Late Game Conquest

[Thalassicus]

Warfare would be harder against a larger AI. Can anyone think of a way to specifically help out militaristic AIs vs peaceful AIs... in a way that does not directly affect Human-AI warfare?

The simplest answer I can think of is AIs get +10% strength per difference in their "boldness" level. Unfortunately, we do not have direct access to combat modifiers, so this is not possible. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out an alternative.

Something I did try is militaristic AIs get more experience than peaceful ones. Unfortunately, this also helps out the human against peaceful AIs.

 

[albie_123]

There's no way to detect whether an AI unit is attacking an AI or a human unit then, I'm guessing?

And can I ask how Militaristic AI's getting more XP than Peaceful ones helped out human players?

 

[Seek]

Warfare would be harder against a larger AI. Can anyone think of a way to specifically help out militaristic AIs vs peaceful AIs... in a way that does not directly affect Human-AI warfare?

The best option I can think of is lowering some of the bonuses that peaceful empires receive (such as lowering the DoF RA bonus) or, if that isn't desirable, giving warmongers some additional bonus to production and/or science. Playing peacefully with VEM is so much more effective than warmongering compared to vanilla - which is a good thing to be sure, it just may be a little too much now - that warmongers simply cannot compete.

 

[albie_123]

It's not an issue for warmongering players - at least, on King. I don't know about higher levels.

But aggressive AI's literally have no chance of getting anywhere. They can never win a major war, and I have never seen a capital fall - ever - that wasn't my doing.

 

[mitsho]

Would it be possible to give the warmongering AIs a unique palace that grants an attack bonus? Too much work probably? ;-) Giving all AI a attack bonus against cities? Doubling Strategic Ressources for warmongering AI? Giving them higher flanking bonus (= only works if their attack is coordinated)

 

[albie_123]

Doubling strategic resources wouldn't do much, as it's never been an issue of volume for AI armies.

AI being able to use Seige weaponry, or at the very least, knowing to build more when on the offensive, would be a good first step.

 

[Seek]

It's not an issue for warmongering players - at least, on King. I don't know about higher levels.

But aggressive AI's literally have no chance of getting anywhere. They can never win a major war, and I have never seen a capital fall - ever - that wasn't my doing.

Yes, I meant warmongering AIs - should've made that more clear! I have seen plenty of capitals fall on Emperor.

@mitsho: Personally, I would prefer it if we could make them competitive via more behind the scenes approaches than straight combat buffs or inconsistent resource holdings.

 

[Txurce]

Warfare would be harder against a larger AI. Can anyone think of a way to specifically help out militaristic AIs vs peaceful AIs... in a way that does not directly affect Human-AI warfare?

Another problem is categorizing the AI as militaristic or not, with all the borderline cases.

Playing peacefully with VEM is so much more effective than warmongering compared to vanilla - which is a good thing to be sure, it just may be a little too much now - that warmongers simply cannot compete.

I think the following is the real issue, rather than peaceful AI being too strong:

But aggressive AI's literally have no chance of getting anywhere. They can never win a major war, and I have never seen a capital fall - ever - that wasn't my doing.

I do see capitals fall - in fact, in almost every game on Emperor. But the AI definitely fight trench-warfare style, and tend not to build a head of conquering steam until late in the game, when it's too late... although it might not be too late vs a weak peaceful human anymore.

 

[albie_123]

Really? I guess I just need to get better and start playing on higher levels then!

It's frustrating that the AI is simply incapable of winning via Conquest. I've seen them win every other way, but Conquest, nope. It's because they don't get the same steamroll effect we do, because they don't realise just what they're doing.

 

[mitsho]

@seek I would as well, but that's AI programming, meaning it's difficult to accomplish, right. The capturing of cities has probably a lot to do with not being able to navigate siege and melee units at the same time towards an enemy city. Sometimes it's because of the map, when coasts and their own siege units block melee units getting through. This might be solved by making the capital ships better/more prone to bombarding cities. Inland it's more difficult. One probably should make a few tests to see them act vs. for example a fully open spaced city and a forestes/hilly one.

 

[Seek]

Really? I guess I just need to get better and start playing on higher levels then!

It's frustrating that the AI is simply incapable of winning via Conquest. I've seen them win every other way, but Conquest, nope. It's because they don't get the same steamroll effect we do, because they don't realise just what they're doing.

I've never seen the AI get close to a Domination victory either - it's generally just a couple capitals per game.

@seek I would as well, but that's AI programming, meaning it's difficult to accomplish, right. The capturing of cities has probably a lot to do with not being able to navigate siege and melee units at the same time towards an enemy city. Sometimes it's because of the map, when coasts and their own siege units block melee units getting through. This might be solved by making the capital ships better/more prone to bombarding cities. Inland it's more difficult. One probably should make a few tests to see them act vs. for example a fully open spaced city and a forestes/hilly one.

Hopefully with Gods & Kings coastal cities will fall more easily to the AI due to the "relaxed unit stacking" wrt embarked units.

 

[albie_123]

If the Domination victory was more akin to the Domination victory in Civ 4 - a mixture of Land, Pop and Conquest - then I think we'd see AI's getting close to it. But every Capital? That means they'd have to beat all the AI's and THEN the human as well, which is just undoable.

 

[Txurce]

If the Domination victory was more akin to the Domination victory in Civ 4 - a mixture of Land, Pop and Conquest - then I think we'd see AI's getting close to it.

Uh, Thal... is some version of this possible? To be specific, roughly the equivalent of an AI more or less taking over their continent?

 

[Aristos]

Perhaps if you change the definition of Warmonger to something like:

Whoever picks the Honor tree is a warmonger.

Then you can adjust the Honor tree to boost "warmongers".

 

[Thalassicus]

Can anyone think of a way to specifically help out militaristic AIs vs peaceful AIs... in a way that does not directly affect Human-AI warfare?

I believe the ideas so far would affect human-AI warfare. I'd be okay with changing the domination victory to Civ 4 style (percentage of land and population), though it doesn't help the problem at hand. Click here to see the militaristic AIs.

 

[rhammer640]

I would also be in favor of the cIV style of conquest victory if it helps the AI possibly get close to a conquest victory. Would add some interesting choices for a peaceful game if you had to switch gears to stop an AI player who is getting close to winning via Conquest.

 

[Txurce]

I believe the ideas so far would affect human-AI warfare. I'd be okay with changing the domination victory to Civ 4 style (percentage of land and population), though it doesn't help the problem at hand. Click here to see the militaristic AIs.

Agreed that the proposed changes (except Albie's) affect human/AI warfare.

Changing the domination VC would make the game more challenging in general, and possibly more challenging to the less stellar human warmongers. At least the AI could (and would) win some games this way.

In terms of boosting the militaristic AI in a way that doesn't benefit humans, is there a way to encourage military buildings, and then give these buildings additional promotions - the way you already give all AI units (but not human ones) additional promotions by era?

 

[Seek]

@Thal - Perhaps I didn't understand your question, do you just want to give warmonger AIs bonuses vs other AIs? In that case I guess I wouldn't be opposed to straight military strength buffs.

Otherwise, if you meant giving warmonger AIs a more even footing so that they will be more successful in general (which is how I interpreted the question), I still stand by my suggestion above to either lower peaceful bonuses or give science or production buffs to warmonger AIs, neither of which would ostensibly affect human-AI warring (except to possibly make it more difficult).

 

[Txurce]

@Thal - Perhaps I didn't understand your question, do you just want to give warmonger AIs bonuses vs other AIs? In that case I guess I wouldn't be opposed to straight military strength buffs.

Otherwise, if you meant giving warmonger AIs a more even footing so that they will be more successful in general (which is how I interpreted the question), I still stand by my suggestion above to either lower peaceful bonuses or give science or production buffs to warmonger AIs, neither of which would ostensibly affect human-AI warring (except possibly make it more difficult).

I think Thal meant in general, which would still allow them to perform better vs the more peaceful AI. Lowering the peaceful-civ bonuses affects the human player (by benefiting him, obviously). Giving the militaristic civs production and/or science buffs would help, but I would ideally prefer that they maintain their character, rather than become versions of Persia, say, or the old Ottomans (two civs who profitably play both sides of the fence). That's why I suggested making their armies tougher by boosting all military buildings. (These could include not just the barracks line, but also blast furnaces and stables, which then starts to overlap with your production-buff proposal.)

 

[Seek]

By that definition wouldn't buffing military buildings affect the player? Truly the best option in my mind is to reduce the DoF RA bonus (I'm actually not clear why it was raised) or find some way for militaristic AIs to clique up like peaceful ones do (which has been hinted may happen more in G&K).