Largest city

[vale]

Technically they give a little more than 16 per route. 20 was giving me 325 here:

Spoiler :

Technically the game ended a while ago with a cultural victory, but I selected the one more turn option to get some more time to grow.

Once you have 20 iron curtain information age cargo boats delivering food with we love the king go, Venice grows very quickly. At this point it was 2 turns per pop (quick).

 

[FinsT]

Of course it does grow quickly, at this point. I'm curious how much food per citizen the city would need once it's 250+ population; with 3+ times lower surplus, it'd probably then be about 10 turns per every new citizen?

Getting to 300 would be a long, long process even if the terrain is as good as it can be (without hand-made all-bananas, eh).

Amazed by your happiness (480). WOoot!? oO

 

[vale]

I'm fairly certain that is a result of having a ton of cities, all with a ton of local happiness, that are producing very limited unhappiness as a result of being on settler.

Also if this link I found is correct, you would have approximately 5362 food needed to grow from 200 to 201 after aqueduct and medical lab carryover from the prior growth. With the current total food, assuming I could keep a we love the king going, it would be a growth surplus of 129.5 food, thus requiring 42 turns to grow at that point.

My sanity check says that article is wrong though. The food required to grow at 150 should be 9174 according to that formula which it clearly isn't.

Yeah that article is completely off. I have no idea how the food requirement grows, but still with 98 turns left, hitting 170 would probably be about the limit.

 

[Browd]

The food growth formula in BNW is different from the formula in that article (that was for vanilla, after the first patch, I believe). The formula at that time for food required to grow from pop n to pop n+1 was 15 + 6(n-1) + (n-1)^1.8

In BNW, the formula for food required to grow from pop n to pop n+1 is 15 + 8(n-1) + (n-1)^1.5

This results in slightly larger food requirements for early population growth, but substantially lower requirements as population grows.

 

[ravenmagus]

My Venice got to 147 pop by turn 500 on Standard. Still growing fast too, so with a bit better planning, I'm sure I could have gotten it quite a bit bigger...

 

[vale]

In BNW, the formula for food required to grow from pop n to pop n+1 is 15 + 8(n-1) + (n-1)^1.5

Ahh yes that is more like it (after adjusting for quick speed that is).

Now the number that is confusing me is growth food from that screenshot.

It says I have 174 base with various modifiers listed below that bring it to 305.55 food. The modifiers seem to add up to .85 (at least by my math), but that total food is more in line with a .75 modifier.

Anyway, bringing in a spreadsheet to at least get a rough estimate of where I would end up with 98 more turns I can guarantee that I would at least get to 175 by the turn limit. Realistically, it could probably be a few more as all I did was find the point where the total food needed to get to a level equaled the total food produced over 98 turns
*at that population level* so I would have some extra food floating around from while I was growing to that point. I'm too lazy to figure out a good way to do the actual thing and the save is long gone (3 minute ai turns anyway at that point wasn't particularly appealing to me).

 

[FinsT]

Aha! The formulae! Thanks for it, Browd. Can play with it now a bit. ^^ And yes! Lowering that 1.8 to 1.5 is a serious difference for high-end growth, indeed.

Using that BNW formulae, at population = 200, it'd be 4414 food needed for the next citizen. Subject to -65% from aqueduct and medlab i recon? Then, assuming Vale's-like +200 surplus at population = 200, it'd be 7.725 (~8) turns to get from population = 200 to population 201.

Same logic done for n=300 gives 7577 food, let's say +5 food surplus still remain at this point - then it'd take 530.4 turns to get from 300 to 301.

Ouch.

How about population = 250 though. It's 5936 food, at ~ +100 surplus - so ~20 turns. Twice more than i guessed previously, but still not too sky-high... Can it be possible to get that high, in practice, during "just one more turn", i wonder?

P.S. And few pages ago, someone had hard times believing 100 population is possible... Hehehe.

 

[vale]

Then, assuming Vale's-like +200 surplus at population = 200, it'd be 7.725 (~8) turns to get from population = 200 to population 201.

Surplus in the Venice I posted would be more along the lines of 130ish. Even though each new person only eats 2 food, it costs more growth surplus assuming the multipliers are factored in after the current population eats. Each new pop lowers that surplus by about 3.5.

Really barring amazing terrain things will slow down very quickly going from around 2.39 turns for growth at 150, 8.48 turns at 200, over 10 at 206. Keep in mind these are quick numbers, where there are only 330 turns in the entire game.

To put it in perspective, if you had that total food output at turn 1 size 1 with all the bonuses throughout the game AND you could grow more than once per turn which unless they changed the mechanics of growth from Civ IV to Civ V is not the case, you would just barely reach population 199. So with normalish terrain, I'm thinking 180ish would be a pretty amazing achievement. My math from here out says I would be right around 178ish at turn 330.

It might be easier on marathon, I'm not sure. I prefer quick because I feel like set-up goes quicker because of the better rush buy potential early.

Doesn't the game completely cut you off at the turn limit? I can't even remember if I have ever played a game to the turn limit to check but if it cuts you off then 330/500/750/1500 are going to be absolute maximums for turns you can use.

 

[FinsT]

Well, last few games i did were not to the limit also - got disappointed with 'em, - but if memory serves, there is a choice at the max turn moment: either to get done with it, or keep going (the button says something about "just one more turn... please".

So i did a few searches in 'em internets, and i have a feeling that:
- disabling all victory types except max turns (time) should allow to keep playing past max turns (2050 AD, is it?) _if_ the player won (by score) - using "just one more turn" button. If the player lost (by score), then the button is grayed out, and continuation is impossible;
- it might be possible to go infinite game if the player disables all victory types, including "max turns" (time-based) victory type, except domination. I.e., playing with only domination victory - and not capturing all the AIs nor allowing an AI to capture yourself, - should work.

It's quite funny how few of us actually made it well into the future in this game. For me, the cause was that every game i played so far at some point turned significantly less-than-what-i'd-want my empire to be (for various reasons). My last one, though, is so far perfect enough, and it's already 1990s, so good chances are that in a few weeks i'll get into something like 2100s. Just gotta finish taking out all but 1 city of those steamish indonesians, and i'll park all my forces within my borders and get into lazy mode of waiting and seeing how all those AIs would be recovering from all the beating i did to 'em. Hehehe.

 

[Fish Man]

Theoretical maximum size should be easy enough to determine. The maximum yield from a tile is 5. Assuming all tiles the city can work yield 5 food and the city tile itself yields 3 the city will produce (6+12+18)*5+3=183 food. Granary + Watermill add 4 for 187. 10 of the possible city states are maritime so they can add another 70 for 257. That's enough to feed 128 population. Siam would get 100 from city states so that's 287 food -> 143 population. Aztec would get 15% bonus on food production so 295 food -> 147 population.

A more realistic scenario is 4 yield per tile, 6 from city center and buildings. That would generate 150 food and 75 population. Note however, that the game would probably end much sooner than the city would reach that size.

Will people actually pay attention to the OP? He's talking about cultural border size, not population.

Another thing - the maximum food tile yield is 6, either from Lake Vic or riverside FP farms with wheat, and you missed some bonuses. So the actual maximum food tile yield would be (6+12+18)*6+5 (+2 from tradition) = 216. Hanging Gardens adds another +6 which would be 222. Add granary/watermill/hospital to that and get +9 to get 231. Sun god every wheat tile to get another 36 food, totaling 267. Let's factor in CS: 48 maximum CS, all maritime with Siam, give 6*48 = 288 extra, totaling 555. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE: as Venice you get 20 max trade routes. With party leadership and sea routes you get 18 food from each and total 18*20 = 360 extra food. Total is now 916 food, with that one extra from order. Now the bonuses: landed elite +10%, fertility rites +10%, swords into plowshares +15%, floating gardens + 15%, total +50% growth. 916*1.5 = ...

1374 FOOD TOTAL assuming you had access to multiple UAs/UBs/pantheons.

Each citizen takes 2 food to feed, so maximum city pop is...

687 CITIZENS! Somebody quickly figure out how much bpt you can get...

 

[ravenmagus]

Will people actually pay attention to the OP? He's talking about cultural border size, not population.

Another thing - the maximum food tile yield is 6, either from Lake Vic or riverside FP farms with wheat, and you missed some bonuses. So the actual maximum food tile yield would be (6+12+18)*6+5 (+2 from tradition) = 216. Hanging Gardens adds another +6 which would be 222. Add granary/watermill/hospital to that and get +9 to get 231. Sun god every wheat tile to get another 36 food, totaling 267. Let's factor in CS: 48 maximum CS, all maritime with Siam, give 6*48 = 288 extra, totaling 555. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE: as Venice you get 20 max trade routes. With party leadership and sea routes you get 18 food from each and total 18*20 = 360 extra food. Total is now 916 food, with that one extra from order. Now the bonuses: landed elite +10%, fertility rites +10%, swords into plowshares +15%, floating gardens + 15%, total +50% growth. 916*1.5 = ...

1374 FOOD TOTAL assuming you had access to multiple UAs/UBs/pantheons.

Each citizen takes 2 food to feed, so maximum city pop is...

687 CITIZENS! Somebody quickly figure out how much bpt you can get...

The OP was three and a half years ago, and the thread since moved on to a more interesting topic that wasn't so easily answered.

You are mixing up some bonuses here. You can't have Sun God and Fertility Rites unless you're Byzantium. Judging by your bonuses, the city needs to be Byzantium, Venice, and Aztec at the same time to achieve that amount. (Though you did miss Tradition 15% and Feed the World.)

Beakers per turn is limitless, as you can make literally infinite cities. And before you claim happiness cap: India.

 

[Fish Man]

The OP was three and a half years ago, and the thread since moved on to a more interesting topic that wasn't so easily answered.

You are mixing up some bonuses here. You can't have Sun God and Fertility Rites unless you're Byzantium. Judging by your bonuses, the city needs to be Byzantium, Venice, and Aztec at the same time to achieve that amount. (Though you did miss Tradition 15% and Feed the World.)

Beakers per turn is limitless, as you can make literally infinite cities. And before you claim happiness cap: India.

I mean how much bpt from that single hypothetical city. Also, in this situation I clearly stated that I assumed mixing UAs/UBs/pantheons/policies were allowed.

 

[ravenmagus]

I mean how much bpt from that single hypothetical city. Also, in this situation I clearly stated that I assumed mixing UAs/UBs/pantheons/policies were allowed.

That seems to be a strange way to calculate the maximum possible city size, as it's in a way that is not actually possible

 

[Fish Man]

That seems to be a strange way to calculate the maximum possible city size, as it's in a way that is not actually possible

The OP mentioned both Siam UA and Aztec UB in his calculations, so I assumed the same. Besides, bigger is better !

 

[FinsT]

...
Doesn't the game completely cut you off at the turn limit? I can't even remember if I have ever played a game to the turn limit to check but if it cuts you off then 330/500/750/1500 are going to be absolute maximums for turns you can use.

Ok, now i can answer this precisely.

The game _might_ cut you off, but if you do the following, then it won't do that:
1. disable all victory types except time victory at the game's start;
2. win the game (by having highest score at the "last" turn);
3. press "one more turn" button (which, it seems, is active only if you did win (and did not lose to some AI) - thus p.2);
4. go on playing.

Note, i suspect that the same might be possible after any kind of win, except domination - but i didn't check it myself.

Source: 1st-hand experience. My current game was created this way exactly (p.1); i won the game (had highest score at the turn 750 - it's epic speed); did p.3; at the moment, it is turn 1050, year 2200, and there is no sign it'd ever end. Someone said somewhere that "one more turn" only goes to 1000 turns - apparently, this is not the case; at least, not on Epic speed. If/when i'd go past 1500 turns, i'll try to drop an update into this topic.

Here's the catch though. I knew unit maintenance costs go up with time - but i did not expect it grows up that quickly. At this point in my current game, i am paying 17+ coins of maintenance per unit. I have 104 units in total. So it's ~1800 gpt to keep 'em units up. Unit maintenance cost total nearly doubled during last ~300 turns. So far i still have some +800 or so gpt, but it doesn't feel too promising. Considering current balance, reserves (~400k) and potential for more gpt, i'd say i have at very least 600 more turns before i'd face danger of bankruptcy - possibly 800+ turns. But once there, it's either massive cut to army size, or hugely negative balance "forever". Apart from science hit (which i can live with, for sure - future tech is useless anyways, since i already won and score is not really needed) and inability to buy anything (also tolerable - have everything) - are there any other undesirable effects of having huge debt?

 

[ravenmagus]

Ok, now i can answer this precisely.

You can always hit 'Just one more turn!" any time you win, and can keep on playing. The option appears when you lose, too, though I'm not sure what happens if you died from being conquered and you try to continue.

Negative gold is supposed to make your units auto disband when you're in deep enough debt, but I've personally never seen it happen (and I've been in pretty bad debt before). You might need to stay at 0 gold/negative gpt for a significant amount of time before anything like that actually happens.

 

[FinsT]

... The option appears when you lose, too, though I'm not sure what happens if you died from being conquered and you try to continue.
...

There are multiple reports about the button being "inactive" - can't be pressed. I can see no reason for it other than player losing the game. Didn't experience personally, as i didn't happen to lose. Could it be caused by something else than losing a game?

And about units - OUCH. That'd hurt. Assuming there is no cap for maintenance costs growth, this sooner or later would eliminate all but 11 of my combat units (in my case it's 11 cities; garrison units cost no maintenance - from policies - but i have an impression that only 1 unit per city is considered its "garrison", even if multiple units are stationed in the city). Unfair! //sad_panda