drop the mortar and cannon so there is less clutter and units last a long time.

The only thing I am saying is they seem to have such an obscenely large gap in terms of when the next evolution of infantry arrives. Yes you could trump the musketmen with the mortar, then the cannon, and finally the cavalry. But the rifleman unit would make sense if you intend to include cavalry or at least make them dragoon style(only pistols and swords) so they look the part.

If the cavalry looks like it's from the civil war period in time and the musketmen look like they are from the discovery of the new world there is a bit of an odd pairing there. I mean don't get me wrong, I'd love to field a Napoleonic style military for an era, but not for 2.5 eras. An yes they will more than definitely add units with expansions and maybe DLC. But from the get go it would appear the mid game is devoid of units to keep it interesting. Which if you think about it CiV had an interesting early game but none of those units lasted long enough. Which may have prompted this change. A sacrificing of mid-game for a longer early and late game.

Again we won't know until they show us some mid to late game videos, I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that we saw something that was very far from complete. As for the historical argument of having them update incrementally from harquebus style through promotions, I feel this would be best left as a mod and not as a mechanic in the game, seeing as they are still trying to get the newly modeled systems to work.
 
We do know that uniques do not replace existent units and that england (and probably france too) get their unique gunpowder unit later on the tech tree compared to when the musketment is unlocked. This would hint at the fact that there is perhaps a riflemen unit coming at one point or another.



Anyway, to increase variety it would be enough to allow you to recruit the unique unit of other civs in one of their cities you have captured and have both the base and unique unit available for recruitment.
 
Completely untrue. Four examples:

Colt Revolver
Beaumont-Adams was superior.
Spencer carbine, Henry rifle
Doesn't change the fact that the primary rifles during the war were muzzleloaders while Europe was transitioning into breechloading rifles.
Gatling gun - Europeans were buying these or making them under license until the invention of the Maxim machine gun in 1883.
Ever heard of the Mitrailleuse?

Also, this isn't even getting to the tactics used. America was using a bastardized version of Napoleonic warfare while Europe was slowly moving towards WWI.
 
Doesn't change the fact that the primary rifles during the war were muzzleloaders while Europe was transitioning into breechloading rifles.

Very slowly transitioning - the first breechloader actually adopted was the Dreyse needle gun, which Prussia officially adopted in 1859. The US Army didn't get an 'official' breechloader - the 45-70 carbine and rifle, until the 1870s, well after Prussia and France - but that's largely because as soon as the Civil War ended, military expenditures in the US dropped to Zero or as close to it as Congress could get, and stayed there for close to 20 years.
The real irony is that the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish War was called "The Hartford War', because both armies were equipped almost completely with small arms manufactured in Hartford. Connecticut by Colt, Winchester and Remington!

Also, this isn't even getting to the tactics used. America was using a bastardized version of Napoleonic warfare while Europe was slowly moving towards WWI.

America was using Napoleonic-type tactics in 1861, but not by 1865. Furthermore, if you look at the tactics displayed by both sides in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71, or the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, you'll see a great deal of 'Napoleonic Tactics' being displayed.
During the late 19th century, all armies were having an intense debate over how to adopt tactics to the new weapons. There's a huge mass of contemporary publications and modern commentary on all this, but the long and the short of it is that NO ONE realized just how completely firepower had overwhelmed all the traditional methods of infantry attack: That, in a nutshell was the catastrophe of World War One: by the time they learned how to attack successfully, the lessons had cost millions of men their lives, and several European monarchs their crowns and countries.

We should probably leave that out of Civ VI - or any other game...

Meanwhile, back in Civ, Tactics seem to be limited to 'flanking bonuses' and Promotions that give some extra combat points, but none of the Breakthrough Tactics like Upton's Fire and Maneuver in the 1870s or the German Stormtrooper/Infiltration tactics of 1917-1918, at least as far as we've seen so far, can be modeled or emulated.
Of course, they might unbalance the game enormously - as the German tactical application did at the beginning of WWII, but it seems a shame to have no chance to simulate anything like them at all...
 
Very slowly transitioning - the first breechloader actually adopted was the Dreyse needle gun, which Prussia officially adopted in 1859.

The Dreyse was adopted in 1841.

The US Army didn't get an 'official' breechloader - the 45-70 carbine and rifle, until the 1870s, well after Prussia and France

And Britain. And Norway.

. Furthermore, if you look at the tactics displayed by both sides in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71, or the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, you'll see a great deal of 'Napoleonic Tactics' being displayed.

No you won't. Mid-late 19th century warfare was based heavily on lines of skirmishers - with each soldier stationed several feet apart from the other - constantly being reinforced. Nothing like the big blocks of infantry you'd see during the time of Napoleon or in the American Civil War.
 
Can't answer to all comments. Some thoughts:

1. Different unit types having upgrades in different eras could lead to quite interesting strategic decisions. Of course as usual you prefer the latest units so you could psend less on upgrades, but if you have enough money, you could focus on a bit old units, which are going to upgrade soon.

2. Forgot to mention and this seems relevant here. Around industrial era players will unlock corps with culture. This affects the game quite significantly.
 
The Dreyse was adopted in 1841.

You are entirely correct, my apologies. My fault for trying to remember dates off the top of my head.




Mid-late 19th century warfare was based heavily on lines of skirmishers - with each soldier stationed several feet apart from the other - constantly being reinforced. Nothing like the big blocks of infantry you'd see during the time of Napoleon or in the American Civil War.

And in the American Civil War they weren't using Napoleonic Tactics either, they were using 'improved' tactics using 'double-quick time' and 'Zouave movement'. And all the 'skirmish lines' also required that the skirmish line be 'thickened' from support formations ranging from the British 'loose files' to the Prussian 'company columns' but in fact, as a quick review of the contemporary descriptions of battles in 1870 and 1877-78 will show, was that the skirmish lines weren't dispersed enough, and the support units not protected enough, to avoid horrendous casualties in any attempt to advance to contact.
As I stated earlier, none of the armies appreciated just how much firepower had improved, and how radical the change in infantry tactics would have to be to overcome it. The Germans were probably getting closest to an answer, when they began experimenting with giving individual platoon and section leaders more tactical independence to move their smaller units and started adding more machine-guns for 'fire support' within their battalions, but they didn't really come up with their definitive solution until 1917.

All of which, while fascinating, is aside from the point of this Thread, which is late-game units in Civ VI. I started, after seeing the leaked 'complete' Tech Tree, being very alarmed and concerned about it. Also, given that the Civ games have never, IMHO, gotten military units and their relative capabilities right throughout the franchise, I was afraid that 'what we saw' in the Tech Tree and units was 'what we're gonna get.'

I'm not so sure of that now, but I still think it's a good idea to get some discussion of what they should be doing, just in case they aren't doing it...
 
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