Latin....... the start of modern languages
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Tomoyo
Fate
Proto-Indo-European is the start of all modern European language.
And from what I know, the Romance languages are all just heavily dialectized versions of Vulgar Latin that separated from each other due to time, distance, and the dissolution of the Roman Empire.
Though English definitely has more of a Germanic influence (especially grammar-wise) than a Latin one. The basic words are almost all Germanic-- it's the ideas and things that Germanic words could not describe as well as the Latin ones that became Latin words.
And from what I know, the Romance languages are all just heavily dialectized versions of Vulgar Latin that separated from each other due to time, distance, and the dissolution of the Roman Empire.
Though English definitely has more of a Germanic influence (especially grammar-wise) than a Latin one. The basic words are almost all Germanic-- it's the ideas and things that Germanic words could not describe as well as the Latin ones that became Latin words.
Mirc
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Just a side note: Finnish and Basque aren't indo-european.
scherbchen
well that can´t be good
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sorry, but basque (and catalan) aren't really what springs to the layman's mind when you talk about these things. heck... i learned last year tha Rumanian was a Romance language! kind of figures, given the name, sure. It is not a disregard for either language that has not been mentioned. Ask anybody in the street what is a Romance language.... answers will be (usually) Italian, Spanish, French, *pause* , Portuguese, *pause*, *long pause*.... it is really not necessary to be a linguist to participate in these debates. imho.
I just pointed out that not all modern European languages are indo-European, because some people don't know it. All the big ones off course are.
scherbchen
well that can´t be good
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I know. I did not mean to offend. Just wanted to throw in that usually you are talking about the big guns as regards to Romance languages. While Basque for example has been the pleasuredome for linguists since its rediscovery it does not really have impact on Romance studies (I might have missed that though, my bad in that case).
Your point is valid, however, and noted. Not all european languages are grandchildren of latin or germanic or any language predating these. That is one of the kinks of linguistics
sorry if I came across as rude. I should have phrased it differently.
Your point is valid, however, and noted. Not all european languages are grandchildren of latin or germanic or any language predating these. That is one of the kinks of linguistics
sorry if I came across as rude. I should have phrased it differently.
Tomoyo
Fate
Oops, I knew that Finnish was in a separate language family, just figured that it led back to PIE. 
I remember reading something about some scientists trying to piece together a "Proto-World" language, since the words for "one," "two," and "no" seem to be similar across the world. Then again, there are those who believe that language arose separately and simultaneously in two parts of the world (the Euro-Afro-Middle East, and Asia, which migrated to the Americas).
I remember reading something about some scientists trying to piece together a "Proto-World" language, since the words for "one," "two," and "no" seem to be similar across the world. Then again, there are those who believe that language arose separately and simultaneously in two parts of the world (the Euro-Afro-Middle East, and Asia, which migrated to the Americas).
Mirc
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As well as Hungarian, Turkish (obvious, but since Turkey is partially in Europe why not?), and all the Tartar languages in Russia and Ukraine aren't Indo-European either.
No, not at all, it just sounded like you had misunderstood my post. I wasn't offended
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Although Hungarian is loosely connected to Finnish and Estonian, isn't it? IIRC, the Magyars came from somewhere in the Baltic coast region, which used to be Finno-Ugric speaking before the Slavic expansion.
Mirc
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Exactly, and neither of those is Indo-European.
Some linguists even tried to connect this family with the Turkic languages, actually, but not enough evidence was found (plus there's the annoying stress rule that's exactly the opposite in Turkish and Hungarian - in Hungarian the stress is always on the first syllable, without exception, while in Turkish the great majority of the word have it on the last).Slavic languages are, though, of course.
Oops, I knew that Finnish was in a separate language family, just figured that it led back to PIE.
I remember reading something about some scientists trying to piece together a "Proto-World" language, since the words for "one," "two," and "no" seem to be similar across the world. Then again, there are those who believe that language arose separately and simultaneously in two parts of the world (the Euro-Afro-Middle East, and Asia, which migrated to the Americas).
It's all pissing into the wind at the moment. The problem is we have no accepted way of establishing links that far back. We've probably had complex language capacity (syntax and grammar) for about 150 000 years and we've not even pieced together languages back for 10 000 years yet.
The problem is, as you move into the more distant past, and analyse more and more languages, the signal-to-noise ratio on similarities gets higher, and it's virtually impossible to tell what is and is not actually a genuine relationship instead of random chance.
Personally I think that languages probably aren't all related in any demonstrable way. Language changes too much even over shorter periods of time.
Bast
Protector of Cats
It started the evolution of modern romance - French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese etc... - languages but that's all.
Zhuge_Liang
The greatest strategist
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Specify your word "etc.". Does this include english?
Bast
Protector of Cats
Not really because English is not a romance language. Latin has influenced English but it wasn't the start of that modern Germanic language nor entirely responsible for its evolution.
The one thing about Latin's influence on English is that it was forced. A lot of words were borrowed and the grammar was forced to comply to Latin. It wasn't a natural evolution like in the Romance languages.
Which is why they say that if take out all the Latin in English one won't be able to utter a proper sentence but that's only because it was forced to become that way.
The first change to Anglo-Saxon (Old English) came about with the introduction of Christianity into Britain whereby Latin words came into the vocabulary through ecclesiastical means. The next big change for English was through Old French by way of the Norman Conquest. It was during the Renaissance and the centuries following that period that Latin, and to a lesser extent Greek (Latinised), became more important than ever.
Bast
Protector of Cats
Yes, I agree. It just doesn't work imo. If you know a bit of German, you'll find how remarkably similar the two languages' grammars are. This despite the fact that German retains declensions. However, the big difference, of course, is in the vocabulary.
scherbchen
well that can´t be good
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Actually, as I said earlier in this thread, the vocabulary isn't all that different as long as you stick to basic words referring to everyday concepts and objects. A surprisingly long list. Probably easier to spot for a German than for a native English speaker.
Sofista
Deity
Heh, I recall a test I had in an English school for foreigners. We had to guess the meaning of supposedly "uncommon" English words. I was paired with a Swiss guy, who couldn't guess one (German speaker - wonderful drinking buddy), but I rampaged through the test.
They were all Latin-rooted words that had a more common Anglo-Saxon synonim; between my native Italian and Latin learned in school, I knew them all...
In fact I sometimes think Romance-speakers in English can offen sound stuffy because, given an alternative, I know I'd prefer the more familiar-looking one, which is also however the most 'literary' one. A concept like 'polysyllabic prose' is not easy to grasp for your average Mediterranean, simply because Romance languages are full of long words. It actually took me some time to realise it was a (mild) panning.
They were all Latin-rooted words that had a more common Anglo-Saxon synonim; between my native Italian and Latin learned in school, I knew them all...
In fact I sometimes think Romance-speakers in English can offen sound stuffy because, given an alternative, I know I'd prefer the more familiar-looking one, which is also however the most 'literary' one. A concept like 'polysyllabic prose' is not easy to grasp for your average Mediterranean, simply because Romance languages are full of long words. It actually took me some time to realise it was a (mild) panning.
Mirc
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Hahaha absolutely the same happens to me!
In England, I had some kind of test to check how well we know the meaning of ancient French words which entered English a long time ago. The same as in your story happened - they were all words that existed and were actually extensively used in modern Romanian. In fact, in an English text I can spot the Latin words by checking for which ones I need a translation and which I can understand on the spot. And the same with syllables happens to me, what is percieved in English as a long word is usually a short word for me. 
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