Lack of Later Era Units??

[TheD3rp]

The black powder breechloading rifle allowed up to 5 - 6 shots per minute and an effective range of up to 3 - 400 yards - if the black powder smoke allowed you to see any targets:

Where are you getting these statistics? A black powder breechloader generally had a rate of fire of about 10 - 15 rounds a minute and a range of around 600 yards.

research on real firing ranges during the American Civil War revealed that most firefights still took place at less than 100 yards' range - the same as with the smoothbore muskets of the Napoleonic Wars!

That's because the tactics and weapons the Americans were using during their civil war were hilariously outdated compared to what Europe was doing.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Then I'm a bit disappointed the list of support units appears to be very, very short. I hope they add more, either in later builds or at least in expansions.

We know about:
- Battering ram.
- Siege tower.
- Combat engineers.
- Medics.
- Anti-tank.
- Anti-aircraft.

Doesn't look "very, very short" to me.

 

[Magil]

We know about:
- Battering ram.
- Siege tower.
- Combat engineers.
- Medics.
- Anti-tank.
- Anti-aircraft.

Doesn't look "very, very short" to me.

That's a very short list, yes.

And while the military engineer is -technically- a support unit, I have a difficult time classifying it as one.

 

[stealth_nsk]

That's a very short list, yes.

And while the military engineer is -technically- a support unit, I have a difficult time classifying it as one.

It depends on what it does in the game.

The list is made so all units have their use and choice could be really interesting. Enhanced it would like to make choice less interesting.

 

[Magil]

It depends on what it does in the game.

The list is made so all units have their use and choice could be really interesting. Enhanced it would like to make choice less interesting.

Adding additional choices does not automatically make choices less interesting. What is important is that it's done well. VI has a -lot- of choices in the overall scheme of things, and most systems present in V expanded upon. We now have two separate tech trees (one for science, one for culture), policies are much more flexible and diverse, religion seems to have been greatly enhanced, Great People now all have unique abilities rather than just being standardized into a few categories... the kind of rhetoric you're preaching just doesn't match up with the steps taken in VI's overall design.

 

[zwei833]

FilthyRobot read out the Non Disclosure agreement in his twitch video... interesting that they were not meant to talk about Religions or pretty much anything after the Modern era... it appears some people may have breached their NDA's. Hope they aren't expecting an invite back to Firaxis before 21st October..

The NDA not allow people to talk about things after modern era. So I guess things before modern era should be already near their final version.

 

[jozef57]

i do understand that for the players who play short to normal fast games this could be not such a big issue, but for me i played all versions since 2. and only played 2 short games in that long time, i am a huge/ epic/marathon man as many realy many are and for us this is a major point of concern. and yes it woulf be nice to ahve some nice units visually too.

by the way what i still miss from 4 is the recce possibillitys. and at least some physical spy/sabatage untis ina game

 

[gfeier]

Where are you getting these statistics? A black powder breechloader generally had a rate of fire of about 10 - 15 rounds a minute and a range of around 600 yards.



That's because the tactics and weapons the Americans were using during their civil war were hilariously outdated compared to what Europe was doing.

Completely untrue. Four examples:

Colt Revolver
Spencer carbine
Henry rifle
Gatling gun - Europeans were buying these or making them under license until the invention of the Maxim machine gun in 1883.

 

[Amrunril]

I think more units are desirable not just for variety but to control the pace at which combat strength increases. Being ahead technologically should provide substantial military advantages, but being behind by a single tech shouldn't mean that your musketmen are facing down modern infantry. That said, I don't think it's reasonable to expect as many units in vanilla games as in expanded ones (and given the district system, it'll be much easier for Civ VI expansions to go back and add units than for them to go back and add buildings), so I wouldn't mind losing a few units as long as there aren't huge gaps. I'm also happy to see the bombard unit, as I thought the one major gap in Civ V's unit progression was that the same unit represented everything from the first cannons used in the renaissance to the ones used in the American Civil War.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think more units are desirable not just for variety but to control the pace at which combat strength increases. Being ahead technologically should provide substantial military advantages, but being behind by a single tech shouldn't mean that your musketmen are facing down modern infantry.

That's why they designed the game so different unit types have updates in different eras. Between renaissance muskets and modern rifles, you'll have Industrial era with Cavalry and some Cannons.

So, that's already thought about and fixed

 

[von_Wurttemburg]

That's why they designed the game so different unit types have updates in different eras. Between renaissance muskets and modern rifles, you'll have Industrial era with Cavalry and some Cannons.

So, that's already thought about and fixed

Not enough, adding CB, LSM and RM back would be better

 

[King Jason]

People need to stop comparing every single aspect of civ6 to civ5 complete. Yes, I have the personal expectation that many of the features of the game should return - which is why I was disappointed in civ5's release as it omitted so much that was civ4 complete. But we're talking whole game systems here; Religion, Espionage, Government systems - these things need to be reproduced as in depth as previous iterations. As for the rest of it? Missing a unit or a tech here and there is hardly an issue, seriously. Let's break it down;

People look at the tech tree and say it's so small - There's 68 techs in civ6. Techs, not civics. There were 72 in civ5 vanilla. The tree is smaller by four.

Now this thread is saying there are so few military units. Except in civ6, not including support units (or ships/planes), up to the age of flight, there are 19 units so far. in civ5? Up to the age of flight, excluding ships/planes, there were 20. TWENTY.

How many ships in civ6 up to the age of flight? Seven
How many ships in civ5 up to the age of flight? Eight.

How many planes in civ6 by the age of flight? one/two [second icon is unknown, either way it's a unit)
How many planes in civ by the age of flight?? one/two [If I'm nice and allow bombers to slip in]

How many support units are in civ6 up to the age of flight? About Four
How many support units are in civ6 up to the age of flight? Zero

Math is fun, civ6? 32 units up to when planes enter the game.
Math is fun, civ5? 30 units up to when planes enter the game.

Now, I did this really quick so admittedly it could be off by a unit or two, but the point remains; Civ6 has BARELY less units than civ5 in any category. The game is fine. People are acting as if things are trimmed down so dramatically when really - they aren't at all. In most cases, the addition of new systems (civics, support units) is actually increasing the relative amounts of certain features in the release versions, with respect to the mechanic being discussed (research nodes, units, buildings, etc)

Want to go back one more game? In the first category of units (no ships/planes) up to the age of flight there are about 20 units in vanilla civ4.

Civ6's unit count is fine - it's tech count is fine - it' building count is fine. Inflating that stuff usually falls, quite fairly, in the realm of expansion (and mod) material. Inflated unit counts have never been a part of a civ's base release. As it stands now, it appears as if Civ6 is set to be the most robust version of civilization ever released.

Spoiler :

I used Flight as the barometer because there are more eras in civ6 then in civ5 and the "modern" era of civ6 is equivalent to the industrial era of civ5. So I used flight to avoid confusion of language. Furthermore, I stopped there as it's difficult to assess which units in the modern eras are support and which are not.

 

[Cerilis]

People need to stop comparing every single aspect of civ6 to civ5 complete. Yes, I have the personal expectation that many of the features of the game should return - which is why I was disappointed in civ5's release as it omitted so much that was civ4 complete. But we're talking whole game systems here; Religion, Espionage, Government systems - these things need to be reproduced as in depth as previous iterations. As for the rest of it? Missing a unit or a tech here and there is hardly an issue, seriously. Let's break it down;

People look at the tech tree and say it's so small - There's 68 techs in civ6. Techs, not civics. There were 72 in civ5 vanilla. The tree is smaller by four.

Now this thread is saying there are so few military units. Except in civ6, not including support units (or ships/planes), up to the age of flight, there are 19 units so far. in civ5? Up to the age of flight, excluding ships/planes, there were 20. TWENTY.

How many ships in civ6 up to the age of flight? Seven
How many ships in civ5 up to the age of flight? Eight.

How many planes in civ6 by the age of flight? one/two [second icon is unknown, either way it's a unit)
How many planes in civ by the age of flight?? one/two [If I'm nice and allow bombers to slip in]

How many support units are in civ6 up to the age of flight? About Four
How many support units are in civ6 up to the age of flight? Zero

Math is fun, civ6? 32 units up to when planes enter the game.
Math is fun, civ5? 30 units up to when planes enter the game.

Now, I did this really quick so admittedly it could be off by a unit or two, but the point remains; Civ6 has BARELY less units than civ5 in any category. The game is fine. People are acting as if things are trimmed down so dramatically when really - they aren't at all. In most cases, the addition of new systems (civics, support units) is actually increasing the relative amounts of certain features in the release versions, with respect to the mechanic being discussed (research nodes, units, buildings, etc)

Want to go back one more game? In the first category of units (no ships/planes) up to the age of flight there are about 20 units in vanilla civ4.

Civ6's unit count is fine - it's tech count is fine - it' building count is fine. Inflating that stuff usually falls, quite fairly, in the realm of expansion (and mod) material. Inflated unit counts have never been a part of a civ's base release. As it stands now, it appears as if Civ6 is set to be the most robust version of civilization ever released.

Spoiler :

I used Flight as the barometer because there are more eras in civ6 then in civ5 and the "modern" era of civ6 is equivalent to the industrial era of civ5. So I used flight to avoid confusion of language. Furthermore, I stopped there as it's difficult to assess which units in the modern era are support and which are not.

The only thing I think is weird, is that riflemen seem to be missing. I totally okay with pikemen being the only non-uu medieval era melee unit. Btw, do warriors get upgraded to spearmen in the classical era?

 

[j51]

Honestly, what their doing makes some sense, but the gap between the "Musketman" (really Arquebusier) and modern Infantry is too huge. They should put a Line Infantry in there somewhere. That would also make more sense as the generic unit for France and England's UUs.

 

[Cerilis]

Honestly, what their doing makes some sense, but the gap between the "Musketman" (really Arquebusier) and modern Infantry is too huge. They should put a Line Infantry in there somewhere. That would also make more sense as the generic unit for France and England's UUs.

I think though, that a lot or at least some UUs, won't replace a unit but be an extra unit.

 

[zwei833]

People need to stop comparing every single aspect of civ6 to civ5 complete. Yes, I have the personal expectation that many of the features of the game should return - which is why I was disappointed in civ5's release as it omitted so much that was civ4 complete. But we're talking whole game systems here; Religion, Espionage, Government systems - these things need to be reproduced as in depth as previous iterations. As for the rest of it? Missing a unit or a tech here and there is hardly an issue, seriously. Let's break it down;

People look at the tech tree and say it's so small - There's 68 techs in civ6. Techs, not civics. There were 72 in civ5 vanilla. The tree is smaller by four.

Now this thread is saying there are so few military units. Except in civ6, not including support units (or ships/planes), up to the age of flight, there are 19 units so far. in civ5? Up to the age of flight, excluding ships/planes, there were 20. TWENTY.

How many ships in civ6 up to the age of flight? Seven
How many ships in civ5 up to the age of flight? Eight.

How many planes in civ6 by the age of flight? one/two [second icon is unknown, either way it's a unit)
How many planes in civ by the age of flight?? one/two [If I'm nice and allow bombers to slip in]

How many support units are in civ6 up to the age of flight? About Four
How many support units are in civ6 up to the age of flight? Zero

Math is fun, civ6? 32 units up to when planes enter the game.
Math is fun, civ5? 30 units up to when planes enter the game.

Now, I did this really quick so admittedly it could be off by a unit or two, but the point remains; Civ6 has BARELY less units than civ5 in any category. The game is fine. People are acting as if things are trimmed down so dramatically when really - they aren't at all. In most cases, the addition of new systems (civics, support units) is actually increasing the relative amounts of certain features in the release versions, with respect to the mechanic being discussed (research nodes, units, buildings, etc)

Want to go back one more game? In the first category of units (no ships/planes) up to the age of flight there are about 20 units in vanilla civ4.

Civ6's unit count is fine - it's tech count is fine - it' building count is fine. Inflating that stuff usually falls, quite fairly, in the realm of expansion (and mod) material. Inflated unit counts have never been a part of a civ's base release. As it stands now, it appears as if Civ6 is set to be the most robust version of civilization ever released.

Spoiler :

I used Flight as the barometer because there are more eras in civ6 then in civ5 and the "modern" era of civ6 is equivalent to the industrial era of civ5. So I used flight to avoid confusion of language. Furthermore, I stopped there as it's difficult to assess which units in the modern eras are support and which are not.

Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me -- if you're refer to complainer like me, I never complain about, and I don't care the amount of unit types in Civ6, I just complain about the lack of certain unit type in Civ6.

 

[j51]

I think though, that a lot or at least some UUs, won't replace a unit but be an extra unit.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that they need something between "Musketmen" and Infantry.

 

[stealth_nsk]

True, but that doesn't change the fact that they need something between "Musketmen" and Infantry.

I don't think it's a fact. From gameplay perspective the unit distribution looks good. From historical perspective, for the given number of units, placing upgrade between Musketmen and Infantry is the best too - as discussed in the thread before.

Of course there will be mods with units some players are nostalgic with.

 

[King Jason]

Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me -- if you're refer to complainer like me, I never complain about, and I don't care the amount of unit types in Civ6, I just complain about the lack of certain unit type in Civ6.

That's pretty hard to glean when your first comment in the thread is;

simplification is unacceptable.

When things don't really seem simplified at all. Certainly not by much - and not without the addition of an entirely new combat dynamic in support units.

 

[j51]

I don't think it's a fact. From gameplay perspective the unit distribution looks good. From historical perspective, for the given number of units, placing upgrade between Musketmen and Infantry is the best too - as discussed in the thread before.

Of course there will be mods with units some players are nostalgic with.

No, the gap between them is too large from a gameplay perspective. I outlined an excellent fix to the problem earlier. As for the historical perspective, it's been better argued that the placing is woefully inadequate. Boris Gudenuf's argument still stands. No one has come up with a decent rebuttal.

Mods are nice and all, but a proper Firaxis designed unit is better. It's better to have the assets and for people that don't want them to mod them out than vice versa.