Landing operations - realistic or not?

[Ahriman]

Poor Alaska; it would have been one contiguous, bustling metropolis by now if only it had stayed part of the USSR.

Yes, just like Kamchatka.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamchatka

 

[Kriku]

I mean, there's a lot of sticking points in this thread, but I have to say: On the huge earth map that shipped in Civ 4, GEORGIA, HALF OF ALABAMA, BOTH CAROLINAS AND NORTHERN FLORIDA take up TWO TILES. So in real life, you're talking about 3 major ports - Savannah, Jacksonville, and Charleston - ON ONE TILE.

But what about Finnish Winter War scenario for instance? I am completely aware that on an Earth map, most of the tiles should have a port of some kind.

 

[Ahriman]

Why would you want them to design the game around a hypothetical Finnish Winter War scenario, and not on the kinds of map scales where most games are going to be played.

Suppose, out of "realism", you said that units could only embark in cities. You'd then be highly unrealistic for most map scales.

And it would be bad for gameplay.

 

[Kriku]

There are scenarios of the Finnish Winter War, Greek & Persian wars, U.S. Civil War & War of Independence and the Vietnam War for the previous versions of Civ to name a few.

I did not say that units should only embark in cities. I said that there should be a flag "no embark from the shore".

And it would be good for gameplay.

 

[andrewlt]

Only very special, ultralight "tanks" can parachute. You can't airdrop a MBT. In fact, most EU countries don't even have transports that could lift them (the UK for instance has only 4 transports big enough to lift a single MBT, Germany none)

That's more because of politics rather than capability, though.

 

[GeoModder]

Yes, just like Kamchatka.

Hey! Stalin did his best with the Gulags and all...

That's more because of politics rather than capability, though.

I doubt a 30-ton armor can safely land on 'chutes...

 

[ClasuSiosa]

Maybe not on chutes, but look at the C-37 or whatever it is, it can carry like 4+ Abrams MBTs onto a temarary airstrip which any unit could easily construct even in a 1 week turn. So maybe the MBTs shouldnt be in the first wave but could easily come in the 2nd.

On the amphibious bit, i think we need to play it a little before we say amphib isnt working, and if it isnt, MOD it. And i sounds fairly balanced and workable the way it is.

 

[the343danny]

Yes, just like Kamchatka.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamchatka

Dont take what he said seriously. It just was a reference to communists having more food in Civ 4

 

[Kilroywashere]

Dear All

First, I believe that not all units are embarkable from landscape. Modern units most probably need ports. It might have been possible to embark a 19th century cavalry with makeshift rafts or boats (the horses swim, after all) but it will get rather complicated with tanks or other heavy weaponry of modern age. Do we need a flag to indicate if the unit is embarkable from shore and does not need a port?

Nope.

Modern Units no longer need ports to make a successful landing.

I could get in to technicalities with modern Amphibious Assault Ships and what not, but all you need to do is look at the Normandy landing in WW2. They landed tanks, trucks, jeeps, halftracks, and over 100,000 men on a beach in France (in one day). Even today, we have these things called Air-cushioned landing craft, that can land an Abrams tank at any given beach in the world.

Second, the very idea that an army does not need a fleet to get off a coast is ridiculous. For instance, Napoleonic army was trapped in Egypt because Nelson destroyed the transports.

Again, we look to WW2. That whole incident at Dunkirk. If you don't know what I'm talking about look it up. Unlike Napoleon in Egypt, the British held control of the English Channel allowing their army at Dunkirk to escape in whatever boats they could find.

Third, it is rather unrealistic that units can be disembarked on top of the hills to receive instant defense bonus.

I don't think so. It's been done before. Again we look to WW2. If you ever played Call of Duty 2, you know it can be done. And if you look at the Invasions of Iwo Jima and Okinawa in the Pacific, both of these landings happened on a large slope or hill terrain (respectively) and both times US Marine forces were able to repel a couter-attack from their landing zones.

Fourth, tanks can parachute. No version of Civ has featured this, has it?

Yep, you can drop a tank out of an Airplane, but you can't airdrop a tank with people in it.
Capital Ships also can have a marine detachment on them, and Nuclear Bombs spread fallout according to the wind patterns, and Roads don't discriminate between who is using them, and National Leaders tend to die once in a while, but no Civ has had these features yet, have they? Why would it matter to add a perfectly superfluous feature to a Civ game?

TL,DR:Civ 5 handles Landing Operations perfectly. If you don't like how it is now, mod it later.

 

[Kriku]

Modern Units no longer need ports to make a successful landing.

I meant embarking, not landing.

You might be right about Dunkirk. However, could it be described as rushbuilding the boats?

Yep, you can drop a tank out of an Airplane, but you can't airdrop a tank with people in it.

At least the Soviets did to my best knowledge.

 

[mjs0]

At least the Soviets did to my best knowledge.

They did it with returning astronauts...so why not with tanks!

 

[Ahriman]

They did it with returning astronauts...so why not with tanks!

Unfortunately, the space capsule was not battle-ready after landing, the lasers were bent out of shape by the impact and the heat melted the cannon barrel.

 

[Kilroywashere]

I meant embarking, not landing.

Hence, Amphibious Assault Ships and Landing Craft.
And, please at least look at the articles before commenting on them, this time.

You might be right about Dunkirk. However, could it be described as rushbuilding the boats?

No, it specifically can't.
The Dunkirk Evacuation used "little ships" to ferry men and equipment back across the English Channel. These were private vessels temporarily re-purposed for the evacuation; they were not government-built ships rushed into production. That was the whole point behind the "Dunkirk Spirit".

At least the Soviets did to my best knowledge.

What part about Not with people in it do you not understand?

You are thinking of a BMD-1 a Russian-built Infantry fighting vehicle, that can be airdropped with a driver and gunner in it. Sadly, the BMD needs a crew of 4, so it's not even an effective IFV immediately after being airdropped.
Please Note: The BMD is not a Main Battle Tank, which you can't airdrop anyway (read: It is a physical impossibility for a Main Battle Tank to be parachuted from an aircraft, the physics of air resistance and tension strength don't allow for parachutes to work with a load over 50 tons) Only light tanks like the M551 Sheridan are air-drop capable, and even then, it's extremely risky. Unfortunately, there is no Light Tank Unit in Civ (only mods).


I believe this post resolves your original questions, and unless, you have some evidence to refute your claims, I suggest informing the moderator to close this thread.

 

[Ahriman]

Of course, Dunkirk doesn't quite work as an example, because they had to leave all their equipment behind.
This wasn't quite infantry and armor units embarking; it was the tattered remnants of these units.

It also wouldn't have been possible if they'd actually had to cross an ocean, rather than just making a quick trip across the Channel. And it worked only because it was:
a) Near home
b) Home was a maritime nation with lots of small private sector boats
c) Short distance allowed multiple trips for many vessels.

Its not like the Brits could have easily pulled together a similarly massive evacuation of a big army from Sicily to North Africa, or across the Atlantic.

[Note that I think the new embarkation system is fine; but I support it for being good gameplay, not because I think its particularly realistic. Its fun to abstract away annoying MM busywork that the AI doesn't use well.]

 

[Kilroywashere]

Its not like the Brits could have easily pulled together a similarly massive evacuation of a big army from Sicily to North Africa

Yeah, but the Germans did that two years later. Only the other way around.

 

[Ahriman]

Yeah, but the Germans did that two years later. Only the other way around.

With much more in terms of actual military transport ships, and nearby Italy.

And from a port.

It wasn't a civilian effort, done off a beach.

 

[Kriku]

I meant embarking, not landing.

Hence, Amphibious Assault Ships and Landing Craft.
And, please at least look at the articles before commenting on them, this time.

Sorry, but I fail to understand. As I said, I meant getting on to the ship (embarking). If I have missed something, please tell me what it is. As far as I know, the troops landed in Normandia did and had to embark in ports. Isn't that true?

The Dunkirk Evacuation used "little ships" to ferry men and equipment back across the English Channel.

All right, I see your point. However, heavy equipment like tanks, artillery and vehicles were not shipped that way but left behind, true?

What part about Not with people in it do you not understand?

Dear Sir, I understand you fairly well. You have confirmed yourself that battle machines were airdropped with people in them. It might well be that "tank" was not a correct term from my part and these were in fact infantry vehicles and soviets have never airdropped light tanks with people in them but I would like to look it up.

It might well be that there is a need for an air-drop capable light tank unit in Civ. I guess that the crew could be airdropped separately? In that case the fact that they do not sit inside the vehicles would make no difference from the point of view of the gameplay.

I believe this post resolves your original questions, and unless, you have some evidence to refute your claims, I suggest informing the moderator to close this thread.

Even if you were right about the modern warfare, the questions remain about the past.

 

[Kriku]

BTW, the Dunkirk operation was an evacuation but in Civ5, you can order battle units to sail across a sea by their own and attack your enemy. The men evacuated from Dunkirk were not a battle-ready formation. The Dunkirk example does not prove your point at all.

 

[Drawmeus]

All I can say in response to this - because it's clear there's an irreconcilable difference of opinion here - is thank goodness the game designers don't agree that "a good game is a realistic game".

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The idea is that ANY civ has transports scattered around the world, at least as far as their units go. and those Transports are effectively free because they have 0 defense.