Leader Traits Replaced with CivBonuses

[Psychic_Llamas]

fair enough.

So the question now is, how many civ traits whould there be per trait, and should generic simialritys (the elven traits you mentioned) be classed as one?

PS i dont like the units costing population though, the pops are going to be tiny as it is.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Righty oh then, well i think we can start this again

 

[Masada]

i think we should employ lets call them cultural traits... when we need to ie Elves would share some broad traits, population costs (which im not going to defend here but i will) and population growth etc. These are broad elven traits and really only apply to elves, if there are differences we can just change them. But this gives us 3 races with similar abilities, reducing the learning curve, simplifying the amount of work in terms of code that we have to do and keeps within Warhammer canon. Basically unless there are major differences, like for instance if Dark Elves breed faster then we can just change that (that was a hypothetical example btw).

In essence we codify what we can and what we cant we dont try to force into line we just work with it. To answer the amount of traits per civ, i would say as many as gives a different playing style and as few. Elves will have minor differences in the core mechanics, ie their cultural traits, and the specialisation stuff weve talked about

For woodelves this would be
+Woodland Defender (
+Oak of ages always spawns in the capital city etc
+gets better forest stuff
-no mines no clearing etc

This would be three, but they are broadly Woodelven and since i dont see us reusing Woodland Defender on any other team (although Beastmen might have an evil version) and no mines or clearing, or better forest improvements (beastmen yet again might have some similarity in regards to this trait) so we could just for the sake of simplicity call it "Wood Elven Lore" or something

This would effectively give us two traits, "Wood Elven Lore" and "Elven Culture " (or whatever we call it) one would be unique, one would be exactly the same as the other "Elven Culture" is to the other Elven civs...

So any High Elven and Dark Elven civ would share "Elven Culture" with the wood elves, exactly the same traits which we will use to save us time and their own indipendant ones (which will be whatever we balance them to).

Humans wouldnt need to follow the same traits for instance i dont see there being any "Human culture" trait that would be to wide. But i do see the possibility of having broad human similarities, ie humans would grow at the normal civ growth rate, recruit units (except for Chaos) from hammers etc

I do see Ind, Cathay and Nippon holding at least some similar traits, ie reduced unit maintanence (all 3 of them have massive armies), they might all build units from food not shields but each of them having widely different abilities. Nippon would not be able to build peasants or cheap units only "good" units but there buildable units would be better through promotions or something (like Japan in Rhyes), Ind would probably concentrate on peasant type units or units that move well in Jungle and fight well in it, but no where else (like India in Rhyes which is cut of from most of the rest of the world, in ours though it should be beset by barbs from out of our worlds Thailand and Laos as well as from the north and the wastes). Cathay should be fighting off constant barbarian invasions and it's abilities should reflect that. But broadly there should be some traits in common, might only be reduced maintance costs and units built from food but this will tie them into together.

The undead would have some traits in common. Control of units and no marches etc. These would be the same regardless, so they can broadly be incorperated into both, the indipendant traits would reflect the differences, Khermi use walking statues and dont mind living people, the Von Carstiens are bloody thirsty insane monsters with vampiric leaders... etc

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i agree with all that Masada.

Different cultural groups could be (names are examples):

Elven Lore (High elf, Wood Elf, Dark Elf)
--- +Bonus research in the first age.
--- +Bonus +2 to health for every city
--- +all elves move a base 2 squares
--- -25% to unit production
--- -High upkeep for units
--- -Cities grow slower (+100% time... their major drawback and weakness...population)

Dwarven Lore (Dwarf, Chaos Dwarf)
--- +Bonus research in the first age.
--- +all mineral resources provide +1 extra happyness (Gems, gold, iron, copper, gromril, ithilmar etc)
--- +Dwarf workes can build improvements on Peaks (but not roads) and get the 'dwarven mine' and 'dwarven quarry' improvements (+1 hammer each)
--- +all units magic resistant
--- -50% attack and defend penalty when in forest or jungle
--- -High upkeep for units
--- -Cities also grow slower (+80% time, again their major drawback and weakness is population)

Oriental Tradition(Ind, Cathay, Nippon)
--- + -20% unit upkeep
--- 10% less sickness from population?
--- +workers work +25% faster (due to there being more of them, (also increse the number of modles in worker modles))
--- -???

Old World Customs(Empire, Kislev, Tilea, Estalia, Bretonnia)
--- +2 better relations with all other Old World civs.
--- +1 happiness from military units stationed in cities (max 3?)
--- + 25% less build time for granery, court house?
--- -2 worse relations with greenskin civs
--- - 2 extra unhappiness if no units stationed in city

Greenskin Animosity(Orcs, Gobblins, Hobgblin heg.)
--- + special, early building (replace training ground) Battle Arena, enables units stationed in city to duel to death in order to gain EXP (as with bloodboul stadium)
--- + very cheap units (25% less cost and build time)
--- + x free units according to number of cities.
--- +2 better relations with all other greenskin civs
--- - Animosity mechanism applies (if we get it working again) (this is a major setback)
--- -2 worse relations with Old World civs.

Undead Curse (Khemri, Vampire Counts, Lhamia)
--- +all units unaffected by moral, fear, terror or any kind of psychology effect.
--- +living units killed in civ's boarders have chance of being raised as undead (20%?)
--- +workers can build 'grave yard' improvement to replace cottage, upgradeable improvement (Grave -> Grave Yard -> Cemetary -> Crypt (or such, perhaps renamed for khemri and Lhamia)) which has increasing chance of spawing skelleton warriors when enemies are near by. can also be razed by magic users to build more units.
--- -units have a range of movment. cannot move more than 3 squares from civ's boarders, or from the line of sight of a spell caster otherwise they get a negative healing promotion which end up killing them.
--- -enemy cities captured are reduced to 1 population and some units are spawned.
--- -cities only gain population through the sacrificing of units in cities.

New World Customs (Lizardmen, Amazon)
--- + cities get no unhealthyness from jungle, swamp or floodplain.
--- + Jungle provides +1 food and +1 hammer, workers can build cottages in jungle without having to clear them.
--- +all units get double movement and +25% attack and defence when in jungle.
--- +jungle provides +1 happiness.
--- -workers cannot build improvemetns other than on strategic or bonus resources, roads and jungle cottages.
--- -units get negative healing promotion when on tundra, ice, or desert (not flood plains or oases, they are fine on those) (not adapted to such harsh climates)
--- -no external trade routes.

Chaos Taint (Hung, Kurgan, Norsaca, Beasts of Chaos)
--- +4 better relations with all other Chaos Tainted civs.
--- +Chaos terrain provides +1 happiness (plain of bones etc)
--- + ????
--- -4 worse relations with all civs that are not Chaos Tainted civs.
--- -cannot trade with non Chaos taint civs
--- - ????


which leaves the oddball Ogres, Skaven, and Araby... they could all have theri own trait, but it would be good if they could be grouped into other groups. perhaps we can plonk Ogres into a mountain dwelling trait with Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs? but CD dont really live in Mountains anymore (plains of Zharr Nagrund).... we could group Araby into the old world group, but their culture is too different i think. and skaven could go in Chaos Taint...

 

[Masada]

hmmm the traits are abit complex... but they tend to broadly fit which is a good thing

Ill raise my concerns:

Elves: This is going to be a balancing issue and one we cannot possibily resolve now.. but i have a sneaking suspiscion that

--- +all elves move a base 2 squares
and -25% unit construction speed

Will still make Elven units overbalanced... now dont beat me to death here... but that is giving elves tanks in the first age, 2 speed you can run circles around everything... and only having -25% build speed...

Situation: You have a city near 2 enemy ciites with reasonable garrisons (larger than yours) you have cats and swords and a few archers for defence... what do you do? declare war... wait for your opponent to move out and attack (comps will do that) then charge your cats and swords forwards and knock both of those cities out quickly... blitzkrieg in Warhammer (although that might balance out hte other problems)

hmmm but im led to believe tha -25% will be inadequete and that population cost is a more elegant way of limiting elven capabilities easier to measure if you will... population will almost regardless of food intake limit the ability of Elven cities to spew out units quickly.. (which combined with the extra tech and better units a scary proposition)

But ill leave that to the balancing Gremlins

Agree with Dwarves (although giving them food from peaks would make sense, ie Inca in Rhyes)

The Orential tradition should be unit spam simply because Barbs will be a problem, with Choas spewing into Cathay from the North and South from khuresh, Ind will be attacked from Khuresh and from whatever is in the Dark Lands and Nippon will need to be sidelined somehow... probably due to attacks from the North (think the Ainu in Japan equivalent in Nippon) and probably from Elithis... whatever's there.. (Dragons since they can fly?)

Old World Civs: Drop the +25% build time on those buildings (we can think of something better), extra relations is kind of silly (and not in the spirit of Warhammer) and worse relations with the Greenskins... seems kinda tacked on

We need to think up on those three but otherwise perfect

Greenskins should other than other Greenskins suffer like -4 penalty or more... but otherwise good =D

Undead is good

The New World Stuff is good

Chaos will take a bit of thought but otherwise good

Leave the oddballs dont get tempted to lump them, leave them be... they will be the most difficult to incorperate but so be it... however:

Araby and Kislev can share a summoning style thing
Ogres can borrow some Greenskin traits and have the rest as thier own
Skaven are always going to be oddball lets leave them for the moment.. but they would share some of Dwarven traits, ie ability to get food from mountains (well from anywhere really) etc

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i think you may have missunderstood me, by -25% unit production i mean that to be a penalty, ie it would take 25% longer to build units (what i should have said was 25% extra build time for elven units, that was my mistake )

i agree that they are a bit complex, but if we can get them to work i dont think it matters if they are little complex, it would add flavour (although if its too complex it will be overkill.)

food from peaks for dwarves is a good idea. im thinking terraces and mushroom farms

true about the old world...

Greenskins should other than other Greenskins suffer like -4 penalty or more... but otherwise good =D

sorry, i dont understand this

true about Kislev and Araby, they are kinda polar opposites in what they summon, but the style is the same (ice vs Fire)

 

[Masada]

I know its a penalty what im stressing is that even at -25% build speed the 2 movement would more than make up for it. That combined with the extra tech speed in the first two ages would make an elven juggernaught. Think about it this with a tech advantage your shield production would be well above that of your computers, (having had more time for your workers to optimize) the -25% would be redundant before it even came into being. Now with an army that would concievable be numerically equal to an opponent (and with a player in control, the common sense to mass up) you have the equivalent of a Civ4BTS tank stack... two movement you can outrun and destory most enemy units and take cities ridicously quickly (and combine that with Commando and bleh the game is over).

Dwarves are difficult in a way because we are not exaclty sure how they feed themselves, in Warhammer they tend to have pasturres in the lowlands which they tend every now and then and caves with fish and mushrooms in thier holds... i think terraces which provide extra shields and food would be a way to counter this... i also think Dwarven units should be able to traverse mountains (as should Ogres and Skaven)

As to the Greenskin comment... Greenskins should get negative modifiers to everyone else other than Greenskins...

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

ok, i see what you mean bout the elves. so what if we increase the build time by 33%, or even 50% (i think 50% is overkill, but anyway).
but for the sake of argument, the base 2 movement is really not that big a bonus, its like giving units mobility 1, that dosnt make them an undefeatalbe force, just a really annoying fast force.

If you like a different penalty (or additional penalty) could be less strength than usual, ie -1 strength to all units but Plus 1 first strike.
(ie normal warriror is 3 strength, 1 movment; elven warrior is 2 strength, 2 movements +1 first strike.
the first strike gives them a little edge, and fits the role of speedy tricksy elves, the less strength shows their fragile nature, and the 2 speed shows, again their speed.

But, i think the only way we will know what is balanced in reality is to test it for real.

 

[solwen]

Elven Lore (High elf, Wood Elf, Dark Elf)
--- +Bonus research in the first age.
--- +Bonus +2 to health for every city
--- + overall stronger units (they are elves nothing more to say )
--- +all elves move a base 2 squares
--- malus 50% to unit production
--- -High upkeep for units
--- -Cities grow slower (+100% time... their major drawback and weakness...population)

Dwarven Lore (Dwarf, Chaos Dwarf)
--- +Bonus research in the first age.
--- +all mineral resources provide +1 extra happyness (Gems, gold, iron, copper, gromril, ithilmar etc)
--- +Dwarf workes can build improvements on Peaks (but not roads) and get the 'dwarven mine' and 'dwarven quarry' improvements (+1 hammer each)
--- overall stronger units (da stunties be tough)
--- +all units magic resistant
--- 25% attack malus when in forest or jungle
--- -High upkeep for units
--- malus 25% to unit production
--- -Cities also grow slower (+75% time, again their major drawback and weakness is population)

Oriental Tradition(Ind, Cathay, Nippon)
--- + -20% unit upkeep
--- 10% less sickness from population
--- +workers work +25% faster (due to there being more of them, (also increse the number of modles in worker modles))
--- + can levy more troops
--- - overall weaker late units (their technology suck compared to the other human civs ... number is the key for them)

Old World Customs(Empire, Kislev, Tilea, Estalia, Bretonnia)
--- +2 better relations with all other Old World civs.
--- +1 happiness from military units stationed in cities (max 3?)
--- + 25% less build time for granery, court house?
--- -5 worse relations with greenskin civs, skavens and chaos civs
--- -2 worse relations with elves and ogre civs
--- - 2 extra unhappiness if no units stationed in city
--- - chaos religion has higher chance of spreading in their cities


Greenskin Animosity(Orcs, Gobblins, Hobgblin heg.)
--- + special, early building (replace training ground) Battle Arena, enables units stationed in city to duel to death in order to gain EXP (as with bloodboul stadium)
--- + very cheap units (25% less cost and build time)
--- + x free units according to number of cities.
--- +2 better relations with all other greenskin civs
--- + can levy more troops
--- + no war wearyness
--- + bonus to pillaging
--- - Animosity mechanism applies (if we get it working again) (this is a major setback)
--- -4 worse relations with all civs.
--- - peace wearyness grows overtime (as for war wearyness of the other civs)

Undead Curse (Khemri, Vampire Counts, Lhamia)
--- +all units unaffected by moral, fear, terror or any kind of psychology effect.
--- +living units killed in civ's boarders have chance of being raised as undead (20%?)
--- +workers can build 'grave yard' improvement to replace cottage, upgradeable improvement (Grave -> Grave Yard -> Cemetary -> Crypt (or such, perhaps renamed for khemri and Lhamia)) which has increasing chance of spawing skelleton warriors when enemies are near by. can also be razed by magic users to build more units.
--- -units have a range of movment. cannot move more than 3 squares from civ's boarders, or from the line of sight of a spell caster otherwise they get a negative healing promotion which end up killing them.
--- -enemy cities captured are reduced to 1 population and some units are spawned.
--- -cities only gain population through the sacrificing of units in cities.

New World Customs (Lizardmen, Amazon)
--- + cities get no unhealthyness from jungle, swamp or floodplain.
--- + Jungle provides +1 food and +1 hammer, workers can build cottages in jungle without having to clear them.
--- +all units get double movement and +25% attack and defence when in jungle.
--- +jungle provides +1 happiness.
--- + swamps act as oases
--- -workers cannot build improvemetns other than on strategic or bonus resources, roads and jungle cottages.
--- -units get negative healing promotion when on tundra, ice, or desert (not flood plains or oases, they are fine on those) (not adapted to such harsh climates)
--- -no external trade routes and ressources trade agreement

Chaos Taint (Hung, Kurgan, Norsaca, Beasts of Chaos)
--- +2 better relations with all other Chaos Tainted civs.
--- +Chaos terrain provides +1 happiness (plain of bones etc)
--- + no war wearyness
--- + bonus to pillaging
--- -4 worse relations with all civs that are not Chaos Tainted civs.
--- - cannot trade with non Chaos taint civs
--- - peace wearyness

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

most of those changes are good Solwen but others dont seem to fit.

firstly i dont see elves as tough, they are fast and dextrous but not strong. instead of extra strength i say 1 less strength, 1 extra first strike, +5% chance to retreat, and 2 base movement.

the oriental weaker late units thing is good for Ind, and nippon but not for Cathay. Cathay should have peasant based military in the first few eras, and in later eras i should shipt to advanced weaponry and seige. they would probably have some very advanced rocket based cannons (like big firework guns because china invented fireworks). they also invented the crossbow (well real life china did) and in Warhammer the crossbow is a fairly sophisticated piece of weaponry.
so maybe the different unit strengths should be diversified in the civ specific bonuses not generic.

Perhaps we should steer away from relations modifyers in civ bonus design. like masada said, we can come up with better ideas than that.

the faster spread of chaos religion in Old world cities beats me is it because they are more susceptable to chaos cults? id prefer to say that the chaos religion provide severe unhappiness and unhealthyness (+2 unhappiness and +2 unhealthyness) if it is not the state religion, but not increased spread rate, becasue then we would always end up with chaos driven AI Reikland and that dosnt really fit with the fluff

greenskins peace wearyness is good, another huge problem for them along with animosity.

IDEAperhaps we can also have captured cities being destroying to provide extra EXP to victorious units, or a lot of extra cash? or a 'Loot' unit that can be moved to a greensking city to act as a minor great merchant??.

IDEA: perhaps levying should be left to other civs. maybe Greenskins should get lots of units from new 'events' that could make barbs join their cause?


other than that they all look pretty good

 

[solwen]

Yes about cathay i was not sure too. Perhaps we will tune them better in their own uniques features (like the reikland one).

For elves, yes they are not resiliant and especially tough but strenght is not the only statistic in an army power (apart from the greenskins of course ).
Skills are as much ,if not more, important than physical strenght. Indeed what is the use of pure strenght against an enemy you can't even touch or see ?

An unit strenght also represent his discipline and tactical brilliance of his officers. Elves soldiers train for centuries in their fields of activity and they have an intuitive understanding (+ their high intelligence) of the art of warfare. Not even speaking of their top quality equipment.

For example, a "basic" young elf spearmen may only be a levy but he has been levied maybe 10 or 15 times in his life and has seen perhaps more battles than an old grizzled human veteran knight.
Another example: A swordmaster of hoeth is frail and weak compared to a norse raider. But as the norse gots his body cut from the head to the groin by the razor sharp sword of the weakling elf, did his physical toughness helped him block (and even see) the incoming attack ?

That's why i think elves units should be overall better (and to balance the fact that they produce units very slowly).

But again it's just IMHO.

For the orcs destroying cities they take why just not doing it simple ? They get more cash and some slaves units(and the enemy city loose 2 or 3 pop points)?

For the chaos religion spreading thing, yes humans are the one more prone to chaos worship (humans fomr the bulk of the mortal chaos armies). Perhaps make the chaos religion like the "dragon cult" of FFh for non chaotic civs (give malus etc etc...)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

well, i wouldnt mind increasing the strength of elven units (i love elves so anything to make the better )but i dont want to overpower them. the only way we will know what will fit is to test it in game and balance from there.

extra cash and slaves from captured cities for greenskins is good.

chaos as dragon cult would be great, i like that idea that should probably go in the religion design thread though.

 

[Masada]

A New Outline for the Older Races

I agree with Solowen... Elven and Dwarven armies havent really changed in 2,000 years (okay Elves are not using Dragons as much... and Dwarves are using cannons and handguns) but the bulk of the army remains the same... i.e Grudgebearers etc

With that in mind i dont see why we dont make Elven and Dwarven units stay the at the same strength throughout the game.... no unit upgrades once they are built and no new upgrades to reasearch.... so you end up with an army which has remianed the same from the start of the game...

putting these changes into the mod

Silver Helms should be able to be built right at the start and still be good... like str 10 (or whatever they are) but Elves should have to hold onto them for the whole game... so the empire player starting with str 3 units should next get str 5 etc as he advances down the tech tree... but you Silver helms will remain str 10 for the whole game (except for promotions) as your younger enemy races steadily advance and grow in unit strength...

Here's an interesting propostion... proper Dragon riders of Calendor (with the dragon) could be created through a wonder which after X amount of Dragon riders were produced stopped making them... leaving you with X amount of Dragons but never able to produce new ones...

This would show the steady decline of the Elves and Dwarves at the start with better armed and armoured units you would dominate the younger races... (mind you... you would more likely be fighting the other older races...we could figure out a way to leverage that result) so you watch your strength begin to collapse steadily in the later game... as the younger races begin to get cannons and other weapons to rival yours... and because of a diminising number of troops (caused by having more expensive units, which through techs could get steadily more expensive to build and maintain)

CivIV Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire has an elegant way of making stuff more expensive btw: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=183804&page=10

How this would play

This i feel would have a much more cinematic way of playing... and turn the game on its head... by allowing a player to create a massive empire... ie Dwarven Empire of Old and the High Elven Empire of Old.. then begin to start to decline as you stop being able to make certain units and as dedidance and age begin to show and limit your ability to fight back... and as your people grow less warlike and more civilized you begin to lose the ability to make masses of good units... steadily they get more expensive and national limits (could) be placed on them... so you start to lose territory and begin to fall back towards Ulthulan and the Worlds Edge Mountains... as the younger races begin to overrun your old territory and begin to force you back...

Lizardmen

Lizardmen could be made more interesting by having Spawning Pools only in their starting cities.... and being unable to build new ones... (maybe random events might allow it) but otherwise as you begin to have to fight masses of barbs and the younger races (Amazons, Norse etc) you begin to see you Empire collapse as you begin to move away from all Saurus armies with masses of Slann mage priests... and begin to head towards weaker Skinks and weaker Slann Mages and more Skink Priests... as a random chance of having a pool dry up and Slann based natrual attrition (i.e you get Slann through a wonmder which begins to decline... it stops producing Gen 1 Slann... then goes to Gen 2 Slann and then Gen 3 then Gen 4 (all the while the Slann are getting weaker as they spawn) and eventually it stops making them... so Slann become a scarce resource one you do not want to waste because you cannot replace them)...

How This Fits Into The Scenario and the Mod

So you end up with the 3 largest Empires (including for this mod... Dark Elves, High Elves and Wood Elves, Chaos Dwarves, Dwarves, Southlands Lizardmen and Lustrian Lizardmen) all begin to fall apart steadily as wonders which automatically spawn at the start of the game (and im seeing this mod going increasingly towards a scenario which is partially in the new mod) begin to fall into disrepair and eventually stop producing your best units... and as new techs which increase shield rates in the new races dinishes the amount of shields you get... and as units begin to age as the young races begin to build even more deadly weapons

How this might actually play out in a scenario situation

So you end up with an inverse growth pattern for the Old Races... as you advance up the tech tree you steadily begin to lose sheild production (somehow) as as attrition begins to sap your strength as the turns progress... so while your declining as your Empire is being eaten away... i.e Brettionians retake Brettionia as the Elven colonies thier are left undefended because of the Dark Elf and High Elf Conflict.. the Brettionians just beat the few superior defenders with a horde and re-conquer Brettionia... the Empire never had many Elven Cities... (and because its quite distant from the coast and Ulthualuan for the most part it probably wont be conquered... of course having barb pirates in Marienburgs region would limit Elven expansion.... The Great Forest as well as constant war with the Orcs in the bad lands will drain the Dwarves and keep them distant from most of the old world... and the Lizardmen will be constantly attacked by monsters and barbs... so they cant expand all that much (not that, that will help since they cant build new spawning pools) Dark Elves are limited by masses of barbs, chaos and monsters... and Wood Elves are limited by themselves... they could offcourse have some far flung settlements (but this could be limited by only allowing their cities to be built in forests)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

well, i might have missunderstood you, but personally i dont think thats a terrebly fun mechanic. i dont want to play as elves only to watch them decay the more i play. i want to get an empire through sweat blood and tears, not just starting with strength 10 silver helms and rampaging across half the world only have my forces die because of regressive production.

i just dont think its a mechanic that will work. firstly it will wack game baance right out, and seconly it wont be fun (for me any way )

we should keep elves just a little ahead of the times at the start and then they fall back slightly as you progress (ie other civs units just become steadily stronger as your unit strength level off. something like in the pic i did below. perhaps have humans also plateau out after a bit, but so that most of their later units are still tougher than the elven units.

 

[Masada]

I see it as fun... but thats me... i still think elves should platue right at the start...

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

but then elves will be unstoppable right at the start, they will send out their strength 10 silver helms and wipe everyone from the face of the map in the first 50 turns at least. they dont even need to build moret than 1 or 2 to be able to do that. it will be like the elves are playing the game backwards, starting in the future and 'forgetting tchs and units becoming weaker, whilst the rest are playing forwards.

i want all civs to prgress, but some faster than others at different times.

perhaps we will need some other people's oppions on the matter. (ploe, Solwen?)

 

[Masada]

btw this an idea for a scenario... (i tend to think primarily in scenarios... because random maps dont hold the same feel for me )

I dont think that would be the case... Silver Helms would be the equivalent of mini-wonders to build at the start... 90 shields would be a fair number to talk about...

Think about it this way... for every Silver Helm built... a young race can build 10 warriors... X amount of Spearman... while defending in a city... add in a hill and a river and your silver helm will kill 2 before the counter attack kills it...

Now on the scale of buidling these things... 90 shields is hard to get at the start of the game... combine that with a slow population growth... and you will probably crank one out in the first 20-40 turns depending on the terrain... but consider this a city growth on a 2 food tile will take 20 turns? and probably wont get any better... so at the start you might have a flying army of 3-4 units... but not many more... because lets not forget those things would have a high maintance cost at the start... 3-4 would be the most you could have for the first age or two... they are far from efficent super weapons...

I honestly think a computer would have trouble knocking out players all that quickly... and even a player might be hardpressed because elven cities would have a minimun garrison as would dwarves...

You can have a single str 10 unit in the city... but given half a chance a comp will suicide a stack of 10 warriors into it and probably kill it... combine that with a few cats and you knock out pretty much anything... elves, dwarves and lizardmen would be suited towards small surgical strikes and not a tide of doom and destruction...

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

*smiles and nods*

(i still think it isnt a great idea, but you could do it for a scenario, i would rather have it so it can be random (but thats just me))

 

[Masada]

Simply speaking... the Elven, Dwarven and Lizardmen (now reffered to as "Elven" armies because i cant be bothered to type out all three civs) armies will surge past everyon in strength at least in the start... but never in numbers...

This is effectively limited by the shield cost of the units... lets call it 90 shields.. that seems fair enough (at least for this example) but lets run through a hypothetical game for a few turns

Turn 1. Starting defence unit YAY! Str 10 (seems to be a well rounded number) and a settler, settles in a fairly mediocre place... not to bad and not to good
Turn 2. This is where PL has a problem. I can choose to build a 90 shield super unit of death... but given that i can only get 2 shields a turn (with no pop growth) i can build one in.... 45 turns (practically a wonder) or i can choose to build a conservative way and grab some growth in the long run hope of getting some super units of death.
Turn 20. Population 2 puts a civilian in the city to getting 2 sheilds a turn (low growth) sets to build super unit of death... still 45 turns... with only mediocre terrian to exploit... (all the while im teching like mad... grabbing low level techs)
Turn 40. Still building super unit of death... with a massive technology backlog and no way to improve my tiles... so im wasting 3 shields a turn from unworked squares... and quite a bit of food... : So i have slow population growth.. a super unit on the way
Turn 45. Super unit of death builds... YAY! but im in trouble... i have no worked tiles and no ability to expand... by this time im in trouble im way ahead of everyone tech wise... but i cant use it...

You get the picture... you cannot spam Silver Helms if you have a size 1 city with only minimal resources and if you have a slower pop growth.. (and its even worse if you have to pay a population point for each unit...)

However this would be to some extent remidied by having the ability to build relatively cheap wonders... that allow you to have Dragons Knights of Caledor.. at the cost of high maintance... so your capable of destorying players... but move your expensive units into your enemies territory... and if they kill a unit you might have trouble fending off the next attack because your military buildup has cost your population and you've "borrowed" some defenders for offensive duties... and the extra costs from units being in enemy territory is going to cripple you... pulling you into negative figures on your treasury... disbanding anyone?

This means that your going to be limited by the mechanics... and this will apply to all the old races.. its in line with the canon... they dont attack all that often and its because of inbuilt problems that they dont bother fighting the young races if they can possibily avoid it...

BTW i do belive that this is much better suited for a scenario... but even so watered down it keeps with the canon and makes alot more sense... instead of having non-canonical units in the mod.... maybe we should have Silver Helms 1 which upgrade to Silver Helms 2 str 6-8-10? etc but still at the final level weaker than the better special units of the young races... would give you that nice linear line as well

 

[DeaExMachina]

I only skimmed this but the Oriental Tradition caught my eye. It should increase growth rate as oriental nations have had high family values that resulted in large and controlled population growth, just look at India and China.

Additionally I think bonus free units based on empire size works better constructively with other civics. A -20% maint isn't important when your running Horde and have a huge army and only a few units getting that bonus, it really isn't helping you and taking yourself off Horde may very well just drop you way too low in income that the -20% isn't doing an effective job comparatively.