Large Map and New Civilizations are now playable

[a pen-dragon]

That makes sense. Unfortunately there’s no guarantee the Muslims will come to see you, and Burma is in your path to go see them. Maybe I should have declared war to get my galley past them?

Actually they should sign open borders at pleased. A Gold gift of about 50-100 the turn you meet them should be enough to make them pleased. Even if afterwards they drop back to cautious that will not matter because, your galley will have passed them and they will not immediately (if ever?) cancel open borders.
IMHO paying 100 gold is cheaper than declaring one war, considering the diplo.

 

[AOS9001]

Actually they should sign open borders at pleased. A Gold gift of about 50-100 the turn you meet them should be enough to make them pleased. Even if afterwards they drop back to cautious that will not matter because, your galley will have passed them and they will not immediately (if ever?) cancel open borders.
IMHO paying 100 gold is cheaper than declaring one war, considering the diplo.

I gave them the usual 100 gold but they still had that -2 from the very first moment I met them. So it was a net +2 opinion.

 

[banzay13]

I gave them the usual 100 gold but they still had that -2 from the very first moment I met them. So it was a net +2 opinion.

Use spy then. To sneak in Muslims countries

 

[lethrgy]

booted up an england in dev version for the first time and noticed that the Ontario area doesnt count as "North America" for the UHV. not sure if its been pointed out before but just a small thing i noticed

 

[DanLT3]

Englands starting situation is pathetic in 1.18 compared to France and Holy Roman.

 

[char81]

Englands starting situation is pathetic in 1.18 compared to France and Holy Roman.

Agreed. You basically have a single decent city compared to France’s 4 or 5 and the HRE’s 3-4. I tried this on emperor and was hopelessly behind techwise. I might try monarch next though.

 

[banzay13]

Agreed. You basically have a single decent city compared to France’s 4 or 5 and the HRE’s 3-4. I tried this on emperor and was hopelessly behind techwise. I might try monarch next though.

On monarch you also need to bubble a lot.

 

[char81]

On monarch you also need to bubble a lot.

Are you finding that China and Arabia are extremely ahead on Monarch? I had China discover scientific method in like 950.

 

[CivEnthusiast]

I agree that the Rus civilization should not continue to exist during the late medieval and early modern period, and only return at the earliest in the 19th century (I think the respawn interval already reflects this), in most games.

The ideal scenario is that they are destroyed or weakened into collapse by the Mongols, but that is not something you can guarantee in every game. I think it is also a fine scenario if the Rus get attacked and eventually conquered by Russia. After all, the Rus civilization does not just represent the Kievan polity but any pre-Muscovite Russian polity, and e.g. states like Novgorod survived the Mongol invasion and co-existed with Muscovy for a while before being eventually conquered. An alternate history where these states hold out and do not get subsumed by Muscovite Russia is not that far fetched to me to be totally out of the question. Either way Russia will naturally eclipse this civilization due to its modifiers and expansion potential.

To be entirely clear, when I talk about "what should happen" I am talking about what should occur in the majority of the games played and what the outside influences (stability maps, modifiers etc.) should make more likely. It does not mean that the opposite of "what should happen" should never happen, and I believe that the game would be worse off if it never happened, because part of the appeal of the game is agency and seeing different things occur based on the convergence of choices.

I definitely do not think a game where Rus are prescribed to collapse at a predetermined date because now the Russian civ is here makes for a fun playing experience, neither as the Rus, nor the Russians, nor any other civilization for that matter. And I also do not think it would be more historical, not just because it would be historically inaccurate (independent Rus states continued to coexist with Muscovy before being gradually absorbed into neighbouring states), but also because the understanding of history I care about and want to promote is not about set sequences of historically correct events but the historical forces of cause and effect.

Finally, and I think I made this clear when I initially shared it, what you are currently looking at is a development version and is therefore inherently incomplete. So if something looks off to you it is more likely that it is that way because I have not yet invested effort into addressing it, instead of assuming that I made it that way on purpose. That is not to say you shouldn't ask about it or bring it up as a problem. However there is a difference in pointing out an issue or a discrepancy with your expectation, and essentially interrogating me about why things are this way considering I am unaware of or ignoring X Y and Z historical facts.

If you see me bristle at feedback framed in this way, it is often because it seems either at odds with the overall design philosophy of the mod (i.e. an overly scripted view of what makes "correct history") or because it assumes that everything that happens in the mod happens as an intentional act on my part (again, properly due to the wrong assumption that my part is to script the right things to happen, rather than design and fine tune a complex system).

You might know a lot about Russian history and care a lot about Russian history and notice when things are off and want them to be improved. Me too. But you have to be aware that there are 40+ civilizations in this game while you are worried about Russia I have ten other people in my ear asking the same for Portugal and Brazil and Egypt and so on. Not to mention that I have to care about civilizations that nobody is actively bothering me about as well. And fix bugs. And so on. My time is fundamentally limited and has to be spread across a billion different concerns and things that I want or need to do and I cannot do all of them with the level of detail and completeness that you expect for the one thing you care about.

And none of this is your problem. But I think you will find that our conversations are going to be more productive if you keep that in mind.

Forgive me for going all the way back to this to comment, just wanted to add that Grand Duchy of Lithuania was practically substituting Ruthenia after taking over most of modern day Belarusian and Ukrainian territories. It is also at times referred to as "Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia". Not to be confused with "Kingdom of Ruthenia" which Galicia-Volhynia was. In case if Ruthenia continues to exist well after Muscovy's spawn, Ruthenia could technically remain as Grand Duchy of Lithuania/Ruthenia until it gets absorbed by either Poland or Russia. It may also have an additional potential respawn date time at around 1648 as a Hetmanate in case if its Grand Duchy form gets destroyed beforehand, that is in addition to the XIX Century respawn date.

Also as we speak of the respawn dates, once more willing to suggest to do the same to Turks and also make them respawnable in Modern Era game as Turkestan/Bukhara/Uzbekistan/Kazakhstan, any of those Central Asian nations. Currently their "respawnability" stops at 1500 AD from what I saw in the scripts, with their chronologically "latest" leader remaining Tamerlane. Once they get destroyed after that particular date, they never respawn again.

 

[roofitavio]

First game as Carthage, Monarch/Epic. Got Religious victory on accident and was just an inch away from getting the last UHV victory condition (4% away from 50% explored and think I would have gotten it in a few more turns). With another game I can probably win UHV, just need to build monuments/libraries instead of pagan temples and get settlers up quicker to pass through the capes of Africa.

Just need two little colonies, also realized late that the African Great Lakes inland count as the African Coast.

Spoiler route for capes :

Alternatively could build the Suez Canal, this was my original plan after I got lucky enough to have Jerusalem flip to me, unfortunately Alexander put a stop to that

Spoiler canal route :

Alexander's army in the levant was huge, ~15 catapults, ~30 swordsmen, ~10 companions. Almost questioned if he was a tad overtuned, but idk. Either way, fortunately the idiot left his homeland vulnerable so my vassalized Rome and I could conquer Athens and Sparta and cause him to collapse.

Absolutely loved 1.18. It feels much more like the Mediterranean Iron Age, no longer rushed and cramped. The progression from Phoenicia to Carthage feels natural. The UHVs rely more on settlement and exploration than gimmicky exploits with Great Merchants.

Difficultywise, I consider myself a sucky-average player, I can complete several easier UHVs with a slight amount of reloading when necessary. I felt this was a comfortable challenge where I need to plan ahead but don't necessarily need to stress every single turn, kinda like the Vikings/Tamils. Personally this is the difficulty level I enjoy.

 

[CivEnthusiast]

Just had a thought, now with the expanded map the Baltic area on the map feels rather empty throughout the Middle Ages. Besides there being the "Baltic" Barbarian units spawning from time to time and attacking either Ruthenia or Poland, could there potentially be Prussia's spawn as Livonian/Teutonic Order starting with 1200/1228 AD? And then its capital shifts to Berlin by 1700 AD, in a fashion similar to how HRE transition from being HRE to an Austrian Empire with the capital moving to Vienna. But then that also makes me question how would such Prussia acquire Berlin by 1700 AD if it's no longer through flipping upon spawn.

 

[TsimTsigal]

Just had a thought, now with the expanded map the Baltic area on the map feels rather empty throughout the Middle Ages. Besides there being the "Baltic" Barbarian units spawning from time to time and attacking either Ruthenia or Poland, could there potentially be Prussia's spawn as Livonian/Teutonic Order starting with 1200/1228 AD? And then its capital shifts to Berlin by 1700 AD, in a fashion similar to how HRE transition from being HRE to an Austrian Empire with the capital moving to Vienna. But then that also makes me question how would such Prussia acquire Berlin by 1700 AD if it's no longer through flipping upon spawn.

It's mostly due to the Vikings being catatonic in 1.18 for some reason.

 

[AOS9001]

Notes on some 600 AD casual runs with the new civics on regent/normal:

• European tech snowballing has drastically been reduced (maybe a little too much), England and France aren't getting into the colonial game until the later 1600s
• Playing as Spain or Portugal, it's noticeable how far I get ahead of the more northern Europeans (I know it's regent difficulty but even then I would be competing with the other Euros for prime colony spots in the 1500s)
• AI Spain remains mostly pathetic, reluctant to explore and rarely conquering Cordoba. If they do manage to start an empire they collapse to their core within ~150 years. I think Spain's core now being smaller than 1.17 with the map being much larger than 1.17 is one of the primary culprits for this mediocre behavior. (Colonialism being locked behind so many techs compared to when they start their conquests also hurts. Come to think of it, Spain has no way to take native slaves during its conquest of the New World, which will mostly happen before the player discovers geography. Inb4 I'm playing Spain wrong, I like painting the map gold)
• Bureaucracy is crazy strong for Portugal and the Netherlands, like even I think it might need a nerf strong. I want to try playing Russia before I commit to that opinion though, since Portugal's game is basically over by the time you get that civic.
• Britain and France are still collapsing after getting empires halfway formed
• France's starting situation seems to have taken a turn for the worst, they're losing cities to the Norse and generally remaining behind everyone else in most of the games I ran today

I also did a few Brazil starts on the 1700 scenario - yep, Britain still has Railroad every time I spawn in, so the new civics have not slowed them down in the late game.

 

[DanLT3]

The automatic (AI) tile choice for cities seems bugged in 1.18.
Very often tiles with cottages are neglected. Even when they have the same yield as a sea square.
It can also happen then even a worse commerse tile gets picked than a cottage.
This also affects the human player as when tiles gets blocked and unblocked or cities grows, the lesser good tiles are picked.
For example see attached image of the English city of London.

 

[Leoreth]

I am aware and will look at this soon. More saves might help.

 

[DanLT3]

I have also noticed during gameplay that the AI likes to suicide its stacked units in 1.18.
Even if heavily fortified in a city, it attacks units nearby and loose more then 50% of the units this way, even defensive units are used this way.
It may not even kill a single unit.
THis is especially noticeable when hitting a newly spawned (as soon a the spawn protection ends) civ like Portugal.
Savegame where I just declared war on Portugal attached.

 

[DanLT3]

I am aware and will look at this soon. More saves might help.

Savegame attached where when unit moves back to Beumont and city becomes happy again, the sea tile gets picked instead of the cottage with 7 gold.
Also when the unit moved out of the city prior the cottage tile was the first one to go.

 

[banzay13]

Notes on some 600 AD casual runs with the new civics on regent/normal:

• European tech snowballing has drastically been reduced (maybe a little too much), England and France aren't getting into the colonial game until the later 1600s
• Playing as Spain or Portugal, it's noticeable how far I get ahead of the more northern Europeans (I know it's regent difficulty but even then I would be competing with the other Euros for prime colony spots in the 1500s)
• AI Spain remains mostly pathetic, reluctant to explore and rarely conquering Cordoba. If they do manage to start an empire they collapse to their core within ~150 years. I think Spain's core now being smaller than 1.17 with the map being much larger than 1.17 is one of the primary culprits for this mediocre behavior. (Colonialism being locked behind so many techs compared to when they start their conquests also hurts. Come to think of it, Spain has no way to take native slaves during its conquest of the New World, which will mostly happen before the player discovers geography. Inb4 I'm playing Spain wrong, I like painting the map gold)
• Bureaucracy is crazy strong for Portugal and the Netherlands, like even I think it might need a nerf strong. I want to try playing Russia before I commit to that opinion though, since Portugal's game is basically over by the time you get that civic.
• Britain and France are still collapsing after getting empires halfway formed
• France's starting situation seems to have taken a turn for the worst, they're losing cities to the Norse and generally remaining behind everyone else in most of the games I ran today

I also did a few Brazil starts on the 1700 scenario - yep, Britain still has Railroad every time I spawn in, so the new civics have not slowed them down in the late game.

Can confirm. With new civics Europe develop much slower (Monarch/Epic), most of new spawn civs more advance in Tech. Played with England - even Russia had more tech at spawn, than i got by date)))
But later Europe take off. I think its coz Manorialism - less workers to improve and slow grow of cites. And less commerce from Elective

 

[banzay13]

England game for UHV 1.18 with new civics very nice. You don't have time to relax (Monarch/Epic), you need bubble a lot of Renaissance Tech, or you lose this UHV. Even with slow Europe - where a lot of competitors on map for 8 Renaissance Tech - Japan (they now very very good with Tech), Mughal, Arabia, Korea and so on.
Small Core is problem. Even with one London, as core city, it's hard to not OE (AI will fail, for sure). Big map - more cites - more OE. Good new - Monarchy, UP and Colonialism - almost no maintance for cites, as in 1.17
Getting 25 level 3 naval units is pain, as usual (with Colonialism and Dry Dock you can build level 3 units), i lost a lot of lev3 Frigate in wars, so i was short with needet fleet. Build, build Steamships, as they most chip. Also you can use GG if have some lev1-2 units to promote to lev3.
Conquering Africa now fun. I had strong Arabia in Egypt (they had a bit bigger army, then my, and in one place), but got luck with event and got 9 Tanks (I lost all of them). But England production very good, and you have big fleet - so you can build and bring reinforcement from any point of your Empire). Can be good idea - take Athen before Turkey (it don't flip now) - so you can build some army for Middle East in ME and take Jerusalem (in first run i did so) and Maybe Egypt then (depend of Arabia, Turks, Mongols, Ottomans and so on). UPD. Before war, with OB i pre-build railroad in Arabian's Egypt
Since i vassalized Mughals (if not - i probably could lost India, with much more cites Mughals had bigger army) i was short cites in Asia (Jerusalem also count as Asia btw) - so i took one independent city in Indochina and take one in China (as they was weak). At first my plan was take Bugan Kindom (all in historical area) - but they was too strong for my Colonial corps (the main forces were preparing for war with Arabia)
Also, coz of many wars and OE i got rebellion in Mexico and lost some cites there, and look like Canada also will be lost (will born)

Summary - very interesting game now with England. I wonder how to do all this, when fast research fill be fixed.

UPD. About civics. Before 1 UHV I used Monarchy, Theocracy, Colonialism, Manorialism, and Regulated trade (just didn't have time to switch, and they fine). Then switched to Individualism and Free Enterprise until victory.
UPD2. America started as Secular, but now running Syncretism and Slavery (probable coz i build some slave mines and plantation), so theu now Confederate state of America))). And also look like United Mexican states will beat them (they at War). The War of the North and the South in a new reading

Spoiler Top 5 cites :

 

[banzay13]

Are you finding that China and Arabia are extremely ahead on Monarch? I had China discover scientific method in like 950.

In all my games (with different civs, 3000BC/600AD) in 1.18 i never saw strong China. Usually they collapse just before or few turns after Mongols spawn