Leader Improvements

[mystikx21]

England wouldn't have +2 to embarked, it would be +2 to naval units. These shouldn't be overlapping and should play distinctly enough (Denmark uses raiders and pillages heavily to dominate the coast, England uses ships to dominate the sea). I'd rather have movement than XP, but I'd be fine with some XP bonus involved.

Longbows don't keep the extra range because it isn't a promotion on the unit in the mod.

I think the Indonesian civilian embarking should be fine. Polynesia still gets to cross oceans and use military units for it. I agree Conquistadors shouldn't get the siege promotion, some other promo for combat use would be fine that doesn't overlap Songhai.

 

[Ahriman]

I'm a bit concerned about Civs stepping on each others toes too much. Denmark is the civilization that has +2 embarked movement and if we give that to England as well it makes them less unique.

This is a fair point. Could England have fast embarked movement for just civilians (workers, settlers, great people), and naval experience? That would help make England a naval and vast-empire civ kept safe by the Great Fleet, while leaving nasty amphibious melee units for the Danes.
But I think there should be some movement bonus for embarked units. "Sun never sets" has great flavor in having a big scattered colonial empire - but that is frustrating if even settlers move very slowly.

My concern with the extra experience is that I prefer UAs that give me something I couldn't just get through basic gameplay. More experience I can get from fighting (especially barbs) or from barracks buildings. It's much harder to get faster ships, so that is a more unique advantage.

Steam Mill is one of the top UBs in the game.

Really? I find it a bit meh. Though I haven't played England lately: do the early steam mills trigger an Ideology in the same way that factories do? If so then its fine.

I would disagree with changing it for all civs though because then wide, large civs would gain huge advantages over small, tall civs.

I'm not sure how this follows. Wide is not the same as lots of puppets. And before BNW, there was no per-city science penalty, wide empires were constrained mostly by happiness.
I'm relatively agnostic between a Venice-specific fix and a general change for all puppets - it depends on which is technically easier to implement. I suspect the dummy-building that cancels puppet science penalties for Venice is probably the easiest solution.

 

[jwerano]

The problem with Venice is that puppet cities hurt your science rate, and Venice has no way to combat this.

Venice overcomes the science penalty and gets signifcant science from puppets but not until late in the game when they can purchase Research Labs or if they get order and +25% science from factories.

Venice compensates for low science by being extremely rich and by getting more policies than other civs if you care to purchase theatre's, monuments, and get culture boosting religious beliefs in your puppets but I agree it couldnt hurt to reduce their science penalty somewhat since so many other civs have been strengthened already.

I'd definitely prefer the science penalty reduction to apply to venice only.

England does unlock Ideologies with steam mill thus getting their ideology a dozen or so technologies early.

 

[Myrion]

Has something changed since the last time I played Venice or can you use the MoV like a GMer as well? If you use them in that manner, you will further increase the incredible diplomatic power of Venice. Granted, it's been a while since I last played them, but I remember being fairly competitive as far as science was concerned.

 

[EricB]

I've played a full game with Venice before and won big, but the way that you play Venice is different than every other civilization in the game.

When I played as Venice, I just had the 1 city. I didn't acquire any city states because those cities would hurt my science rate. I bought up every city state in the game as an ally. They contributed science (a little bit). Venice was this massive city with huge borders extending way out there culturally. I never built buildings, but just bought them. I built military units and wonders only.

In every game that I've seen where Venice is an AI player they are always in last place in science and game score. Usually they are conquered by an aggressive neighbor. I never worry about them being a competitive neighbor. The AI just does not know how to play with them. I'm experimenting with ways to fix this so that they aren't always this bottom of the barrel civilization for AI players. Recently, I added Animal Husbandry as a starting tech for them so that they can build caravans right away.

 

[mystikx21]

That sounds like they need a fairly unique flavor setup to be played decently by the AI as a balanced opponent. Sufficient military units for defence/offence, heavy on trade and science, with happiness and culture less of an issue (perhaps), coalition alliances with CS and other AIs.

I don't think they should need a starting tech so much as an AI only effect or some mitigation of the puppets penalties in the mod for Venice-only.

 

[void_genesis]

Extending the idea for the Huns to get happiness/etc from razing....would it be possible to allow the Huns to also raze capitals and/or city states?

 

[EricB]

I've been playing with Assyria. Their unique ability mechanic seems broken. Anytime I conquer a city and that conquered civilization has a tech that I don't yet, then I gain a new tech. Even happens with city states. It should only happen for the first city conquered, not all cities.

 

[ShmooDude]

I thought it was supposed to be the first time per city, not per civ? Or am I misunderstanding your post.

 

[ExpiredReign]

The Assyrian trait is supposed to give you a tech if you capture a city from civ that has more techs than you.

So if your opponent is 5 techs in front of you and you take 5 of his cities you gain those 5 techs.

It is quite tricky to use effectively though, you need to be far enough advanced to have strong military units but not too advanced as to miss out on the bonus from the trait. It effectively means Assyria should always be tackling the front-runners to use their trait.

 

[EricB]

ExpiredReign,

If that's the case, then it's working as intended. Maybe the text needs to clarified then. I thought how it worked was that Assyria gained a tech when it conquered a city from a civilization that has a tech it didn't have already, but it would only gain from the very first city conquered and subsequent cities conquered gave no benefit. That makes them a very powerful civilization, but it's probably offset by other weaknesses. The Royal Library is pretty weak. It's a normal library with a great work slot. Their unique unit is pretty strong though but only lasts for a short time. That's why I normally play on marathon speed so that you can really use the units of every era. Unique units are more powerful if you get to use them longer.

 

[ExpiredReign]

I haven't the text in front of me, but that's how I used it.
As always I do not claim infallibility.

Agree with you about the Royal Library, that really should give more boost to your tech pursuit than just a Great Work slot. It was after all meant to be a way for Assyria to be a science leader.

 

[EricB]

A civ that I keep playing against (randomly selected) who always seem to be a tech leader is the Mayans. Their unique building provides a really big boost. They prioritize science. Unfortunately for them I was Assyria and conquered them and stole their techs

I also have slightly buffed the Iroquois and I played against them too. I gave them the ability to have a free Longhouse in every city. They were no longer a weak civilization. They were a beast to defeat militarily because they had so much production. The Iroquois were actually allied with me when we both attacked the Mayans on two fronts. They also managed to conquer the Russians. For once, the Iroquois weren't this weak little trivial civilization.

I play the game A LOT and civilizations that I routinely see be little pathetic backwards civilizations I'm trying to give a buff to to make them competitive. I think Byzantium might need something too because every time I see them they are weak. Morocco is usually weak too. I added an ability for all their units to have the Desert Power promotion but that didn't really help too much. Civilizations that have a start bias to start in bad terrain like deserts really need some strong effects to offset that.

 

[Hreat]

Really? I find it a bit meh. Though I haven't played England lately: do the early steam mills trigger an Ideology in the same way that factories do? If so then its fine.

Steam mills allow you to found an Ideology waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay earlier than normal, in addition to the general production boost from getting factories much earlier. They are awesome.

 

[Babri]

It is quite tricky to use effectively though, you need to be far enough advanced to have strong military units but not too advanced as to miss out on the bonus from the trait. It effectively means Assyria should always be tackling the front-runners to use their trait.

It is not that tricky IMO. In early game, you beeline for key military techs such as mathematics & iron working, this leaves you lacking in some techs but superior in military, then by conquest you can easily get all the techs you missed. I used this strategy when BNW was newly released, and believe me I was like 2 eras ahead of rest of the world on king difficulty.

Sent from my One V using Tapatalk

 

[EricB]

I've been pondering ways to fix Venice. Of every AI civ that I run into, Venice is always terrible. They are always way behind in science, tiny, and easily crushed. Human players can use them, but the AI just can't. They get twice as many trade routes, but they also don't get any city connections gold, which partially offsets their gold. I also wish trade routes would be scaled to give more science in later eras, but that's another issue.

Anyways, of the civilizations that are always bad, Venice tops the list, and the issue seems to be their lack of science. They just don't expand. Even when they get city states that are puppets, this doesn't help their science at all because puppets don't produce science. It actually drains their science even further making the Merchant of Venice unit a self-destructive unit (hurting Venice). I want to try out the idea of having tile improvements such as farms, mine, villages, pastures, plantations, camps, lumbermills, etc giving science in addition to their normal benefits. I know that Korea has this ability for farms already. I'm honestly not sure how it'll work. It seems kind of drastic and extreme I know, but the situation as it exists today is rather extreme. Typically if I discover Venice in the Renaissance Era (if they haven't already been conquered by a neighboring civilization) they are maybe 10 techs behind me and I'm not even in the tech lead. It's common for them to be 15 techs behind. So I want to experiment with it and see how it goes.

 

[Ahriman]

The biggest problem with Venice is the fact that puppets can't meaningfully help you with science. This has been discussed several times, and there was a general consensus in creating a workaround, probably with a dummy building that exists only for Venetian puppets that undoes the puppet science penalty.

 

[EricB]

So I've been playing a game today as Ethiopia with Venice as one of the AI players. It's marathon speed so it's a slow slog. Early Renaissance era right now. It's a large map with 10 players (9 AIs). Venice is doing pretty well for once with these new settings. They aren't the world leader. That would be Carthage at the moment. They are probably around 3rd right now and just conquered the Celts capital. I'm probably pretty close to tied with them. So on the first experiment with Venice it seems to be working.

I gave them basically 1 science per tile improvement. The basic effect of it is to have each citizen produce 2 science instead of 1 for Venice in their capital and for other puppet cities to produce 1 science per citizen. I think they started off pretty well. I'm concerned that they could start to lag behind as time goes on....we'll see.

 

[Eleanorea]

Hello Eric.
I'm not a native English speaker, so i hope you will understand my point

I love playing Venice, it really feels like a different civilization, and here are the major concerns i have with this civ :
- Most of the city states are too often poorly placed (in the middle of tundra/desert/ice titles), improving poorly over time, and making them a "No" for buying them.
- They often lack luxury/strategic resources. Too often, i see the same luxuries (one, maybe two maritime luxuries, whales usually), again making them a "do not buy". (As Venice, your regional bias is ocean, so we already have a higher probability to have maritime resources around).
Maybe a easy (?) fix would be to make city states share the same "resource's allocation algorithm" than normal civilization ? (You know, in the option panel, when looking for abundant/strategic placement/normal resources)
- Something i feel a little lackluster : you can't produce wonders in city state you bought. Wonders are an important part of a Civilization game, i always feel bad being restricted to Venice only, when constructing wonders. (No mountain near you ? no Machu Pichu for instance). Maybe a solution would be to allow construction in cities you buy? (similar to annexing a city). Or give a way for Venice to buy wonders at a high price? (200/300% the gold value of a wonder production cost ?)
- Science is a problem for Venice : the main capital plus 3/4 city states can't compete versus a 4/5 normal cities civilization.

I 'm using different mods, trying to fix this, so far, the results are ok
Scaling Great Merchant (BNW), Global - Venice Keeps Resources (v 1) and Global - City States Gifts (BNW) (v 3) greatly help Venice.
I have been toying with 'Minor Civs (v 1)' lately, i believe its a good way to help fixing the lack of resource diversity and/or poorly placed city states.
I'm also using More Luxuries and Optimized Resource Distribution (v 141), but I'm unsure if it's compatible with Communitas.

reform and rule seems to have some very nice ideas about fixing science for Venice with its patronage policy, but i m a total noob with xml and modding, so i can't update the code with what i want.
Maybe u can? Then i definitely would ask you to modify some files for me

Thank you for reading my Gibberish English

 

[EricB]

so an update on the game I've been experimenting with. It's now early modern era. Venice is still around. I've pull a few techs ahead of them (but just a few). Carthage is still the world leader and a few techs ahead of me. They probably have 30-40 cities. I'm Ethiopia and just have 4 and built that 4th one recently. Venice is #3 of 8 civilizations at the moment. Two of the starting 10 have been eliminated already, so Venice is doing alright for once. They probably have about 5 city states that they've taken over. The puppet cities are producing some science for them due to the change that I made. All farms, mines, villages, pastures, camps, fishing boats, quarries, wells, plantations, etc produce +1 science for Venice.

They aren't blowing everyone away like you'd imagine would happen with an advantage like that. For once, they aren't way behind.

Also, on a side note, I'm quite pleased with the other mod changes I've tried out to allow tall empires the ability to compete with wide empires. Mainly, I pushed all national wonders back to unlocking in the medieval and renaissance eras. That way you can't just build them early in the ancient or classical eras when you haven't really expanded very much yet. A cheat strategy is to build the heroic epic and national college early (and others), then expand like crazy afterwards. Pushing them back to a later era makes this harder to do.

The other major buff to tall empires I've deployed is re-working the Rationalism/Knowledge tree. Actually renamed it to something else and re-designed it. In my current game, I've filled that tree out because it's exactly tailored to the tall strategy I'm using in this current game. I can't quite remember every policy from memory but I'll take a stab at it....

Opener: +4 science for national wonders (remember that with national wonders later in the tech tree, this is worthless to a wide empire)

Policy #1: +2 science for specialists (unchanged)

Policy #2: +2 free defense units. +50% production for castles, arsenals, and military bases. +2 food on castles, arsenals, and military bases. (This policy really helps you build an impenetrable fortress of giant cities.)

Policy #3: Double yields from great person tile improvements. (I also altered academies to yield 6 science, manufactories 9 production, and custom houses 12 gold, so this policy doubles those numbers to 12 science, 18 production, and 24 gold. Currently I have this massive production city with maybe 5 manufactories each yielding 18 production per tile. Awesome policy)

Policy #4: +1 food on farms. (This sounds weak, but in reality it causes grassland tiles to yield +5 food and farmed plains +4 food with +1 production. Tall empires have limited land space so maximizing the yield on the few tiles is critical.)

Policy #5: +1 free great engineer. +50% great people rate. (This one can help if you're trying to really get a wonder quickly. Also, it's just another multiplier on that great people rate. Excellent if combined with the one on the tradition finisher and the policy in aesthetics for cultural great people. Also helps having national epic and gardens.)

Finisher: +1 free great merchant, great scientist, and great engineer.

That policy tree allows a tall empire to be able to compete with larger empires. It's how in my current game the empire with 4 cities is technologically even with the empire with 40 cities. They do have a much larger military than I do, which is why I need that impenetrable fortress that would be a nightmare to invade.