Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by firecat318, Oct 6, 2010.
Hehe, I can't remember the largest city I ever had was, I think it was 56 pop.
Bananas are insane. I built a city near 2 banana on a riverside tile and it grew faster than my capital by a large margin.
<comment removed because it contains a blunt, but honest opinion >
also notic his units. they're not high tech. doesn't seem right...
In BNW, sending food trade routes can also get a lot of food. Also, I had a 53 pop city in a regular game because of lake Victoria/Spain/hanging gardens start. Maybe if you added this into the edited game for max food ...
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Well, it was not me, sorry; but i wouldn't be surprised at all if even much higher than 100 would actually be very possible. Let's try to figure out - very simply and rudely, - a sort of theoretical limit to the city's population:
max "workable" city size = 37 tiles;
max regular food per tile = 4 (grasslands; some more can be from resources, which i omit - those can compensate somewhat for some tiles being plains, for example);
therefore, let's say that base food from tiles ~= 148 food
additional base food:
+2 from Granary
+2 from Water Mill (being next to a river, that is)
+5 from Hospital
+6 from Hanging Gardens
+12 from Maritime allied city-states (assuming ~4 as realistic number of Maritime city-states on a huge map, and assuming we are talking the Capitol city, which gets +3 per each Maritime ally)
+60 from 10 domestic caravans, each bringing in +6 food
therefore, base food total ~= 235 food
multipliers to total food:
+15% from Floating Gardens (playing Aztecs for max population cities is sort of expected, right?);
+10% from Temple of Artemis;
therefore, total food supply ~= 294
Which is sufficient to have 155 population, assuming Freedom ideology's tenet which reduces specialist's food consumption by 50% (to 1) is taken, and it's a city which has 17 specialists total - which is the case in a city with a Windmill, Writers' Guild, Artists' Guild, Musicians' Guild and all the usual specialists' buildings present.
1 extra population is then possible via CN tower.
Therefore, a "somewhat theoretical" limit to a city's population in game - is 156. I am not sure how long time it'd take to get to anything past 150, though, because _time_ costs of each new citizen skyrocket to near infinity when getting last few dozens of population. With dwindling growth as city gets bigger and bigger, it would take a LOOONG time. But, should be doable, i guess... %)
On the other hand, growth to 100, given all the above food sources, - should take quite short time indeed. With a surplus of 200+ food, further much boosted by bonuses to growth (which are "we love the King!" day for +25% surplus, some religious beliefs giving +10%), and of course Aqueduct + Medical Lab present, growth from ~40 to to 100 population would possibly take ~200 turns or even less. I guess.
So i'd say, 100+ population city - provided extremely "grasslandish" location with quite a bunch +food resources like wheat and cattle, - is totally doable in-game, should one aim to do it specifically (playing Aztecs, having one's capitol in such a location for Maritime boosts, etc). If the player keeps going to and through the time limit, 140+ should be eventually possible...
On a map created for max population cities by hand, though, it gets even much higher. Plains + bananas = 6 food per tile end-game, 37 such tiles should make possible 200+ population city... %)
P.S. Ugh, i forgot that policy from Tradition tree which gives +2 base food to the capital. Well, that CN tower thing is not likely to be constructed _after_ the city gets to max size, though - the player would need to keep AI's from getting it for many hundreds turns, i guess. Which is doable but very boring, i guess. So i'll keep that limit at 156 anyhows. Give or take a few. ><
Aztecs is a must for 140+ i think, and even more importantly, food caravans are. The latter alone allows to get 37+ more citizizens i guess, assuming you get all possible extra caravan routes. Not sure what's the total maximum number of caravans is, but i know 10 is doable. Obviously you'd need that many cities built, but i don't think it complicates happiness problem any much - if at all, - because of all the policies and buildings for local happiness, allowing to get those satellites at least into "teens" without them starting to substruct from global happiness, and then one can halt their growth at any point by proper micromanaging and proper land improvements.
Cheers! And, it was a nice post you did. Thanks!
I tried something like this a while ago. My limiting factor was the game ending due to victory on the turn after this screenshot. Had the game not been won, I technically still had 157 turns to fool around with enough food to support about 66 more people at this point
I wasn't the Aztecs because the main reason I was playing it was to knock out some of the new BNW achievements back then, one of which was to do a Morocco game. I also didn't own the wonders of the ancient world dlc at the time. I did this on quick, small, archipelago, low sea levels, settler. Better would probably be a larger map to guarantee more maritime city states and more potential to grab we love the king resources.
Anyway, the cargo ships give 13 food each which is way better than caravans can provide. My land was kind of junk, but having a map that provides 10 easy sea trade routes with your capital and doesn't have junk terrain would probably take forever to roll up. You could probably recalculate with about 70 more base food to account for this, although barring some miraculous luck you most likely have to sacrifice some significant terrain food to be coastal.
For reaching the theoretical populations quickly, swords into plowshares and fertility rites may be important. Also Landed Elite seems critical as well. Difficulty was on settler to allow settlers from huts to speed up the flow of food into the capital. If I'm reading ToA correctly, I think it works like the food modifiers I had in this screenshot, being applied after food is eaten, in which case it doesn't increase your potential maximum, just how quickly you can get there.
I think that screenshot a page back or so is photoshopped. I don't think that type of food surplus would be possible at that population. I believe you would need around 480 food produced which at least in the current patches is probably not doable. Maybe way back in the past before maritime city states were nerfed. I don't remember the old numbers on them though. But keep in mind that was before food trade routes so that is 480 food strictly from terrain, buildings and maritime city states.
You mean +400 from 20 cargo ships each bringing in food, because you're Venice and took Order
Wow, well thats a big change since I did this back at the release of BNW.
But they aren't going to produce 20 food each if the patch notes i'm reading here are correct:
It seems like they would produce something around 16 or 17 food depending on rounding.
If you take Order's Iron Curtain tenet, internal trade routes will provide 50% more Food or Production.
Geez, that's one i surely missed. Thing is that i - ashamed to say, - have no puppeting experience whatsoever. Nor Venice's, tbh. Can puppets send internal caravans? If yes, then what you say is _the_ thing to go, indeed.
Would be hillarious, too. 300+ population city, anyone? Getting that much happiness - with 20 puppets around, - would be quite a challenge, though. %) %)
Edit: ok, granaries in puppets can be bought (Venice's feature), that should help. Also, getting 20 puppets could be quite much of warmongering, which Venice might not want. But then, could it be possible to ally some city state, then DoW some AI near that CS (indirectly - via defense pact with some other AI, and bribing 1st AI to DoW the 2nd, probably), then have fair bunch of strong melee units gifted to CS, then have CS capture some AI's cities, and then - _before_ CS would raze those cities, - "buy" them with merchants of Venice, stop razing and thus get puppets without getting warmongering? Now that's one interesting thing i probably gonna try some day. %)
Venice is great at warmongering early on, Great Galleas are really good. You don't care about inland cities anyways since you want to send sea routes.
Who cares if the rest of the world hates you? You're not trading with them anyways.
I can say that a size 82 city is 228,000,000 people.
Venice as a whole probably cannot support too many people because of the puppeted citizen penalty.
Order is pretty good for growin lots of cities, but once they get big, the specialist penalty becomes an issue.
Then don't let 'em become big. Some nuclear fallout is perhaps a bit extreme... May be few or no farms would do the job? Not sure.
I have wondered this for a while myself (max. population that is), so earlier I created a map & scenario just to see.
The Aztecs start on a landmass with every tile having a wheat resource, with the exception of 3 tiles needed for ocean access and these tiles have a fish resource each. Every workable tile on this island had fresh water access. Surrounding this landmass I placed 10 islands and distributed the various resources among them so as to always have "We love the king day". I placed every Maritime city state in the game on the map and Aztecs begin the game with 1000 influence with each (interesting aside: when you begin a normal game allied with citystates you get a notification stating they declare war on barbarians).
I chose everything I could to maximize food - +1 food from wheat pantheon, +1 from shrines and temples for religion, chose order and grabbed the policy to double food from cargo ships, etc.
The only AI civ is Venice and they start on an island with their capital entirely surrounded by Mountains.
I can get up to population 176 and it appears that it should keep growing, however everytime the population would grow to 177 my game crashes. Not sure if that's just my machine or some sort of bug with the game - maybe someone else can test it out?
Here's a screen of 4 turns before I crash:
On the game I posted a screen of just now, my cargo ships were sending 16 food each with the policy from order.
On a side note, how to you create your own maps like above?
You have to install the Civ 5 SDK. If you are using Steam you can do this via the 'Tools' section of your library (click on 'All Games' near the top left and switch it to 'Tools'). Once installed run the SDK and choose 'World Builder'.
Creating a map/scenario is pretty intuitive from there. Once you are done, save the map somewhere then run the SDK again and choose 'ModBuddy' this time. In ModBuddy go to 'New', then 'Project'. Select 'Map Pack' and it will bring up a window where you can add maps to your mod. Select the map you made, then go to 'Build' on the toolbar - this will install your mod in your Civ 5 directory.
Once you've done that load up Civ 5, go to 'Mods', select your newly created mod and start a game!
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