[TOT] Lalande 21185 - Civ2 Test of Time Sci-fi Scenario Help

[Valka D'Ur]

You can't do infinite Xenology Studies anyway. It resets to 0 when you get to 250.

I've had games where I had lots of cities on Nona. And actually, the Dondasch doesn't show up in every game (at least not for me).

Something else that's irritating: when one of the three alien Civs has a tech I need but I don't have the time/money to arrange to steal it, they wipe each other out in the meantime... They can be extremely aggressive with each other, and utterly stupid when fighting the Nona barbarians.

However... if I recall, Collective Government means less civil disorder. It also means slower tech, but I offset that by building as many science boosters as I can, and converting as many citizens to Einsteins as I can (without starving the city). Sooner or later, the rate of tech advancement will increase dramatically and it's nice not to have to worry about civil disorder.

 

[IMBC2]

Yeah, like Future Tech, you can only do up to 255 Xenology Studies before it becomes Xenology Study #0 and "wraps around" back to 1.

Being a Confederacy can be war-friendly too if you build lots of DoppleGarages and Satellite Uplinks. Collective government can be great with its martial law and zero unhappiness caused by troops outside the city (thus eliminating the need for DoppleGarages), but the "We Love the Ruler Day"s are not as good for Collective Rule as for a Confederacy. Personally, I love when a size 3 city grows to size 10 in just 7 turns

Something else that's irritating: when one of the three alien Civs has a tech I need but I don't have the time/money to arrange to steal it, they wipe each other out in the meantime... They can be extremely aggressive with each other, and utterly stupid when fighting the Nona barbarians.

Well, here is something fun you might try (if you are significantly more powerful than all the aliens)...
Set up an "alien protection program" by building (or capturing) some towns directly in the line of fire of the two warring alien factions. If possible, send out numerous AENEACs loaded with troops to supply your "arbitrator" bases and Flat Tops loaded with Kinetocores to take out the Nonan Barbarians whenever necessary. If the aliens want to attack you, let them... after all, as long as they don't wipe out each other, they'll be allowed to continue their research for techs that you may be able to steal later.



However, I am still curious about why Future Tech (from the Original Games) can always be researched anytime the Tech Selection screen appears whereas Xenology Studies may sometimes not appear (like "Oedo Techs").

 

[Catfish]

All hail the mighty Wobbegong!

I get that all the time. A small shrine will do nicely.

...and double defense versus air units (like Adamastors and Urdars ).

I suspect it's more like triple. Marquis de Sodaq's combat guide is a little ambiguous: it implies that only sea units with AEGIS get the x3 bonus, but he could be just referring to the standard game's AEGIS Cruiser. I'd read somewhere else that the AEGIS bonus was actually x4. Testing it out, it appears that both land and sea units with the AEGIS flag receive a x3 bonus.

So, I'm not sure what my Kineticore's defense (base defense 3 with firepower 5 IIRC) in my city will be in case an Adamastor or an Urdar comes to visit, though I am fairly certain that the Kineticore is a fighter unit. Will a Kineticore defend my town better than an Ur-Titan assisted by a Fulmine Ring (assuming that my town center is on Graminae (Sci-fi's version of Grassland (no special defense bonus))?

Purely based on combat ability, you'd be better off with the Ur-Titan + Fulmine Ring. The Adamastor and Urdar units each have the Fighter flag, so the Kineticore's scrambling defence bonus drops from x4 to x2. You have the Kineticore's adjusted defence: 3 (base) x3 (AEGIS) x2 (Fighter scramble) = 18, compared with the Ur-Titan's adjusted defence: 6 (base) x3 (AEGIS) x2 (Fulmine Ring) = 36. On top of that, the Ur-Titan has 33% more hp. Their firepower values cancel each other out.

However, I am still curious about why Future Tech (from the Original Games) can always be researched anytime the Tech Selection screen appears whereas Xenology Studies may sometimes not appear (like "Oedo Techs").

Actually, it's the same deal for all techs in both games. Tech availability seems not only dependent on prerequisites, but also on the combination of other techs available at the time. Don't know the determining factors.

 

[IMBC2]

Okay, Valka, this one's for you:

Something else that's irritating: when one of the three alien Civs has a tech I need but I don't have the time/money to arrange to steal it, they wipe each other out in the meantime...

So, which alien techs interest your Uridian civilization?

They can be extremely aggressive with each other, and utterly stupid when fighting the Nona barbarians.

Oh, do tell, please. Humor us with a few examples, especially with their mishaps against the Nona Barbarians. I always love a good sci-fi story

 

[Spoonwood]

How has everone here fared as an alien tribe instead of as a human tribe?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I've tried it, but never finished a game that way. It's not because I got killed, it's because I found it hard to remember that my normal strategies wouldn't work because of the techs I couldn't have.

In other words, I was too lazy to learn a new strategy, so have never given it a serious attempt.

 

[IMBC2]

I've tried it, but never finished a game that way. It's not because I got killed, it's because I found it hard to remember that my normal strategies wouldn't work because of the techs I couldn't have.

In other words, I was too lazy to learn a new strategy, so have never given it a serious attempt.

I looked at the tech tree from my crude group of files, and it definitely seems as if the Lalande 21185 game was meant to be played as a human civ. Aliens do get to build Orreries, which will no doubt help with early-game happiness. They will also have access to Ixions, a unit that can move 3 spaces and attack other units and is great for early-game exploration. It's possible that an alien civilization may start with Circular Supports and be able to build Ixions from the get-go. The earliest exploration unit that Humans can hope for is the Ambassador which can move 2 spaces.

It is possible to upgrade the Nidus (Settler unit) earlier than its Human counterpart, the Colonist, by researching GEnIEs to get Meliors (Sci-fi Alien equivalent of Original Game Engineers). However, while being able to move 3 spaces in one turn and being able to do twice the work of a Nidus in one turn is great, the Melior far pales in comparison to its Human counterpart, the Environeer. Unlike the Environeer, the Melior does not treat all terrain as roaded (like Alpine Troops from the Original Game) and cannot cross impassable terrain. The Environeer is guaranteed to be able to move at least 6 spaces per turn, which gives it the ability to found a nearby city on the turn that it is trained.

Although the Tech Poster claims that anyone can research Confederation, I have heard claims on this board that the Confederation is a Human-only Tech. That makes sense since only Aliens can research The Great Joining (for all of you Fundamentalism fans out there.)

I believe Spoonwood claimed that he'd once built a spaceship as the aliens, but it wasn't a cakewalk by any stretch. I think I believe him.

 

[IMBC2]

I forgot to mention that only Aliens can build Roscoe's Circus (Sci-fi's version of Hanging Gardens); perhaps they can start to construct it on their very first turn if they start with Circular Supports. Thus, the Aliens have early access to happiness improvements. However, as Aliens can't research Applied Hedonics, they will not be able to build Hologaming Arcades. So the tradeoff of accessing early happiness structures is a restriction to a later, more powerful happiness building.

Unification Theory does not grant the Aliens any new units or structures, whereas its Human counterpart, Artificial Gravity, allows construction of Gravitic Generators (Sci-fi's Solar Plant) and Kineticores.

As for Meliors and Environeers, getting Meliors requires fewer techs than getting Environeers. A strategy as Aliens might be to focus on getting Meliors ASAP and then to focus on rapid expansion before any Human civilization has the chance to research Basic Automation to enable its Environeers.

 

[Spoonwood]

I don't know how to set it up... but if other people here have interest, I'd like to play a Lalande 21185 GOTM. Anyone else interested/know how to set this up properly?

 

[Magic_gorter]

I don't know how to set it up... but if other people here have interest, I'd like to play a Lalande 21185 GOTM. Anyone else interested/know how to set this up properly?

At the moment I organise the normal GOTM games so I could help you a little......

You should post it perhaps under the normal GOTM section (and mention it in this thread perhaps) but mention that is only for Civ ToT and not normal civ2. Start a game (under the conditions you want) and save directly. This save is the start for everybody who wants to play. If there are special rules or setup made mention it. Just look how the normal civ GOTM is showed perhaps that is of some use. Perhaps a screenshot is nice to add.

Mention a deadline and make sure that you get savegames at the end of the game and perhaps some save somewhere in midgame. Determine what condition decide who wins (score, who finish earliest,etc).

If things are not clear just ask.

 

[IMBC2]

Well, I finally waged war on the Nonan Barbarians.

In fact, I'd spent 5 turns or so on 10% science and 2 turns on 0% science and 70% taxes, all the while building -- and sometimes IPRBing -- Kinetocores, Havocs (Ur-titans were way too expensive), and Fulmine Rings, before finally driving in a freight to get Quantum Gravitics in 1150 PE. The extreme taxes were partly used to IRB the All-Field (cost a total of about 2600 Gold -- yeowch!).

Okay, if you want to explore Naumachia really fast, use Kineticores. But just remember that they have to end their turns in a city/carrier (flattop) or they run out of fuel.

Thank you, Valka of the Uridians, your scouting advice helped me immensely!
For in 1160 PE, I saw my first Urdar enemy in Orbit. I quickly teleported a Veteran Kinetocore there to engage it. And jumpin' Jehusafed! Turns out that on Family (Prince) Difficulty, Veteran Kinetocores under the influence of the All-Field tear through both Urdars and Adamastors like a brick thrown through tin foil! I was able to get both Singularity Physics (after killing an Adamastor) and Wormhole Genesis (for killing that Urdar) in the same turn.

I wanted to get to Quantronics ASAP because I wanted to see the entire map using the View from Earth (like the Original's Apollo Wonder), mainly to see what those nasty Nonan Barbarians were up to. I finally completed it through Hi-Die Tankers and IPRB in 1190 PE. All 9 of the Nonan Barbarians were visible among all 4 maps, including 3 Dondasch units roaming on Nona. On the next turn, I continued to hunt down those Adamastors and Urdars (pansies to Veteran All-Field Kinetocores on Family Difficulty), and sure enough, I could see new ones regenerate on Nona immediately after I'd made the kills.

But that's not all that I found out about those Nonan Barbarians, at least on Family Difficulty:

1) There was a reason that I was in no particular hurry to get into Proteocracy (Democracy). I wanted to experiment with the NE Plus Ultra nuclear bomb, hence another reason for (over)training Kinetocores to hunt down Adamastors. I'd built some Dopplegarages (Police Stations) in my cities and in those cities, I had decided to build NE Plus Ultras (Nukes). Their primary purpose was going to be annihilation of the enemy navy clusters over wide open waters (to avoid pollution). However, a Nonan Urdar happened to be wandering amonst a group of my first victims, the green alien tribe (though I cannot recall their name). Five boats were wiped out, plus the Nonan Urdar! When I rechecked the maps at that point, I could only count 2 total Urdars, even looking through the Nona map at least 3 times. On the next turn, I watched closely as those nasty Nonan Barbarians made their move, but I could count only TWO Urdars! I noticed an Urdar in the vast expanse of space and decided to throw an NE Plus Ultra at it. It died, and then I checked the maps again, this time counting only ONE Urdar unit. Over the next few turns, the same phenomenon happened when Adamastors were nuked but then failed to regenerate.

2) Whenever barbarians in general are generated, they tend NOT to attack on the first turn that they move, at least on Family Difficulty. One example of this occurred when I had seen that an Urdar had move to the far northern edge of the map, but I had no Kinetocore nearby on any of the four maps. I did, however, have an AENEAC (Aegis Cruiser) in the vicinity and dared to put it close to the Urdar. On the next turn, the Urdar attacked my Veteran AENEAC, but on Family Difficulty, couldn't even sink that! My AENEAC had about one-third HP remaining.

If anyone cares to test these phenomena or has experienced similar (or even contradictory) happenings in the Lalande 21185 TOT universe, please share.

 

[IMBC2]

Okay, Wobbegong, this one's for you:

According to Sodak's Civ2 combat guide:

(3) Any helicopter attacked by a fighter suffers a x0.5 defense adjustment and has its firepower reduced to 1.

On Family (Prince) Difficulty, my Kinetocores, with the All-Field influence, took out Urdars and Adamastors quite easily -- and on a regular basis -- without even getting their HP reduced to a yellow bar.

Are you absolutely sure that Urdars and Adamastors are Fighter Units and NOT Helicopters? I'm sure that my Kinetochores would be taking lots more damage if these nasty Nonan Barbarian units were fighters (no firepower reduction to 1 and no 50% defense penalty). I mean, looking at the sheer numbers (21 Attack, 21 Defense, 10 HP, 10 FP), it seems as if Urdars and Adamastors can wipe the floor against any unit that attacks them. Or is this crazy success against these fearsome flying behemoths likely due to my Difficulty level?

By the way, if I were playing at Phylum (Deity) Difficulty, how much harder would it be to kill these giants with Kinetocores?

 

[Catfish]

Five boats were wiped out, plus the Nonan Urdar! When I rechecked the maps at that point, I could only count 2 total Urdars, even looking through the Nona map at least 3 times. On the next turn, I watched closely as those nasty Nonan Barbarians made their move, but I could count only TWO Urdars! I noticed an Urdar in the vast expanse of space and decided to throw an NE Plus Ultra at it. It died, and then I checked the maps again, this time counting only ONE Urdar unit. Over the next few turns, the same phenomenon happened when Adamastors were nuked but then failed to regenerate.

The UnitKilled trigger in the events scripting does not account for units killed within the radius of a nuclear blast. That means they won't respawn and you won't get your advance. The UnitKilled trigger doesn't work for units killed by ChangeTerrain events, either. I guess you can use this to your advantage: you only need to kill one of each type conventionally to receive your advance. You can nuke the rest and not have to worry about them respawning.

Whenever barbarians in general are generated, they tend NOT to attack on the first turn that they move, at least on Family Difficulty.

Are these newly-created ones or ones that have just entered a new map? AI units, for some reason, get assigned the fortify order immediately after transporting. This is cancelled in the following turn and they continue on their merry way. Don't ask me why. I had problems with this when working on a scenario of mine.

Are you absolutely sure that Urdars and Adamastors are Fighter Units and NOT Helicopters?

They're both. They both have the fighter flag and they're both air units with zero range. Both have the helicopter damage override flag (a ToT-only trait). When Urdars and Adamastors attack a fighter unit stationed in a city, they are considered fighter units. The defender has its scramble multiplier reduced accordingly (see post #23). Circumstances are different when the attacker becomes the defender:

(3) Any helicopter attacked by a fighter suffers a x0.5 defense adjustment and has its firepower reduced to 1.

After running a few tests, I believe this statement to be only partially correct. The attacking bonus against air units with a range of 0 (helicopters) appears to check out, but it applies to any unit with the Air Superiority role (AI role 3), whether they have the fighter flag or not. The attacker can belong to any domain, ie, land, sea or air. The AI role is not displayed in the game; you have to check rules.txt for that. The following units in the Sci-Fi game have it: Bombus, Griffe, Interceptor, Annulus, Gyrfalcon, Kineticore, Hammer and Typhoeus. All of these units will punch above their weight when attacking Urdars and Adamastors. As defenders, they're not quite as effective.

By the way, if I were playing at Phylum (Deity) Difficulty, how much harder would it be to kill these giants with Kinetocores?

That's in the Combat Guide as well (section 3n):

Barbarians do not always attack and defend at normal unit strengths. Barbarian archers defend with a base value of 1, not the normal archer defense value of 2. Other barbarian units have normal defense values. All barbarian attack factors are affected by the difficulty level of game being played:

• Chieftain x0.25 the normal attack value
• Warlord x0.5
• Prince x0.75
• King x1
• Emperor x1.25
• Deity x1.50

 

[IMBC2]

Are these newly-created ones or ones that have just entered a new map? AI units, for some reason, get assigned the fortify order immediately after transporting. This is cancelled in the following turn and they continue on their merry way. Don't ask me why. I had problems with this when working on a scenario of mine.

So does this mean that if an Urdar or Adamastor chooses to teleport to another map, then it will NOT attack anything on the same turn?

It's a little bit too late for me to test this now because I have already nuked Urdars and Adamastors out of existence.

 

[Catfish]

So does this mean that if an Urdar or Adamastor chooses to teleport to another map, then it will NOT attack anything on the same turn?

That's right; at least I've never seen anything different - yet. Applies to all AI units. That includes a Dondasch, should it ever find its way to a Teleporter and use it.

 

[IMBC2]

I've had games where I had lots of cities on Nona. And actually, the Dondasch doesn't show up in every game (at least not for me).

It is currently PE 1270, 12 turns since the discovery of Quantum Gravitics in my game. There is now only ONE Dondasch unit on Nona. There initially were 3 in PE 1160, and I definitely did see them all in PE 1190.

I think I have an explanation as to why the other 2 might have just disappeared without a trace. Up to this point, I had never ventured to build a Gravitic Grid or to transport Environeers to Nona via Dropship. IIRC, the Barbarian Papers from the Cradle of Civilization website state that if certain barbarian units do not see any activity for a number of turns, then they will simply vanish.

It's likely that in all of Valka's games, the 3 Dondaschs did indeed show up on Nona as soon as she'd discovered Quantum Gravitics, although she might not have been aware of their presence, especially without the View from Earth Wonder. However, as she could have delayed sending troops/Environeers to Nona while having her hands full with the Adamastors and Urdars long enough so that once she'd gotten to Nona or built the View from Earth, the Dondaschs had simply "died of boredom".

Actually, it's the same deal for all techs in both games. Tech availability seems not only dependent on prerequisites, but also on the combination of other techs available at the time. Don't know the determining factors.

So maybe if I obtain every possible tech I can research other than Earthgate, then I might forever have the option to research either Xenology Studies or Earthgate when I cross that bridge? (i. e. research Xenology Studies "until the cows come home")

I currently have 2 Dropships with 4 Salmagundies each and another Dropship with a Singulon and an Ur-Titan near the "island" of the Dondasch. I don't normally do this, but to test Wobbegong's explanation, I shall create 2 separate saves:

a) Here, I attempt to kill the Dondasch, get rewarded the special tech, and then hike my science rate up to find out whether or not I am one day forced to research Earthgate without the option to research any more Xenology studies.

b) Here, I build a Gravitic Grid, send an NE Plus Ultra through it and nuke the Dondasch out of existence, enabling me to freely build colonies on Nona without fear of Barbarian attack. I can observe how quickly cities on Nona can grow and how much Data (Trade) I can raise from these towns.

 

[Catfish]

I think I have an explanation as to why the other 2 might have just disappeared without a trace. Up to this point, I had never ventured to build a Gravitic Grid or to transport Environeers to Nona via Dropship. IIRC, the Barbarian Papers from the Cradle of Civilization website state that if certain barbarian units do not see any activity for a number of turns, then they will simply vanish.

All 3 types of Nonan giant possess the 'barbarian unit will not expire' flag (another trait unique to ToT), so that shouldn't happen. If you play the Sci-Fi game on a very small map, eg, 40 x 50 tiles, quite a few of the Nonan giants' spawn co-ordinates will fall outside the map boundary. There are 10 randomised locations for each of these CreateUnit events. If the selected location is unavailable (eg, doesn't exist or is blocked by another tribe), the next location in the list is selected. If there are no valid locations left, no unit will be created. That's a definite possibility. [Edit: Just to add to that, the Dondasch is a land unit and cannot spawn on Hydrogen, Methane or Ammonia. Sci-Fi maps are randomised.]

So maybe if I obtain every possible tech I can research other than Earthgate, then I might forever have the option to research either Xenology Studies or Earthgate when I cross that bridge? (i. e. research Xenology Studies "until the cows come home")

Availability comes and goes, even when you have all the prerequisites, so there's no guarantee that once you research XS 1, XS 2+ will automatically be available when there are other advances available for research.

 

[IMBC2]

First of all, here are the results of my experiments:

(1) I used 5 Salmagundies to Sabotage the Dondasch and finally did it in with a Singulon. I was promptly rewarded with the Wormhole Control Tech. At 60% Science, I researched more Xenology Studies before my only option was to research Transfer Gate. I did so, then researched 2 more Xenology Studies, then sadly enough, Earthgate was then my only research option . I decided to put this save on the shelf and to carry on with my other save file:

(2) I used the NE Plus Ultra to disintegrate the Dondasch once and for all, sent in some Environeers to clean up the biochaos (in the process, I learned that one cannot build a city over a polluted square), and built my first Nona city called Nowhere on the square on which the Dondasch last stood...



By the way, while I was away, I'd "goaded" the Vallan into capturing my relocated capital shortly AFTER I'd launched a minimal spaceship to Earth so now, I have over 550 turns to explore these new, fascinating, foreboding worlds

A few observations about Nona:

(1) There are a lot of long Ancient Halls (Movement cost of 3) on Nona. These would be an absolute CHORE for Alien Meliors to navigate.

(2) The "oceans" (I guess we can call them "Gas squares") of hydrogen, methane, and ammonia each give 2 food, 2 shields, and 1 data (barring "specials"). This means that after building an Algae Farm, a Gas Square will give 3 food, which can support an extra citizen and still allow the city to continue growing, an advantage unique to towns founded on the gas giant planet of Nona. Even cities founded on Ancient Hall squares can grow pretty well if one is willing to rush-buy an Algae Farm quickly after the city is founded. (Personally, I never knew that algae was hardy enough to survive -200 degree temperatures! )

(3) Anytime a Nonan city grows, whether by a full food box or WLTPD, the citizens seem too shy to utilize an Ancient Hall square. They would much rather become an Entertainer. Why is that? After all, Ancient Hall squares are not totally useless -- sure, there's no food to be gained from such squares, but they DO give 2 shields and 5 trade IIRC which is better than a Salt Flat square back on Funestis (0 food, 2 shields, but only 1 trade).

(4) Human Environeers can actually build cities on Storms! (Imagine sending a manned spacecraft to Jupiter to build a colony on its giant red spot!) However, no freight can ever be delivered into the city. Alien Meliors cannot even enter a Storm square.

(5) According to the Civilopedia on Nonan terrain, the effects of Transformation for all listed terrain on this planet is "N/A". However, I accidentally hit the "o" button when ordering one of my Environeers, but the Environeer listened and started trying to Transform the Levianthana square into God-knows-what! I wonder why I didn't get the message "This action cannot be performed on this terrain [?]"

 

[IMBC2]

So they say (the Civilopedia, at least) that Naumachia is not a nice place to live.

However, my first Naumachian colony Wednesday is now simply thriving! It lies on 6 Permafrost squares with no Spikes/Impalers. With a Harvester built, each doubly-cultivated Permafrost square can produce 6 food! I have built Refineries (mines) on both Ices squares and Slideways (railroads) all over the town. Much of the other terrain is Bare Rock, which, like Permafrost, only takes 3 Environeer/Melior turns to cultivate (irrigate) and 3 total turns to build Slideways on. At max cultivation, Wednesday is currently producing 80 Food, 149 Material, and a net 132 Data (without trade routes), good for a maximum 40 population!

And Valka D'Ur, you were right about the Sulci. They take 8 Environeers to cultivate in one turn and 6 total Environeer/Melior turns to build Slideways on! However, the first Cultivation gives the square +2 food and the second cultivation gives +1 food. So I guess that if you have the patience, a city built on nothing but Sulci can grow decently with pretty good production to boot.

And Dust Bowls are a little worse than Ocean Squares. In the food department, they are the same, giving 1 food, but they provide only 1 data instead of 2.

I don't know if this is the luck of the draw or not, but in my current game, there seem to be "islands" of Dust Bowl in a large "sea" of land. It seems like it should be the other way around. Is this normal for Naumachia?

Not that I'm complaining because it allows more colonies to be built, and Naumachia definitely is a better place for building towns than Orbital Space and arguably Funestis, too!

 

[IMBC2]

Looking through the Civilopedia, I noticed some terrain types that do not appear in my current world:

(1) Ancient Room
Other than the fact that it is impassable terrain, there does not seem to be anything too special about these rooms from what I read in the Civilopedia. Was it just the "luck of the draw" that I did not get any Ancient Room squares in my Lalande universe?

(2) Eilodon
As the Civilopedia states, the city of Eilodon is a wonderful myth, but if it were true (i.e. found as a workable square on Nona), wow! Imagine getting 9 food, 9 material, and 9 data from just one square or even building a city on such a square (especially with a Harvester building and a GEnIE park)! Is there any chance whatsoever that an Eilodon square could appear in any randomly-generated map?