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Latest IGN preview (July 11)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Watiggi, Jul 12, 2006.

  1. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    The link is here.

    It has the rest of the information about CivIV Warlords including the leader trait pairings, new units, the wonders and detailed info about the Great General.
     
  2. drkodos

    drkodos Emperor

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    Interesting changes in the existing leader's traits. Very interesting.

    Some of been nerfed a bit (Catherine) and some have been bolstered.
     
  3. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    The Great General appears in the capital city. I think that is a really bad move. The Great General should appear at the place of battle. So a defensive civ will have them appear where it is supposed to and an aggressive civ will have them appear where its supposed to. The aggressive warmongers are going to find it tedious having to move the Great General from their capital over to their attacking army in order to use it in their attacking army. If it appeared at the place of battle, the battle would flow more smoothly and an attacking force could at least be a little self reliant or something.

    Very bad move in my opinion.

    EDIT: maybe I am not seeing something here...
     
  4. princecharles

    princecharles Warlord

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    Great Generals will be inhuge demand in my empire. +20 exp to all units in same tile as the unit it joins with....:eek: .
    Oh, and its in the capital so you can't automatically grant 20 exp in your huge stack of 50 units.
    I didn't see any explanation of the new UU's, though.
     
  5. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    I am wondering if the 20 xp is distributed over all of the units in the same tile. That way it could become interesting if you have 10 units that get 2 xp or 1 unit that gets 20 xp. I wonder.

    20 xp per unit for all units is pretty cool.
     
  6. Not.Bad

    Not.Bad Chieftain

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    Hmm, some of the changes I like, others I don't. One MUST be a mistake.

    The mistake being the "Russian Research Institute" which reads "+2 free scientists", with no additional cost. That's sickenly overpowered. I'm not going to even discuss it beyond "it's a mistake".

    They turned Cathy into a descent warmongererish type civ. Lot's of people going to be upset about her losing financial, she was a favourite to many. Stalin is the new Napolean, and Peter is still underwhelming (unless the unique building is true, which it can't be).

    I have mixed feelings about Japan. I liked aggresive and organised personally. Adding Protective certainly makes things interesting though. Promotions for all Melee, Gunpowder, Artillery and Archers. Samurais and Catapults/Trebuchets are going to be a deadly combo, minimising losses around that time. Crossbows, Longbows and Pikeman will in turn make great defenders around that same period. Basically a very, very strong midgame. Unique building is meh, considering his mid game could very well decide or finish most games. If the plants retain the negative health qualities, I'm definitly not impressed.

    New Napolean is underwhelming. The traits are good, but they turn an already poor UU, into a terrible UU ala Louis. Salon replacing a Observatory? Ok. Free artist? Hmm, not liking this building. Culture at that period shouldn't be a problem. My outskirt cities where culture is important probably won't be building observatories anyway. Free Artist points that I probably don't want? Yuck.

    Poor Huayna, Quechua rush was nerfed with the loss of Aggresive, and he goes from a Warmongering civ, to a builder Civ that has access to mysticism? The new Ghandhi, of builders. The building is very neat, culture added to Graneries is great, if a tad contradictory to being one of the few civs able to found a early religion.

    Mali is my new favourite Financial civ along with Hannibal. Forges adding commerce is great.

    Washington went from the biggest money/empire man, to the biggest early city man. +3 health and +2 happiness from the get go? Yes please. Grocer and Marines mean a very strong late game.

    Mixed feelings about Montezuma. The UB is great, and I can see it's potential power, especially combined with the Spiritual trait. I assume -50% anger is applied to the duration, so you have to build cities that can grow fast enough to take full advantage of it. He is the jungle man though, turning flat jungle covered land into his advantage. Jungle is the only place Jaguars shine, and means a lot of flat land, which means a lot of food. On the other hand the increased cost, for such a vital building is a drag. That time period is also around the time I want my cities to be growing not being sacrificed to the gods since Calendar and Currency is the techs I usually aim for right after CoL.

    Mongols in general are crazy early warmongers. I assume their UB is a Stable that replaces Barracks, and gives +4 experience to mounter units as well. Just wow. Both trait combos of the leaders are very interesting now.

    Cyrus went from arguably having the worst traits, to two very descent ones. I will miss the old Cyrus, who could plop a city anywhere and not worry about borders, or being next to fresh water though. Some of my best citiest were founded and created that way.

    So much more to discuss...My biggest beef? I wish IGN would bother to proof read their articles before being posted. There must be a dozen mistakes, and vague unclarity about certain things. Claiming Industrious-Creative never existed is a silly mistake, since it was Creative-Organised that was missing. Julius Caesar was never Expansive-Creative, that was Cyrus.
     
  7. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    The Mongol UB is the "Mongolian Ger" and it replaces the Stable. That means that there is a generic Stable improvement that everyone can build...a new building :D

    I do wonder what the Stable does though, because the Mongol UB does +4 xp for mounted units on top of that.

    Oh btw, I think the +2 scientists means that the city can have an additional 2 scientists on top of what the library already grants (which I think is 2). I don't think it means literally 2 free scientists - it just lets you allocate 2 more scientists.

    I gotta say though: I think Genghis is the real warmonger in this. If the Aggressive trait is modified so that it also allows for the Stables to be built quicker and does somethig about only giving mele units the Combat bonus, then you will have a rather powerful, military focused leader and game style where its all military and all war. I mean, he can build the Barracks at half price for 4 xp. He can build the Mongolian Ger which gives 4 xp to mounted unit on top of that. I am thinking that maybe the Stables gives +25% production to mounted units or something. Add to that, the +100% increase in Great General which gives the military academy (+25% military production) and can be used to increase base xp. Whoa! The only thing he has lost is his Granary bonus (which wasn't appropriate for him anyway). He is going to be an interesting warmonger. I hope the AI is altered to reflect that too.

    I will also say that I think Napoleon will be under-estimated and I can't believe Cyrus getting Charismatic/Imperialistic. Man that is one combo :eek:

    Watiggi
     
  8. Vietcong

    Vietcong Deity

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    i like most of it
    mongalians seem realy kick butt!!
    love the mongalian ub!!
    allso like the german ub, a very good late building. even if u dont have coal, its still worth the 4 enganers.

    the one i dislike more then any is the celtic building..
    thear uu is nothing more then a swords man that starts with gurrila and plus +10% city atack.
    but the celtic ub give free gurrila promotion, meaning the celtic uu has no real atvantage to any other unit the celts have. it more or less make it pointless except the 10% city atack, and thats still not that specal or big of a deal...
     
  9. Mad2rix

    Mad2rix Warlord

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    Japanese - Tokugawa would be one of the toughest civs to fight when it comes to pre-emptive strike to take down or capture their cities because of their aggressive and protective traits. A gunpowder units with Free combat I, City Defense I, and Drill I is a dangerous combination including the mighty MECH INFANTRY! unless every players know how to play it smart.
     
  10. Not.Bad

    Not.Bad Chieftain

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    That goes with my beef about the IGN article in general. I assumed since their was no Stable building mentioned, that it simply replaced the Barracks. You're probably right though, and I too am curious to it's effect.

    That seems largely useless then. It's not often in the early game that I have the population to devote to 4 scientists. I understand it could speed up a Academy rush build and all that, but even when I was devoting two to that purpose, they were quickly dismissed to get back to pressing matters, such as building my empire.

    Genghis and Tokugawa are the king warmongers true, and I love them both now. Khublai falling right behind, simply because creative makes a great early warmongering trait too. Speedy settlers win out though I guess. I'm pleased with all three, and they have to be my favourite civs now all together.
     
  11. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    There is another link that talks about something and the Stable comes up. There is no explanation about it or anything either though. I initially thought that it was a mistake, but now it looks like it wasn't.

    I guess it depends on your play style and whether you take advantage of it. Another way of looking at it is that in the late game you can have 2 extra scientists per city over everyone else.

    Watiggi
     
  12. Not.Bad

    Not.Bad Chieftain

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    Hmm I didn't think of it from a late game perspective. Allowing you 6 Scientists over 4, without Caste system. Still, underwhelming to me.
     
  13. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Oh ok. I generally think of the early game myself. I could make use of the extra 2 scientists if I had access to it. It would help a lot during the game. What would it be, 4 scientists without Caste System per city just by building one improvement? I could use the GP's for the tech easily. Peter will kick but with it I think (as he will produce double the GPP). Mind you, I don't play GP based games that much and when I do, I tend to rely on Caste System.
     
  14. Not.Bad

    Not.Bad Chieftain

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    Hmm I'm starting to see some advantages now.

    Namely with Stalin. Industrious -> Pyramids, UB for 4 scientists, giving 24 beakers is impressive. Using the GP's generated to continue teching under a financially constrained wartime, or being applied as academies.

    The synergy with Peter is obvious as well.

    Still, 4 population in the early game, that's 4 pop that could be developing cottages, or working mines for faster settlers/units. The pay off just seems to circumstancial for my tastes, with possibly too much cost.
     
  15. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    ...maybe it is 2 free scientists?

    Isabella has to build the Walls and then she can build her Citadel! That will mean that she will be defensively strong too. Once she builds the Citadel's, she can crank out the catapults with +2 xp.

    I tell you though, combining the Aggressive trait (half priced Barracks) with a -20% city maintanence and you have a fast early militarstic expanionist - the Zulu's! All they have to do is build a Barracks in a new city and they get +4 xp to all units (which add to the Combat promo the UU and other mele/gun powder units get), plus get -20% city maintanence. That will be a good game to play.
     
  16. necrolyte

    necrolyte Warlord

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    The Russian one will dominate in a city with Floodplains IMO. The surplus food could easily support the 2 scientists midgame.
     
  17. Not.Bad

    Not.Bad Chieftain

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    Can't be, that's the entire effect of the Great Library, available to every city, with no upgraded cost.

    I thought about this one as well, and I too find it a tad underwhelming, simply because with the Spiritual trait, Izzy is one of the few Civs to have no issue switching in and out of Vasalage/Theocracy for the +2 exp needed for the vital second promotion. On the other hand, she is the only early game Civ who can get a +10 exp unit out of the box (Barracks, Citadel, Vasalage, Theocracy), but it's on a artillery unit, the unit you sacrifice the most.


    A lot of what I said changed now, since I was following Civ Fanatics information on the Protective trait and misunderstood the Charismatic trait.

    Cyrus is right up there with Genghis, Kublai, and Tokugawa for Warmongering. Faster promotions and more generals can quickly catch up to the free promotions all together. Especially given his UU with it's massive withdrawal chance, and therefore lifespan.

    I'm also handing the title of greatest War Mongerer to Tokugawa, hands down. Unless they've changed the aggresive traits. Archery/Gunpowder units with Drill 1, Garrison 1, and Combat 1 Promotions is absolutely frightening. Then to be able to turn around and attack with Samurai's and Trebuchets? Ugh. Then you upgrade them to grenadiers, and you have Grenadiers with Drill I and City Raider promotions, who can Garrison effectively as well? Wow. I will be playing Tokugawa simply so I DON'T have to face him on the field.

    Shaka of the Zulus does look interesting. I wish he was Toku's old Aggresive-Organized though ^_^. Now THAT would have been interesting. The impi is still a spearman though, and a spearman is nothing against a garrisoned Axemen or Archer. Great Mongul stomper though, along with Alex.

    I would say either China leader is the midgame Tokugawa stopper though. 3 firststrike chances for their UU? Hot damn.
     
  18. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Good point.

    Believe me, having 3 promotions for a seige unit built in any city is a good thing. City Raider III catapults/trebuchets are powerful as they wont be sacrificial units. Very powerful.

    Yeah. Cyrus is another that quite frankly surprises me. I think the Charasmatic/Imperialistic trait is a killer war combo and I am blown away by the fact that Cyrus got it. Well, I am surprised anyone got it actually.

    I dunno. Drill I isn't that great to me. It is only a first strike chance and I think it will do bugger all. The benefit will be the fact that it wont need much to get Drill II. Another thing, a unit cannot get Drill I, City Garrison I and Combat I automatically. They will either get Combat I or Drill I/City Garrison I. But either way, Tokugawa gets a lot of promotions.

    I too will be very interested in whether the Aggressive trait is modified because the Combat promotion is really useless for Genghis if you want to play the way he did it in real life: All Cavelry. Maybe the Aggressive trait will just give 2 xp or something (the equivalent to a free promotion)?

    Yah! I can see a lot of first strikes with the free Drill I for the Cho-Ku-Nu's. 10 xp will get them Drill IV I believe :) Which I think means 6-9 first strikes I think.

    Watiggi
     
  19. Berrie

    Berrie Proud father

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    I was also wondering about the 'Stable' as a new type of building, but it seems that nobody knows the specifics about it?

    It now seems clear to me that this expansion will involve a whole new learning process in how to play the game. The basics remain the same, but the strategic options have changed significantly!
     
  20. Not.Bad

    Not.Bad Chieftain

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    I don't quite understand, I'm 99% sure that I've ordered up grenadiers with free combat 1 promotions, who could then select City Garrison 1. Did it mention somewhere in the article that the Protective and Aggresive traits are exclusive in that manner? How would that work? If it did, it seems very unfair to Tokugawa. Or do you mean that when a Samurai is upgraded to a Grenadier, it will not receive the drill 1 and garrison 1 promotion? The possibility has never come up before to say what would happen.

    I did over estimate drill 1, but on the other hand, it's a free promotion, and as you said, means taking drill 2 much more "accessible". Given that you get city garrison 1, out of the box, choosing drill 2 as your free barracks promotion is pretty sweet, 2 more exp and you get Garrison 2. That's a longbow, who out of the box has 2 first strike chances and Garrison 2. The 2 firststrike chances with massive defense bonus out of the box, almost assures it will survive enough attacks for another promotion. That's value for cost.
     

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