I agree that the Rus civilization should not continue to exist during the late medieval and early modern period, and only return at the earliest in the 19th century (I think the respawn interval already reflects this), in most games.
Finally, and I think I made this clear when I initially shared it, what you are currently looking at is a development version and is therefore inherently incomplete. So if something looks off to you it is more likely that it is that way because I have not yet invested effort into addressing it, instead of assuming that I made it that way on purpose. That is not to say you shouldn't ask about it or bring it up as a problem. However there is a difference in pointing out an issue or a discrepancy with your expectation, and essentially interrogating me about why things are this way considering I am unaware of or ignoring X Y and Z historical facts.
If you see me bristle at feedback framed in this way, it is often because it seems either at odds with the overall design philosophy of the mod (i.e. an overly scripted view of what makes "correct history") or because it assumes that everything that happens in the mod happens as an intentional act on my part (again, properly due to the wrong assumption that my part is to script the right things to happen, rather than design and fine tune a complex system).
You might know a lot about Russian history and care a lot about Russian history and notice when things are off and want them to be improved. Me too. But you have to be aware that there are 40+ civilizations in this game while you are worried about Russia I have ten other people in my ear asking the same for Portugal and Brazil and Egypt and so on. Not to mention that I have to care about civilizations that nobody is actively bothering me about as well. And fix bugs. And so on. My time is fundamentally limited and has to be spread across a billion different concerns and things that I want or need to do and I cannot do all of them with the level of detail and completeness that you expect for the one thing you care about.
And none of this is your problem. But I think you will find that our conversations are going to be more productive if you keep that in mind.
I understand everything you are saying. I raised this question largely in order to understand - what is implemented is, in your understanding, the norm? And, if so, why?
This was not implied by the interrogation. This is not the first time that a language barrier has prevented me from conveying to you what I really mean. Thanks for the very detailed answer though.
I noticed Islam is rarely spreading to Indonesia in my AD 600 games, I did a Java test run... not a single city got Islam by 1500. Maybe I need to actually go conquer Sumatra for that to trigger?
Spoiler:
Also, check it out, Spain not being pathetic for once! Notice how the Moors only have Marrakesh and no other cities in supercharged North Africa? I think I'm seeing a pattern here.
Won with Java in 1492. It's a cozy (if a little frantic at the start) game. I LOVE the unique power - what a great way to represent Java and Sumatra's rich volcanic soil! The first UU is useful and has a brief moment of glory. I never got to use the bombard UU, the game was over before I even researched gunpowder. The unique building is really useful too, Indonesia doesn't have much production so the +2 and the engineer slot are really welcome and were critical to winning the UHV. Great unique power, great unique building, one out of two unique units are really useful for your game... It just feels good to play. I really liked Java, a lot more than I was expecting. Indonesia was a really boring civ for me to play in 1.17, I don't think I ever finished a game with them. Java on the other hand has a lot of potential for a fun and challenging experience.
Use advanced start to put your UB in the capital and run another engineer, build a forge to run another engineer
Rush Malays immediately with your swordsman UU before they can spam elephants, use citizenship to buy them. Turn Palembang into a settler factory
Turn research all the way down once you get politics and have built arenas for happiness
Use GE to rush one wonder, use the whip to rush the other in your core with your huge city population
Turn on focus food and cruise control to a happy population of 75
Worldbuilder an Islamic missionary into North Sumatra in 1400 (the absolute latest, most conservative estimate for when Islam arrived in Indonesia) because Islam won't spread to you otherwise
Whip mosques, whip grand mosques, use great engineers as needed from your delicious UB. I don't think my choosing of 1400 for Islam's arrival in this civ would work for normal speed; like I said, I won in 1492, which is about 3 turns from the deadline
Victory:
Spoiler:
That western Borneo city almost cost me the game, I had to use my spare great engineer there to finish the mosque and whip my capital to half its population.
My notes not relating to winning:
The bombard, as mentioned, was useless for me. Game ended before I got it. Maybe third UHV can be extended to a later date and made (even) more challenging so that it has some relevance?
If Japan goes for Borobudur, you're boned. There's nothing you can do to beat them to it. Sometimes they'll have already built it before you spawn, or are 5 turns from finishing when you spawn. I suggest having a banana or spices required, or Hinduism required in the city, to build Borobudur so Japan isn't constantly sniping it.
Borobudur has amazing synergy with your UP, and having Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist temples and cathedrals in your core cities lets you run so many priests with those extra . It didn't occur to me at the time use a great prophet's great mission ability to spread Islam without needing so many missionaries, but that's definitely a viable strategy and would have saved me time. Unfortunately the Muslim temple priest slots only come into play after you win. I kept playing and built a huge army of arquebusiers and UU bombards, waiting for the Dutch to arrive, but...
Spoiler:
The Duke of Alba had other ideas!
Pramban, on the other hand, didn't really do anything. +1 on islands... Your capital has access to 1 island, Palembang has access to 2 islands, Bedulu on the east side of Java has access to 3 islands if you steal one from the capital. +3 for building a world wonder seems underwhelming to me. The great engineer points came in handy for rushing the grand mosques, at least.
Java's tech modifiers feel brutal, even for a Southeast Asian civ. I suppose it has to be this way because Indonesia is such a rich and fertile region. And they have no natural predators before the Trading Company conquerors and privateer barbs, so maybe it's deserved.
I think Java could easily be modified into a civ with a longer playing time. The big happy population is a little too easy, maybe make the grand mosques goal the second UHV goal, and have the third goal be about resisting your colonizers and then throwing them out? The Indonesians (collectively, as many different little sultanates and kingdoms) fought the Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, British, and eventually the Japanese.
It would be nice if there was another resource that spawned on Timor. With only that incense on it, it feels rather barren compared to the rest of Indonesia.
It would also be nice if there was some on-shore oil in Sumatra. These oil fields were a major target (along with the Palembang refinery) of the Japanese in WW2. Indonesia isn't the oil produce it was in the 20th century anymore, but DOC only touches the first fifth of the 21st century.
Islam's failure to spread naturally kills the UHV. Much like the Rus converting to Orthodoxy, I think this event needs to be scripted in, otherwise you can't win. I tried converting to Buddhism to get Burma to give me open borders so I could go establish trade routes with the Arabs and Turks, but they refused. If Islam doesn't magically appear in your cities, it's game over. Definitely too much luck for a UHV to rely on.
Finally, I noticed only a small portion of western New Guinea is historical territory. The rest is foreign area. This can only mean one thing: Leoreth is a Free Papua Movement agent injecting his politics into a video game!
Agree with what you said about 1.17 Indonesia, it's the only civ I never played to win its UHV. After two requirements it'd take forever to make it to 1940.
I also love it's not the bunch of worthless islands it was anymore, they can both be productive and populated.
Islam's failure to spread naturally kills the UHV. Much like the Rus converting to Orthodoxy, I think this event needs to be scripted in, otherwise you can't win. I tried converting to Buddhism to get Burma to give me open borders so I could go establish trade routes with the Arabs and Turks, but they refused. If Islam doesn't magically appear in your cities, it's game over. Definitely too much luck for a UHV to rely on.
I had open borders with the Ottomans in the 1300s (thanks to a passing caravel) but I lost contact with them soon after since Burma wouldn't let my galley through to go meet the Mughals. They had a -2 opinion of "Past events have proved your bad nature to us" the moment I met them. I was Buddhist from ~1280 to the end of the UHV and I never got a single +1 "We care for brothers and sisters of the faith" from them.
Edit: if it matters, I believe the Ottomans were vassals of the Mongols at the time.
My first time posting here after lurking for a long time. I was very excited for the new map and have been playing it when I can since it came out.
Two things I noticed:
1. This really relates to the discussion about America's UP and happiness issues, but maybe the UP should be changed to give additional happiness for every resource improved instead of adding turns onto the current bonus? While unhappiness from immigration is somewhat fitting for much (if not all) of American history, it seems the intent of the bonus is to keep happiness equal to the population gain, when it doesn't do that at the moment.
2. Played as Moors trying to sneak in a UHV while they're strong, and I've had an issue my last two games where Spain's 3rd city (Alicante) was auto-razed on their collapse, meaning I had to wait for the Portuguese. In the first game I didn't DOW immediately (and didn't save close to it), so I couldn't conquer a third Iberian city before the first UHV ran out. In the second game I prepared myself, saved near their spawn just in case, but I was only given an option for peace, meaning I literally couldn't achieve the 1st goal. Perhaps Spain could be given stronger weight to settle Leon/Santiago in the northwest?
Overall I'm really enjoying the huge increase in space and resources. Cities don't feel as clustered, and cities that were previously resource poor are now able to produce (looking at you, North Africa). I'm going to try a new civ for the first time next - gonna go after the Kushans. Thanks for your work Leoreth!
1. This really relates to the discussion about America's UP and happiness issues, but maybe the UP should be changed to give additional happiness for every resource improved instead of adding turns onto the current bonus? While unhappiness from immigration is somewhat fitting for much (if not all) of American history, it seems the intent of the bonus is to keep happiness equal to the population gain, when it doesn't do that at the moment.
Yeah, this is something I want to try. Currently this is not possible because the temporary happiness mechanic is limited to a flat +1 happiness from all sources, and adding to it only adds to the durations as you are saying.
I did not want to get into that as I was changing the UP, but in my opinion this should be changed so that the happiness scales with the time left, i.e. +1 with 10 turns left, +2 with 20 turns left etc. That is already how the corresponding unhappiness rules work so it would only make sense.
I don't know if that fully addresses the happiness situation in America but it would definitely make the UP feel a lot less counterproductive.
Hello,
Big thanks for carry this project to Leoreth.
I've just started game by random nation and it happend to be Dravidans on Marathon and I think UHV 3 is to correct - I think it shouldn't scale to 75 population in capital. I don't know yet if other should scale - 7500 culture, 15k gold in 600 AD and 22500 from trade could be too much, but for UHV 3 I am almost sure it is broken.
That makes sense. Unfortunately there’s no guarantee the Muslims will come to see you, and Burma is in your path to go see them. Maybe I should have declared war to get my galley past them?
That makes sense. Unfortunately there’s no guarantee the Muslims will come to see you, and Burma is in your path to go see them. Maybe I should have declared war to get my galley past them?
I was going for the UHV so I didn't play past around ~1900. It's definitely an issue up to the late 1800's at least, before your economy really gets online.
It's a major problem in the early game, to the point I was building happiness buildings instead of an army. Hollywood + Graceland + cinema + broadcast tower + shopping mall killed it off in the 20th century though. Bread and circuses for the masses!
Hello,
Big thanks for carry this project to Leoreth.
I've just started game by random nation and it happend to be Dravidans on Marathon and I think UHV 3 is to correct - I think it shouldn't scale to 75 population in capital. I don't know yet if other should scale - 7500 culture, 15k gold in 600 AD and 22500 from trade could be too much, but for UHV 3 I am almost sure it is broken.
This is true with all population-based goals on slower speeds. They're not excluded from the scaling (though they should be). For the rest, since Marathon has 3x the turns, you've got time to get 3x the culture. The general consensus here is actually that slower speeds are usually easier than Normal speed.
That makes sense. Unfortunately there’s no guarantee the Muslims will come to see you, and Burma is in your path to go see them. Maybe I should have declared war to get my galley past them?
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and the engineer slot are really welcome and were critical to winning the UHV. Great unique power, great unique building, one out of two unique units are really useful for your game... It just feels good to play. I really liked Java, a lot more than I was expecting. Indonesia was a really boring civ for me to play in 1.17, I don't think I ever finished a game with them. Java on the other hand has a lot of potential for a fun and challenging experience.
