Largest catalan independentist demonstration ever!

[Frank Drebin]

Great! Globalisation is the root to so many problems in the world. We need an antiglobalised world. With more independent the world will be less globalised. Different ethnic groups will have more freedom and it will be much easier for them to preserve what makes them unique.

an independent catalonia would still be part of the world wide economic network, and not a metaphorical island.
the only difference is they would have a little less means to hold up against global economic interest.

the supernationalisation of companies and markets that is commonly referred to as globalisation can only be regulated on a supernational level, which is why nationalisms are a thing of the past.

dont get me wrong, i'm all for federalism to the very roots, but isolationism is not an answer to todays world's problems.

(i'm not saying catalan seperatism is isolationist, i'm saying al_da_great probably is.)

 

[gangleri2001]

I love you guys. A thread on current events in catalan politics transformed into a historical discussion in 4 pages only.

the supernationalisation of companies and markets that is commonly referred to as globalisation can only be regulated on a supernational level, which is why nationalisms are a thing of the past.

Corporations =/= Communities

That's why I think there're still a lot of reasons for nationalism.

 

[Airstrike92]

There're cultural, economic, linguistic, political, social and historical reasons. This is a loooooong and complex conflict.

This.

 

[Dachs]

I love you guys. A thread on current events in catalan politics transformed into a historical discussion in 4 pages only.

It wasn't even an interesting historical discussion.

 

[Traitorfish]

I love you guys. A thread on current events in catalan politics transformed into a historical discussion in 4 pages only.

I'm sorry for attempting to defend the legitimacy of Catalonia to claim the status of "nation". I shall endeavour to be more apathetic to your struggle in future.

 

[gangleri2001]

It's the will of it's current citizens all we need to claim to be a nation, and the development of the necessary legal tools that allow us to become a new state without bloodbaths all we need to become an independent state in present-day western europe, not geopolitics from the 15th century.

Sorry pal, but I had to correct that.

 

[Traitorfish]

Yes, but in a traditional nationalist framework, nationhood must be validated by cultural and linguistic means, and, in the case of Catalonia, it is important to establish that the nation is more than merely a region of Spain. As such, one inevitably references the historical circumstances that lead Catalonia to be incorporated into the Spanish state. Unless the nationalist movement in Catalonia involves a radical reinterpretation of nationalism, which I have not been lead to believe it does, then this must be the case, or Catalonia cannot be considered anything more than a region of Spain with a funny accent and delusions of grandeur, and the movement anything less frivolous than a Yorkshire Nationalist one would be in Britain.

 

[innonimatu]

Spain didn't exist, national identities didn't exist. I'm supporting this argument, and I think you, Traitorfish and I all actually agree here (we are, after all, very clever people). I'm not saying that Portugal was a historical accident. Actually wait, I sort of am. But so is Spain.

Sorry, I guess that I did misunderstood part of what you were saying.

an independent catalonia would still be part of the world wide economic network, and not a metaphorical island.
the only difference is they would have a little less means to hold up against global economic interest.

the supernationalisation of companies and markets that is commonly referred to as globalisation can only be regulated on a supernational level, which is why nationalisms are a thing of the past.

Don't you think that there just might be a problem with the logic of giving up national sovereignty in order to defend against supra-national forces?

Those supra-national forces ("the whole "globalization" as used in diplomacy and politics/economics) exist because states gave up national sovereignty and set up international treaties which enabled the stable and continued operation of these forces. Wanting to resist them by giving up yet more national sovereignty to larger political constructs is like trying to douse a fire with gasoline! And that's what the EU has been doing, too!

 

[gangleri2001]

Yes, but in a traditional nationalist framework, nationhood must be validated by cultural and linguistic means, and, in the case of Catalonia, it is important to establish that the nation is more than merely a region of Spain. As such, one inevitably references the historical circumstances that lead Catalonia to be incorporated into the Spanish state. Unless the nationalist movement in Catalonia involves a radical reinterpretation of nationalism, which I have not been lead to believe it does, then this must be the case, or Catalonia cannot be considered anything more than a region of Spain with a funny accent and delusions of grandeur, and the movement anything less frivolous than a Yorkshire Nationalist one would be in Britain.

Ok, now I see the reason of all this historical discussion. So all we shock was a shock between nationalist framework vs. indepdendentist framework.

But again, and no matter what framework you choose, the most important things are not our history and how we ended up in Spain (which are still a lot important), but the will of the Catalans to keep being a nation and our right to become and independent state as such.

PS: The USA may have seemed nothing but a delusion of grandeur from those Englishmen who speak with a funny accent in the past too. Don't forget that.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Don't you think that there just might be a problem with the logic of giving up national sovereignty in order to defend against supra-national forces?

Those supra-national forces ("the whole "globalization" as used in diplomacy and politics/economics) exist because states gave up national sovereignty and set up international treaties which enabled the stable and continued operation of these forces. Wanting to resist them by giving up yet more national sovereignty to larger political constructs is like trying to douse a fire with gasoline! And that's what the EU has been doing, too!

what's more likely to succeed, a strike by german workers to stop their jobs being outsourced to poland or a strike by both german and polish workers to enhance their conditions to the same level?

 

[gangleri2001]

what's more likely to succeed, a strike by german workers to stop their jobs being outsourced to poland or a strike by both german and polish workers to enhance their conditions to the same level?

Outsourcing everything to China?

 

[Frank Drebin]

way to miss the point.

 

[gangleri2001]

Lol.

Looks like you've edited the post, I didn't see the quote.

 

[Traitorfish]

Ok, now I see the reason of all this historical discussion. So all we shock was a shock between nationalist framework vs. indepdendentist framework.

But again, and no matter what framework you choose, the most important things are not our history and how we ended up in Spain (which are still a lot important), but the will of the Catalans to keep being a nation and our right to become and independent state as such.

Oh, I agree. I'm just observing a significant challenge to Catalan nationalism, and one which may need addressed. Remember, opponents to independence may and do originate in Catalonia itself, and so it is necessary to convince at least some of them of the legitimacy of Catalan nation before your movement can make progress. As such, it is important to refute the assertion that Catalonia is a natural part of the Spanish state, which necessarily entails an examination of the historical process by which Catalonia was absorbed into the Spanish state.

PS: The USA may have seemed nothing but a delusion of grandeur from those Englishmen who speak with a funny accent in the past too. Don't forget that.

Well, that's not a very effective example, because the American nation post-dates the war; the movement was originally concerned with colonial autonomy, rather than nationhood. It asserted independence as a political entity, not a national one, and so cannot be directly compared.
Either way, I did not mean to imply that Catalonia is a region with "delusions of grandeur", simply that it may appear as such if not properly validated. There are not immediate geographical motivations for Catalan independence, as their clearly was in the US, nor does the Spanish state act as an oppressive entity within Catalonia as the British did in Ireland or India, so it is necessary, from your own perspective as much as anyone else's, to establish Catalonia as a legitimate concept in itself, or your movement will find it very difficult to proceed in a rational manner. The very fact that- as in Scotland and Wales- even nationalistic Catalans are divided between autonomy and independence shows the lack of a proper consensus on what Catalonia itself actually is.

 

[Lord of Elves]

As far as Scotland, Wales and Ireland go, I find the whole "we are a separate country", argument rather silly. They have been nationally, economically and socially dependent and nearly uniform (not to mention the fact that the Celtic languages that once defined their regions are dying on the vine) for so long that it all seems rather moot. Perhaps it's the perspective of an American, and one with an easily traced family tree which leads back to Old English nobility, but I kind of see Celtic secessionist movements as a lost cause, with a whole lot of unnecessary deaths on the part of the IRA.

 

[Arwon]

Political structures are one thing, but I don't think you can dispute that most people in Scotland or Catalonia feel more Scottish or Catalan than British or Spanish. They identify more with/are more proud of/get more patriotic about their nations than with the broader state they're part of. That doesn't necessarily imply incompatibility with Spain or the UK (witness Puyol et al wearing the Spanish red shirt and wearing the Catalan senyera), just that they expect a little respect and acceptance and consciousness that Spain/the UK is not Castille/England and that identities can be multiple and nested.

Which is understandable, given that a lot of anti-independence rhetoric and attitude readily bleeds over from "there shouldn't be a separate soveriegn state" into this (unconsciously imperialistic) total denial of any uniqueness and any validity to the national identity in question, which is really quite douchey. A lot of people in England or Spain seem to get outright angry that the Scots and Catalans dare to see themselves as different and distinct.

 

[Traitorfish]

As far as Scotland, Wales and Ireland go, I find the whole "we are a separate country", argument rather silly. They have been nationally, economically and socially dependent and nearly uniform (not to mention the fact that the Celtic languages that once defined their regions are dying on the vine) for so long that it all seems rather moot. Perhaps it's the perspective of an American, and one with an easily traced family tree which leads back to Old English nobility, but I kind of see Celtic secessionist movements as a lost cause, with a whole lot of unnecessary deaths on the part of the IRA.

There are certainly nuances to it which are hard for an outsider to grasp, and it's important to remember that only a minority of Britons hold statehood to rightly follow from nationhood. Welsh and Scottish nationalism is a rather recent phenomenon, while Scottish and Welsh nationhood date back to the Middle Ages.
Although Ireland is, in fact, the exception. The history there is far too bloody and far too complicated to write Irish independence off as romantic whim. If nothing else, the Republic has been quite firmly established as an independent state at this point, and has been for a long time; the issue is whether Northern Ireland should be part of the United Kingdom or part of Ireland, rather than whether Ireland should be independent at all. And, for future reference, I would be very careful about suggesting otherwise, because it is quite likely to offend.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Political structures are one thing, but I don't think you can dispute that most people in Scotland or Catalonia feel more Scottish or Catalan than British or Spanish. They identify more with/are more proud of/get more patriotic about their nations than with the broader state they're part of. That doesn't necessarily imply incompatibility with Spain or the UK (witness Puyol et al wearing the Spanish red shirt and wearing the Catalan senyera), just that they expect a little respect and acceptance and consciousness that Spain/the UK is not Castille/England and that identities can be multiple and nested.

Which is understandable, given that a lot of anti-independence rhetoric and attitude readily bleeds over from "there shouldn't be a separate soveriegn state" into this (unconsciously imperialistic) total denial any uniqueness or validity to the nationality in question, which is really quite douchey. A lot of people in England or Spain seem to get outright angry that the Scots and Catalans dare to see themselves as different and distinct.

Certainly. However, at least on the part of the IRA and some more notable Welsh and Scottish "mouths of the people", it seems to be a lot more than a regional individualism issue. Parliament getting up and making a statement about how Ireland, Scotland and Wales are unique and special in their own ways and will get a prize at the end of the soccer match will hardly calm the aforementioned down.

At the end of the day they are still part of the United Kingdom and still party to a political system that was rightfully or wrongfully set up and historically run by, "the Anglo-Saxon invaders".

ADDITION: I'm in no way arguing that any of the aforementioned should or shouldn't be a part of the United Kingdom, but merely speculating on why the phenomenon of nationalism flares up in recent times.

 

[Traitorfish]

Certainly. However, at least on the part of the IRA and some more notable Welsh and Scottish "mouths of the people", it seems to be a lot more than a regional individualism issue. Parliament getting up and making a statement about how Ireland, Scotland and Wales are unique and special in their own ways and will get a prize at the end of the soccer match will hardly calm the aforementioned down.

Their a sizeable minority, certainly, but not as great as you may think. Even the SNP is divided over exactly what they think Scottish nationalism entails, while the more radical Plaid Cymru is correspondingly less popular. Most Scots and Welsh support devolution in some form or another, which is at least in part due to their traditional bolshy tendencies, but that is no more innately implicant of separatist tendencies than the US "State's Rights" movement.

At the end of the day they are still part of the United Kingdom and still party to a political system that was rightfully or wrongfully set up and historically run by, "the Anglo-Saxon invaders".

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that; it's really rather over-simplistic, and really doesn't say very much about the geopolitical the history of the British Isles.

ADDITION: I'm in no way arguing that any of the aforementioned should or shouldn't be a part of the United Kingdom, but merely speculating on why the phenomenon of nationalism flares up in recent times.

In many ways, it's simply the formalisation and politicisation of pre-existing feelings. I'm not sure why they decided to manifest themselves so much strongly in the post-war era, and there's doubtlessly a variety of opinions on the matter. At least part of is the general disenchantment with the concept of "Britain" in the post-imperial era; being part of a crumbling, doddery old relic is rather last fun than being part of a powerful, globe-spanning empire. Suddenly England becomes less of a brother-in-arms, more of a nagging old mother-in-law.
In Ireland, of course, it's yet more complex, and derives for centuries of ethnic, religious and political conflict, but that's a textbook or two in itself...

 

[Lord of Elves]

What I'm saying in the case of Wales and Scotland is that it seems that at this point, to my knowledge there are so few Welsh and Scots who speak their ancestral languages, or have much connection at all to pre-Union culture, that those nations would have to "reinvent", the whole nationalist cause and sense of political identity to have a chance at really asserting national independence.

However, I've never been to Britain myself, so I can't speak to the truth of the amount of Welshmen or Scotsmen who have connection to the pre-Anglicization culture of their ancestors. Merely postulating on my outsiders' knowledge.