Leader Traits Replaced with CivBonuses

[Masada]

@DeaExMachina

Im not sure but i think the intention would to be to change those civics one we have figured out the exact structure of the civilization traits

To stop double ups and easily exploitable situations and i do agree with the increased population growth

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

No i think we should do the generic traits first and individual ones later. the empire thread is only there to show basically what i want to be able to do, those characteristics are still up in the air

@DeaExMachina: i agree with both your points, updated second post with that and Solwens changes

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

@ Ploe:
i found a bunch of python snippets by Zebra that will enable a lot of what i would like Civ bonuses to do. (leadeer specific units and buildings ets.)
i just though id post the LINK here so i dont forget about it (for later reference, when we start implementing this thing )

there are also a bunch of other good things in there that you might fnd useful

 

[rocklikeafool]

Here's my critique of all the ideas in the first post. I picked out parts that particularly stuck out to me cuz I, obviously, have questions or comments bout em. I hope no one else said this stuff before, but I'm too lazy to read 3 pages of posts. Sorry.

The Empire:

-The old capital gets a +2 malus to happiness. (This malus ends when a new capital is again chosen.)

Do you have build a new capital then? Or does it automatically spawn in one the 6 cities? How is it determined where the new capital is placed?

Lizzies:

Skinks and kroxigors have amphibious assaults and can move on coastal tiles.

Does this work like the water walking spell/promotion in FfH?

WEs:

It would be good if we could change the time scale to seasons. i.e. turn 1 is Spring Year 1, Turn 2 is Summer year 1, Turn 3 is Autumn year 1, turn 4 is Winter year 1, turn 5 in Spring year 2, etc.
If we did this we could give woodelf units befits and penalties according to the seasons.
+Woodelf Units built in spring or summer get Combat 1 promotion.
+Woodelf units have increase chance of success when fighting in spring or summer.
+Woodelf Cities produce units faster in spring and summer.
-Woodelf Cities experience unhappiness in winter and autumn.
-Unit production decreased in winter and autumn.
-Woodelf units have decreased chance of success when fighting in winter or autumn.

I agree with this concept. It would better the flavor of the mod. It would also make it so the techs are researched in real time. (Consider the light bulb or any other invention in our world. It takes at most like 10 years to come up with and finish an invention. I see the techs as essentially making an invention or sometimes several inventions. i.e. Machinery allows Crossbowman, Watermills, and Wood mills.)
For the sake of practical application, we should have the year thing in the upper right corner say, “Spring, Year 1” or whatever the season and year are.
For the unhappiness and decreased chance of success for WE units in Winter and Autumn, how much are we talking? 30%? 10%?

+the woodelf capital should always start with the Oak of Ages Unique Feature in its boarders. If Ariel or Orion die at any point in the game they will be reborn at the Oak of ages as with the immortality promotion but with 50% less EXP.

So, what happens if you change capitals? Does the Oak of Ages move or stay at your old capital?

-'Treetop Cottage' improvement, acts the same as normal cottage but buildable in forests.

I assume that this means this improvement doesn’t destroy forests, same as Elven improvements in FfH.

-Desert, tundra, ice, mountain provide serious unhappiness.

How much unhappiness are we talking?

-Workers cannot build mines.

So, how would the Wes get resources like copper and iron? I know they don’t have any in the Forest of Athel Loren, but it would be useful for even the WEs to have those.

-A Pageant of Shrikes (unit can cast "shrikes' on target unit (selected from stack) which deals 3 damage.)

Would this spell/promotion allow the killing of enemy units then?

Khemri:

+ Workers can build "Necropolis" land improvement (give bonus happiness). A Necropolis being pillaged gives a LOT of $ but is not destroyed.

Does this replace the cottage to town progression then?

+ When Khemri is blasted by the great Nagash spell, all the "necropilized" dead units come back to life in their undead form. (Catapult become skull catapult, dead wizards become tomb scorpions, etc...). All these units are "immortal".
+ Dead priest-king become tomb-kings and are immortal too.

By immortal, do you mean they cannot be killed or you kill them once and they resurrect in a Khemri necropolis?

-When Khemri is blasted by the great Nagash spell all his cities are reduced to 1/3 of their original population, his lands become nefarious, all his land improvements (except roads and necropolis) are destroyed, all his units die, and he lost all his diplomatic contacts.

Why lose all diplomatic contact?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Do you have build a new capital then? Or does it automatically spawn in one the 6 cities? How is it determined where the new capital is placed?

iirc, from almost a year ago (yikes, what thread necromancy ) the capital would automatically be moved, such as through events. so you wouldnt need to build a palace manually. the new capital should probably be the next biggest city.

Does this work like the water walking spell/promotion in FfH?

yeah, but without the need to cast the spell, they would start with water walking (or a suitable named promo with the same effect)

For the unhappiness and decreased chance of success for WE units in Winter and Autumn, how much are we talking? 30%? 10%?

i had actually completely forgotten about this idea. i still think it has some merits, but im not sure what ploep wants to do with the time scale. with regards the the unhappyness, id say 0.5 for every desert, tundra, ice being worked. and as for unhappyness, probably just 1 from autumn and 2 from winter. id expect about 10-15% strength loss in winter/autumn and 10-15% strength gain in summer/spring.

in the time that i posted that idea and now, i now think it will be too difficult to implement, and would be too confusing for people

So, what happens if you change capitals? Does the Oak of Ages move or stay at your old capital?

Nah, the Oak would stay where it is.

I assume that this means this improvement doesn’t destroy forests, same as Elven improvements in FfH.

yep

So, how would the Wes get resources like copper and iron? I know they don’t have any in the Forest of Athel Loren, but it would be useful for even the WEs to have those.

WE wouldnt use metals, they would have to trade for them, or invade somewhere that has already got a copper linked up to a mine. could have a new WE resource called Hardwood, which could be a requirement for later unit weapons.

Would this spell/promotion allow the killing of enemy units then?

unfortunately i couldnt get that to work, so i doubt we will see this spell any time soon

Does this replace the cottage to town progression then?

yep

By immortal, do you mean they cannot be killed or you kill them once and they resurrect in a Khemri necropolis?

either that or in the capital, yes.

Why lose all diplomatic contact?

well i expect being dead for a couple of hundred years would cause your old friends to forget about you, or die themselves dont you think? theres quite a time delay between their death and their ressurection as undead.

 

[Celeborn]

*Rubs his hands together*

Roight then!

Ahem...


The Great Plan

*Each city spawn a Slaan mage-priest as it's fondation
+They are very powerful spell caster who can remove the FOW of any place of the map for 1 turn each turn and their spells have greater range.
-When a slaan dies his whole civ is considering doing a revolution and all the LM units within 5 square radius can do nothing exept trenching. All this for 1 turn.
- when a slaan is killed, a new mage slaan less powerful than the one before is spawned x turn later (4th times then their stats don't go lower)
-A slaan can not leave a city without joining a "temple guard" unit and you can not train more temple guards unit than your number of slaan.

Can't find much fault with this section, though if it is possible I suggest that the power of the Slann spawned depends on the number of Lizardmen cities, so that say... The first lizardman city has a Slann of the First Generation, the next three spawn with a Slann of the Second Generation the 6 get Third. The next 10 get Fourth. Every after (Maybe up to a max of 15 or 20) gets Fifth. And if a Slann dies, that's it. You don't get a re-roll, though on the death of your First Slann you might get the chance to turn him into a Relic Mage-Priest which would be less powerfull than his original form, but slightly more powerfull than a Second Gen Slann. If he dies again, though luck. Temple Gaurd seems like a good idea, though I would suggest making it so that they are -not- ideal for actual attacking (The Slann does the damage with ze magicz) and spawn a few turns after city founding.

*Jungle and environment
+Jungles act as forest with +1 hammer and food, swamps act as oases.
+jungle give health bonus as forest and swamps as oases
+LM units have forester III in jungles and swamps and skinks and kroxigors have amphibious assaults and can move on coastal tiles.
+LM can build "Lore temples" land improvments that gives bonus to research.1 lore temple per 4 population point.
-Lm get malus on forests, plains and grassland not in their borders and get huge malus on tundra and snow tiles
-The enemy unit pillaging "Lore temples" gain LOT of $ and gain a "Old one tablet" item that gives him a small bonus research each turn and a malus research to the LM. The pillaged lore temple is not destroyed and the LM player can't raze it. If the LM manage to kill the enemy unit and bring back the "tablet" to the pillaged lore temple, then all goes as it was before the plunder.
-LM can only build improvment to exploit ressources (and road of course) and lore temples

Good ideas. Though I expect that Lizard's would still be able to build farms and plantations on resources within the fat cross and get the bonus for it, yes? After all, all those skinks and saurus still need food.

*Cities
+4 first LM cities have a gold ressource near them at their foundation
+Each pop points give the LM player 5 golds
+Corporations can not settle in LM cities
+Other religions don't spread in LM cities
+No unhappyness
-No trade routes
-No ressource trade agreement
-malus 25% to building and unit production.
-Can not change his civics

First off. I feel that the extra 5 gold per population might be a bit... Overpowered, especially when combined with the no unit upkeep listed below. No foreign religions in Lizard cities is something I can support and no corporations I can see the logic behind, though I feel you might be able to stretch it a bit to allow for them. No trade-routes... Can't get behind that. The Lizardmen -do- trade with others, Marco Columbo brought back a wealth of treasure that was -given- to him by the Lizardmen because they considered the pearls and precious stones to be mere baubles. And when they are nor razing the various Norse and pirate settlements along the Lustrian coast the Temple cities do indulge in a little light trade.

No unhappiness is also I no go I feel, as, while they -do- follow the Great Plan, the Lizardmen (and in particular the bulk of their population, the Skinks) are not mindlessly obedient. The Skinks were none to happy when the Slann refused to do anything about the Skaven plague killing them off, and even went so far as to go "F the Slann, we're going to follow Tehenhauin!"

Also a decrease in building production doesn't make sense, when the Lizardmen have access to worker that can pull one tone block of stone around in teams of maybe five at the most. Kroxigors were actually bred for building big temples and building them fast. It just so happened they could be used to bash skulls in as well/

*Only skinks unit can be produced (and terradons riders/salamanders)
+No unit upkeep at all
+ units can "create" slaves to be sacrified when defeating another unit.
-Other units (including chameleon skinks) spawn each x turn when their according building is created.

No upkeep, no. Reduced upkeep, maybe. And personally I feel that apart from workers and settlers Lizards should not be able to build any units at -all-. Instead each city would start with a Skink spawning pool which would, you guessed it, spawn Skinks every so often. As an added dynamic to the spawning mechanic, you might perhaps have various promotions apply to freshly spawned units depending to which Old One/s a particular city is dedicated to. For instance a city dedicated to Tlazcotl would occasionally spawn units with the Courage promotion.

 

[Celeborn]

As an after thought. Temples to the Old Ones could perhaps have levels akin to Temples and Cathedrals in vanilla Civ. So every n Lesser Temples of (Insert Old One name here) allows you to build a Great Temple of (Insert Old One name here). The Greater Temple would have better bonuses than the Lesser Temple as well as increasing the chances(or perhaps granting a stronger version) of a Blessing being bestowed upon a Spawning.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

First off. I feel that the extra 5 gold per population might be a bit... Overpowered, especially when combined with the no unit upkeep listed below. No foreign religions in Lizard cities is something I can support and no corporations I can see the logic behind, though I feel you might be able to stretch it a bit to allow for them. No trade-routes... Can't get behind that. The Lizardmen -do- trade with others, Marco Columbo brought back a wealth of treasure that was -given- to him by the Lizardmen because they considered the pearls and precious stones to be mere baubles. And when they are nor razing the various Norse and pirate settlements along the Lustrian coast the Temple cities do indulge in a little light trade.

No unhappiness is also I no go I feel, as, while they -do- follow the Great Plan, the Lizardmen (and in particular the bulk of their population, the Skinks) are not mindlessly obedient. The Skinks were none to happy when the Slann refused to do anything about the Skaven plague killing them off, and even went so far as to go "F the Slann, we're going to follow Tehenhauin!"

Also a decrease in building production doesn't make sense, when the Lizardmen have access to worker that can pull one tone block of stone around in teams of maybe five at the most. Kroxigors were actually bred for building big temples and building them fast. It just so happened they could be used to bash skulls in as well/

you raise some good points there, especially on the gold issues. the trade routes does make sense, but i think id still like to severely restrict them, so that they dont act as a major source of income. i also agree with you on the no unhappyness and building production points.

No upkeep, no. Reduced upkeep, maybe. And personally I feel that apart from workers and settlers Lizards should not be able to build any units at -all-. Instead each city would start with a Skink spawning pool which would, you guessed it, spawn Skinks every so often. As an added dynamic to the spawning mechanic, you might perhaps have various promotions apply to freshly spawned units depending to which Old One/s a particular city is dedicated to. For instance a city dedicated to Tlazcotl would occasionally spawn units with the Courage promotion.

again, good points. im actually thinking that lizardmen cannot build settleres either, we could give Slann a 'raise city' spell to rebuild cities, and then have lustria dotted with ruins, that must be rebuilt by the slann magics. or, even have the slann start with all their cities built. the problem here is would the AI handle it?

i like the idea of lizzies getting multiple kinds of temples with different effects. very flavourful.

 

[Celeborn]

The idea of the Slann raising cities is a good one as well, but then the issue would be if the AI could handle it, like you stated. Though I have to admit that I would go with allowing settlers over that idea though, even if the AI could be taught how to handle it. Why? Because I feel that it would start to take -too- much control away from the player. The spawning concept is interesting and with the concept of temples (and perhaps upgraded spawning pools, which would allow increased spawning rate for a city) there is still and element of player -control-. Sure you can't decree -what- unit you get -when-, but careful planning should still allow you to get the balance of forces and skills you want.

Whereas the raise city idea, while cool and flavourful, essentially tells the player "You can build your city here. Don't like? Well though luck to you!".

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

the main reason for the slan city raising ability over settlers is because the lizardmen have never built a new city. they had all their cities since the old ones, and most of those are ruins now.

perhaps make lizzie specific settlers that can only build on ruins and give slann a move city spell, so the play can migrate the city to where they want. maybe make that spell destroy all buildings to prevent players taking advantage of that.

 

[Celeborn]

Hmmm... Valid points... But... I now have another idea...

Have the Lizards start with all/most of their cities in Lustrai/Southlands built... But then implement a feature that makes several of the cities fall into ruin over a period of time. Of course the Lizardmen player should have options to slow or stop to "ruining" process to perhaps save key cities...

And then, later he may choose to resettle the ruined cities... Or just strike north and kill off those damned Dark Elves <_<.

 

[Masada]

I think perhaps we can control the decay and collapse of the Lizardmen reasonably simply and without having them just collapse for reason X (i always hate things like that happening).

You've basically answered the question yourself, Dark Elves, then add another race of imfamy Skaven and then multiple that by what other nasty things we can throw at them.

Slann mage priests can probably just "make" a city back into inhabbitance... Lizardmen are spawned from pools restart them and the city is back

Its the trouble of getting slann to restart them

Also no upkeep is reasonable as is no trade... they considered the pearls baubles etc worthless so it wasnt trade per-say it was a gift and i doubt there trade counts for much at all in gross terms or in value terms as a % of lizardman growth (or decline )

Good ideas keep them coming

 

[rocklikeafool]

Or just strike north and kill off those damned Dark Elves <_<.

I resent that comment.

Wat'd the DEs ever do to you, man?

 

[Celeborn]

You mean apart from steal our stuff and attack our cities?


And... The rise of the Skaven could see a plague sweep across Lizard cities causing several of them to fall into ruin... Ya know, seeing as that's kinda what happened.

 

[Masada]

Fair enough we have therefore removed the WTFish factor of why did my cities die... it can now be tied to canon and common sense... plauge=dead cities... not dues ex machina problem = dead cities *huh*

So that solves that problem

 

[rocklikeafool]

LOL, ok, we have been real jerks to you HEs. Would it help if we apologize? We're sorry. *Shakes Celeborn's hand and then stabs him in the back as Celeborn begins to walk off*

Ok, nough spammin.

Also no upkeep is reasonable as is no trade...they considered the pearls, baubles, etc. worthless. So it wasn't trade per-say it was a gift and i doubt there trade counts for much at all in gross terms or in value terms as a % of lizardman growth (or decline).

I think the Lizzies should have very minimal trade and very minimal upkeep. But there still should be some. For example, let's say the DE or the Empire have 3 cities and so do the Lizzies. (These numbers aren't viable with only 3 cities, but jus go with it for the sake of my point.) Let's assume the upkeep for the DE or the Empire is 6 gold. Then the Lizzies would have an upkeep of 1 gold. Then assume DE or Empire trade revenue is 6 gold; the Lizzies would have 1 gold. That's how I think it should work, by use of a 6-1 ratio.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Plague, Skaven, Chaos Hords, Darkelf raid, Amazonian uprisings... the possibile causes of city degredation are vast. the event system could be put to good (bad?) use here by causing events to occur when something goes wrong (ie, if skaven meet lizardmen, a massive plague erupts and kills off lots of their population. if lizzies meet Darkelves, continuos raids can affront their cities through events. regualr chaos incursions should batter on the Lizards doorstep.

so basically, the lizardmens main goal is to stay alive, keep their citys flourishing and if they are destroyed, rebuild them.

I resent that comment.

Wat'd the DEs ever do to you, man?

LOL, ok, we have been real jerks to you HEs. Would it help if we apologize? We're sorry. *Shakes Celeborn's hand and then stabs him in the back as Celeborn begins to walk off*

:spam::spam::spam: NO MORE SPAM< PLEASE IVE HAD ENOUGH! :spam::spam::spam:

 

[rocklikeafool]

So, how would that transfer into a specific victory for the Lizzies?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

hmmm lets see... DONT DIE.

 

[Celeborn]

LOL, ok, we have been real jerks to you HEs. Would it help if we apologize? We're sorry. *Shakes Celeborn's hand and then stabs him in the back as Celeborn begins to walk off*

Do not let the name fool you... I'm no High Elf...



Victory for the Lizardmen would essentially be a Time Victory. Stay alive as long as possible. Though you could perhaps have a Great Plan related victory for them. Say taking control of certain areas of the world, re-establishing the ley-lines, much like what was done with Albion. Kill Choas and bring about the perfect world of the Old Ones...

Of course that would leave -us- with a bit of creative license as to what it was the Old Ones planned <_<