Leaderscreens - Observations

Oh and Richard Hasen who was responsible for the outfits of the Maya in that movie is actually a pretty cool archaeologist. Since someone mentioned Apocalypto I will take the opportunity to mention people should look at his recent find "El Mirador"

The City is one of the most important discoveries in a century. It contains the largest pyramid in the World, a stone transcribed copy of the Popol Vuh (Basically the Bible of the Maya), and has a city radius larger than that of Los Angeles. It is being considered possibly one of the most populated cities/if not the most populated cities of its time (1,000 B.C. to 200 A.D.).
 
Nice find!
And I believe Selassie himself was based on this photo:

19351936_haile_selassie.jpg




EDIT: Which doesn't seem to work....

19351936_haile_selassie.jpg
 
Pacal is a weebit too stylized if you ask me. If you look at his depictions in Palenque he doesn't look much like that. As OP points out, he looks straight out of Apocalypto and I think they were just being lazy. Also, Palenque looks bizzarely barren too.
 
Pacal is a weebit too stylized if you ask me. If you look at his depictions in Palenque he doesn't look much like that. As OP points out, he looks straight out of Apocalypto and I think they were just being lazy. Also, Palenque looks bizzarely barren too.

Yep I concur. People seem to like his style... so I am not knocking it (since after all developers would rather have the majority think it looks "cool". To me it is sort of meh and lazy as well and particularly the background.)

Hansen a cool archaeologist who was used for the costumes... made the Maya look... too Aztec-y rather than a Maya look.
 
Have you met Hansen?

I understand your point about the cool factor but I can't quite get over it. This is a game that has had a fair amount of energy invested into it in terms of historical accuracy. I think if another civilization, say America, had a leader that was dressed in a manner that was inconsistent with their culture or time period just for the sake of "looking cool" there would be a lot backlash from the community at large. The exotification and treatment of indigenious peoples as homogenous has been a big aspect of racism for a very long time and I think it sends the wrong message to alter the Maya just to please the tastes of a predominately Western audience.
 
Have you met Hansen?

I understand your point about the cool factor but I can't quite get over it. This is a game that has had a fair amount of energy invested into it in terms of historical accuracy. I think if another civilization, say America, had a leader that was dressed in a manner that was inconsistent with their culture or time period just for the sake of "looking cool" there would be a lot backlash from the community at large. The exotification and treatment of indigenious peoples as homogenous has been a big aspect of racism for a very long time and I think it sends the wrong message to alter the Maya just to please the tastes of a predominately Western audience.

No I have not met Hansen, its just its an opportunity to mention/reference important archaeology being done now. If people are interested its a chance for me to spread a bit of the word ;). I don't care for the movie (because of the many things wrong with it), but if people do at least it lets me get the shout out, out there (To the excavation of El Mirador).

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Of course there would be a lot of backlash if it was of a culture with more people.

I myself am half Kaqchikel, but I just take a lot of things in stride. (And yes in real life my friends like to joke about a lot of these misconceptions :lol: so I guess I am used to a certain tolerance level)

There are so many simply wrong jokes and perceptions out there, there is really no point to be mad about most of it. You just hope it isn't too extreme. I wish they had detailed Palenque more and that Pacal didn't look like he does, but even that I don't mind to an extent.

I just don't want our Civ to be represented too gimmicky overall. Maybe its because I am more worried what they will do with the UA that I don't really care much about how Pacal looks. I am sure some other leaderheads out here are probably over the top as well (i.e. Askia), but it isn't a too major problem I think.
 
Historical Accuracy? Where? xD

I think Pacal looks awesome, might not be accurate, but I don't think anybody even uses Civ to educate themselves. Besides, the way he looked in Civ 4 was horrendous, look like a little boy with a bad bad hairstyle.
 
As with Civ IV, William's background is based on the typical painting style by Vermeer, whose usage of light always gives a chamber a very homey feel. Windows on the left, as usual!
 
I think that ancient rocket painting should be shown in pacal's background, or perhaps his science victory should depict something like that.
Will be a nice addition to the scene :D
 
As OP points out, he looks straight out of Apocalypto and I think they were just being lazy.

That's quite unfair toward Firaxis. It has nothing to do with laziness. It has to do with what sells. Personally, I hate the movie, but it was quite popular, so it was cleverness on Firaxis' part to design Pacal in this way.
 
I don't think this is laziness, as pointed out there are no "accurate" portraits of pre-columbian american kings, it'd make sense of them to homage and get inspired by one of the currently most famous pieces of art featuring Mayans.
He isn't technically a straight ripoff from the film. He doesn't look as awesome as "the King", but he is certainly the coolest american leader in the game.
 
I think that ancient rocket painting should be shown in pacal's background, or perhaps his science victory should depict something like that.
Will be a nice addition to the scene :D

Please tell me you are joking. Please... Hey I can take a joke, but if you are being serious here I am about to go crazy :sad:. Do I have to direct you to the Ancient Alien Memes, no ridicilous ancient alien nonsense here please.

And if you are joking, my apologies ahead of time.
 
I don't think this is laziness, as pointed out there are no "accurate" portraits of pre-columbian american kings, it'd make sense of them to homage and get inspired by one of the currently most famous pieces of art featuring Mayans.
He isn't technically a straight ripoff from the film. He doesn't look as awesome as "the King", but he is certainly the coolest american leader in the game.

I beg to differ, while Mayan art tends to depict Mayan kings very stilized rather than realistic way, Palenque art gravitated more to realistic representations.

Here's King Pacal the great:

Spoiler :
j2_2073.jpg


I dont mind the Apocalypto inspiration, but it would have been nice to also use the historical reference and apply it.

However I do agree he looks pretty cool, its better than Moctezuma dressed like a prehsipanic dance renactor with anger managment issues, thats for sure.
 
Please tell me you are joking. Please... Hey I can take a joke, but if you are being serious here I am about to go crazy :sad:. Do I have to direct you to the Ancient Alien Memes, no ridicilous ancient alien nonsense here please.

And if you are joking, my apologies ahead of time.

Because archeological efforts have proved how everything ever occured in Mayan history, right. No room for maybe's and what if's in that field of study :rolleyes:

I personally don't see a difference in people believing the Mayans were taught advanced technologies by an alien race, and people believing an all knowing god resides in some dimension and judges our actions in preparation for an afterlife. Neither can be proved definitively, and should not be called nonsense by either side.

When I learn to mod, some ufo's blasting around in Pacal's backround might be my first edit. Maybe I'll throw Bigfoot behind Haiwatha as well.
 
I don't care for the movie (because of the many things wrong with it), but if people do at least it lets me get the shout out, out there (To the excavation of El Mirador).

I saw a documentary on that a while ago, pretty interesting stuff though I didn't connect the name until now.

I myself am half Kaqchikel

Nahua, but I don't know much about that part of my family and couldn't get more specific than that. I'm not losing any sleep over the Pacal issue but I do think these things effect viewers subconsciously in ways they're not always aware of.

Now for snideness!

It has nothing to do with laziness. It has to do with what sells. Personally, I hate the movie, but it was quite popular, so it was cleverness on Firaxis' part to design Pacal in this way.

I don't think Pacal as a leader is so high up on the food chain that people aren't going to buy Gods and Kings simply because his representation doesn't look cool enough. I also don't think its particularly clever to borrow from the only major movie to depict the "Maya" (As Gucumatz points, there is so much wrong with that movie its hard to associate it when the Maya peoples). I think its pretty obvious move which is why so many people here were able to identify it right off the bat.

Also, they're making a leaderscreen for a game; it's not reasonable to expect that they would spend more time and effort on research than a $40 million motion picture.

As Ehecatzin already demonstrated how readily available realistic sculptures of Pacal are, I'd just like to point out that it doesn't cost 300,000 dollars to pick up a book on Mayan art, 1,000,000 dollars to hire someone to read it. Pointing to the movie's budget seems a little dishonest to me when obviously research was a very, very small part of the film's overall expenses.

However I do agree he looks pretty cool, its better than Moctezuma dressed like a prehsipanic dance renactor with anger managment issues, thats for sure.

I always figured that (the anger thing) was an in-joke. The Aztecs always declare war on everyone, Catherine is horny as hell (although that does have some historical basis) it doesn't surprise me Firaxis would put that in. As for his garb, I don't think I've seen any Danza Azteca that tattooed up but atleast his headdress was based on something very real and very significant to the modern day Mexica:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17878130

personally don't see a difference in people believing the Mayans were taught advanced technologies by an alien race, and people believing an all knowing god resides in some dimension and judges our actions in preparation for an afterlife. Neither can be proved definitively, and should not be called nonsense by either side

One is the belief people who are ignorant of Mayan culture decided to apply to Mayan history simply because they know nothing of how the classical Maya lived, thought, and built. The other is a personal belief which is entirely subjective. The issue is not "definitive proof", the issue is wild theories based on a person's unwillingness to learn. It would be as if I told you Mt. Rushmore was built by aliens to tell Americans which kings to worship - that would be a claim that ignores American history, American political systems, American technological capabilities.
 
I always figured that (the anger thing) was an in-joke. The Aztecs always declare war on everyone, Catherine is horny as hell (although that does have some historical basis) it doesn't surprise me Firaxis would put that in. As for his garb, I don't think I've seen any Danza Azteca that tattooed up but atleast his headdress was based on something very real and very significant to the modern day Mexica:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17878130

I know, Monty is supposed to be a crazy angry power mongerer in Civ games, I just would love to see Monty as an angry power mongerer...that actually looks like an Aztec emperor. And again, there's a plethora of references avalaiable, "Moctezuma's headress" in Austria most likely wasnt even wore by the emperor (there's even debate on weater its even a headress), there's not a single codex showing an emperor wearing anything like that, they used turquoise crowns and dressed in long cotton mantles.

Spoiler :
490_03_2.jpg

cortes-malinche-moctezuma.jpg



I get the impression that the designers go for coolness first and research second, and Monty doesnt look anything like an Aztec emperor in any civ game. It would be like dressing Augustus as a gladiator because it would be cooler.
 
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