Landing operations - realistic or not?

[Scramble]

I am looking forward to the concept of embarkment because it will make having a navy that much more important. If you are maintaining a choke point... a peninsula or a straight of land or something, you are able to hold a key piece of land like that with very few units and taking advantage of the terrain...
Now if ground units can just run into the ocean and go around such key locations, it will be important to maintain naval control of the area to prevent such actions. I imagine that you won't be able to embark on ocean and disembark back onto the land in the same turn, meaning that attempting to sail around a defended position will leave your units extremely vulnerable for one turn.

 

[CyberChrist]

Also, as mentioned in another thread, you would have to load each unit one at a time from each port, which would take too long when you're at war. Even with two close ports, it would take a while for a reasonable army to embark.

This is exactly how it has worked in the previous 4 incarnations of Civ though.

Imo then doing away with the need the plan ahead if you want to take an army across water is just more dumbification and add to the strength of my growing doubts that the AI will not be as hot as they have otherwise proclaimed that it would be.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

This is exactly how it has worked in the previous 4 incarnations of Civ though.

Imo then doing away with the need the plan ahead if you want to take an army across water is just more dumbification and add to the strength of my growing doubts that the AI will not be as hot as they have otherwise proclaimed that it would be.

In the previous 4 incarnations, units could stack, and you were expected to have a lot of units.

In civ 5 the 1upt, and limited total units means that producing a transport unit is pointless micromanagement.

If you want to invade someone by sea, you still need to either

1. build a fleet to defend your transports
2. hope the enemy does not have a fleet near your transports
3. be Songhai

1+3 require planning ahead, 2 means the defender also has to plan ahead.

 

[migkillertwo]

This is exactly how it has worked in the previous 4 incarnations of Civ though.

Imo then doing away with the need the plan ahead if you want to take an army across water is just more dumbification and add to the strength of my growing doubts that the AI will not be as hot as they have otherwise proclaimed that it would be.

but think about how much micromanagement amphibious operations would require. I mean, embarking units onto transports would be difficult enough. Think about how hard it would be to land those units. You'd have to land your units, then move your transports to the side to get the second wave, and that's if you're attacking a perfectly straight shoreline. If you're attacking a harbour, forget it! 1upt + transports would be absolute micromanagement hell.

 

[Scaramanga]

The idea is that ANY civ has transports scattered around the world, at least as far as their units go. and those Transports are effectively free because they have 0 defense.

Agree. The games assumes that there are a multitude of vessels traversing the coasts for trade, it makes sense that there would be some available for military purposes. Although embarking from any tile, especially a hill, seems like it would be difficult in real life .

 

[ilikepies]

Second, the very idea that an army does not need a fleet to get off a coast is ridiculous. For instance, Napoleonic army was trapped in Egypt because Nelson destroyed the transports.

Third, it is rather unrealistic that units can be disembarked on top of the hills to receive instant defense bonus.

Fourth, tanks can parachute. No version of Civ has featured this, has it?

If you want to be Nelson, you can just put ships off the coast and if they try to escape you shoot the embarked units.

It is possible for an efficient operation to disembark units and storm a hill. If you want to block people from invading, put units on the coast. You'll be able to see them coming.

Wait... tanks can parachute? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, unless the tanks explode in a massive fireball and do damage when they hit the ground.. but even then, how do you get them up there... ?

 

[CyberChrist]

In the previous 4 incarnations, units could stack, and you were expected to have a lot of units.

In civ 5 the 1upt, and limited total units means that producing a transport unit is pointless micromanagement.

Indeed, you hit the actual problem here spot on ... namely the horrible choice of switching to a 1upt system (and yes the SoD problem had to be dealt with, but the 1upt is the worst possible solution on several levels).

 

[Alki]

how do you get them up there... ?

A catapult. A really big catapult. or a plane. One of the two.

What a stupid question.

 

[imperialman]

Only very special, ultralight "tanks" can parachute. You can't airdrop a MBT. In fact, most EU countries don't even have transports that could lift them (the UK for instance has only 4 transports big enough to lift a single MBT, Germany none)

7 as of December 2010, but you're right, no one parachutes tanks. Ships are how most countries move them in large numbers.

 

[imperialman]

I hate to burst anyone's bubble but with dedicated transports, wouldn't unloading the ships properly be tricky/impossible due to 1UPT?

 

[imperialman]

Well, yes, but the Soviets did. Russia most probably does.

Russia isn't an EU country though.

 

[SalmonSoil]

Indeed, you hit the actual problem here spot on ... namely the horrible choice of switching to a 1upt system (and yes the SoD problem had to be dealt with, but the 1upt is the worst possible solution on several levels).

(Almost) Everyone else loves 1upt. I for one think that it is the best thing happening in ciV.

 

[migkillertwo]

If you want to be Nelson, you can just put ships off the coast and if they try to escape you shoot the embarked units.

It is possible for an efficient operation to disembark units and storm a hill. If you want to block people from invading, put units on the coast. You'll be able to see them coming.

Wait... tanks can parachute? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, unless the tanks explode in a massive fireball and do damage when they hit the ground.. but even then, how do you get them up there... ?

Well I dont know if this is true, but is it really so absurd that you could airlift tanks onto a battlefield?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6D_JEMUZqo

 

[CyberChrist]

(Almost) Everyone else loves 1upt. I for one think that it is the best thing happening in ciV.

Lol, are you basing that on the enthusiatic polls and posts in this particular part of the forum? The majority of the people that stay around to read these threads (let alone post and poll anything in them) are fans of the many changes and reductions used in ciV.

And lets just wait and see how many of those that will fall out of love after they have actually tried playing ciV for a while - with all the annoyances and limitations that comes with a 1upt.

Personally then I wouldn't have minded the 1upt as a (novelty) option in the game, but leaving out support for multiple units per tile altogether is a deal breaker for me and imo it deviates too much from the tried and tested civilization receipe to even make ciV a true civilization game.

 

[deanej]

Not to mention that most of those people only love it because it's in civ5 and therefore new. Had it been posted as a suggestion before civ5 announced it, most of those people who "love" 1upt would be saying that it's the worst idea ever.

 

[gunter]

I didn't understand how now it works. Are units teleported to the destination in 1 turn or each single unit will become amphibius and will act as a single " transport " ? In this case which movement therefore stats does it have ?

 

[stealth_nsk]

I didn't understand how now it works. Are units teleported to the destination in 1 turn or each single unit will become amphibius and will act as a single " transport " ? In this case which movement therefore stats does it have ?

Each unit could convert itself to transport on the coast. Not sure about moves, assume it's some fixed value for all units.

 

[deanej]

I didn't understand how now it works. Are units teleported to the destination in 1 turn or each single unit will become amphibius and will act as a single " transport " ? In this case which movement therefore stats does it have ?

They just transmorgify into a transport. Funny how people don't complain about it but they will complain about a cavalry upgrading to a gunship. Not to mention that water is no longer a barrier to movement and therefore meaningless.

 

[Ahriman]

They just transmorgify into a transport. Funny how people don't complain about it but they will complain about a cavalry upgrading to a gunship.

Because they aren't transmogrifying, they're being loaded onto ships, its just that these ships are abstracted away (in the same way that the ships, wagons, cars and trucks that operate your trade routes are abstracted away).

Not to mention that water is no longer a barrier to movement

Historically, water wasn't a barrier to movement. It was much easier to move over water than over land.

And water isn't meaningless, because units in the water are helpless. You have to have a navy to accompany your transports, or they are just easy meat.

 

[deanej]

Because they aren't transmogrifying, they're being loaded onto ships, its just that these ships are abstracted away (in the same way that the ships, wagons, cars and trucks that operate your trade routes are abstracted away).

Just like the cavalry riders were being retrained to drive helicopters, but that didn't stop people from complaining. What's stopping people this time? The fact that it's the same way in Panzer General? Panzer General is not civ.