League of Legends

[Crezth]

I really think this thread should stay focus in League of Legends, all mentioning of DOTA or other games should be removed.

Fascist! Just like Riot, I see.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Fascist! Just like Riot, I see.

Okay, now you're just making fun.

DotA vs. LoL debate, while a fascinating argument that I'm sure has many great viewpoints on both sides, is better suited to its own thread. If it keeps up, I will request a mod split the DotA vs. LoL posts into their own thread.

On the subject of just LoL, how much longer do you think the Black Cleaver's going to last as a dominant item? My bet is that it's nerfed to hell by March.

 

[Darkwind]

Okay, now you're just making fun.

DotA vs. LoL debate, while a fascinating argument that I'm sure has many great viewpoints on both sides, is better suited to its own thread. If it keeps up, I will request a mod split the DotA vs. LoL posts into their own thread.

On the subject of just LoL, how much longer do you think the Black Cleaver's going to last as a dominant item? My bet is that it's nerfed to hell by March.

It's already nerfed and no one stack them anymore... Everyone and their grandmother are buying warmog now.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's already nerfed and no one stack them anymore... Everyone and their grandmother are buying warmog now.

The warmog fascination seems to stem from the issue that MR items are lackluster on a lot of non AP champions. If you want to survive magic burst, and your character can effectively use it, you want a hexdrinker. If you can't really use a hexdrinker on a champ - then I think warmog is probably the 2nd best defense against magic.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

It's already nerfed and no one stack them anymore... Everyone and their grandmother are buying warmog now.

Let's be honest - just because you can't stack it doesn't mean Black Cleaver isn't still a hell of an item to get. There's a reason AD mid is as common as it is.

The warmog fascination seems to stem from the issue that MR items are lackluster on a lot of non AP champions. If you want to survive magic burst, and your character can effectively use it, you want a hexdrinker. If you can't really use a hexdrinker on a champ - then I think warmog is probably the 2nd best defense against magic.

As for MR when you're not AP, I've always found Spirit Visage pretty useful. That's just me, though. 50 MR and some cooldown reduction works great on a support, if you can afford it. The 20% boost to lifesteal and spellvamp isn't a bad deal either.

 

[Farm Boy]

As for MR when you're not AP, I've always found Spirit Visage pretty useful. That's just me, though. 50 MR and some cooldown reduction works great on a support, if you can afford it. The 20% boost to lifesteal and spellvamp isn't a bad deal either.

Spirit visage is helpful if you get it early enough as sustain is more valuable early. If you are itemizing as an AD carry, your primary enemy is burst DPS and CC. If you can live through the burst and keep autoattacking then your defensive items have succeeded. The boost to lifesteal and spellvamp isn't really ideal here, you need to live through damage that comes fast, not damage that comes through slow, hence the Warmogs HP buffer. If you are building an AD bruiser that tends to ability scale on AD, then the hexdrinker is often close to ideal(or at least usually ideal enough to make it into your top 6 choices) - it adds AD scaling to your abilities and gives the shield. It's a two for one.

If you need an item that makes you notdie as fast, and you aren't really sure what to build - well, HP it is. Armor/MR/shields/lifesteal/regen may be ideal in some situations, but you can never go totally wrong with stacking the good ol' generic HP.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Spirit visage is helpful if you get it early enough as sustain is more valuable early. If you are itemizing as an AD carry, your primary enemy is burst DPS and CC. If you can live through the burst and keep autoattacking then your defensive items have succeeded. The boost to lifesteal and spellvamp isn't really ideal here, you need to live through damage that comes fast, not damage that comes through slow, hence the Warmogs HP buffer. If you are building an AD bruiser that tends to ability scale on AD, then the hexdrinker is often close to ideal(or at least usually ideal enough to make it into your top 6 choices) - it adds AD scaling to your abilities and gives the shield. It's a two for one.

If you need an item that makes you notdie as fast, and you aren't really sure what to build - well, HP it is. Armor/MR/shields/lifesteal/regen may be ideal in some situations, but you can never go totally wrong with stacking the good ol' generic HP.

Ah, see, I don't really play ADCs much, and when I do, I just follow the standard build. You know the one.

Boots+Pots --> BF Sword --> Zerks + Vamp --> Infinity Edge --> Zeal --> PD --> BT --> LW --> BC

Mainly because ADC is really not my best role. Honestly, I haven't really played an AD Bruiser much since season 2 either... My usual top lane choice is Singed, and I still use APs for mid. I know, old-fashioned. I will consider a Warmogs next time I take an AD top, though.

Question, though, what if you're going pure-tank, and you've already got a Warmogs? Spirit Visage will definitely be useful there, you must admit. MR, health, CDR so you can use your abilities more. Helpful.

 

[Farm Boy]

Ah, see, I don't really play ADCs much, and when I do, I just follow the standard build. You know the one.

Boots+Pots --> BF Sword --> Zerks + Vamp --> Infinity Edge --> Zeal --> PD --> BT --> LW --> BC

Mainly because ADC is really not my best role. Honestly, I haven't really played an AD Bruiser much since season 2 either... My usual top lane choice is Singed, and I still use APs for mid. I know, old-fashioned. I will consider a Warmogs next time I take an AD top, though.

Question, though, what if you're going pure-tank, and you've already got a Warmogs? Spirit Visage will definitely be useful there, you must admit. MR, health, CDR so you can use your abilities more. Helpful.

Sure, it's not bad - particularly if you are taking lane harass from magic damage. I still wouldn't buy it late though. How many cooldown cycles are you really going to run through in late game teamfights? Probably not a lot - so the CDR doesn't help as much. How much health is the regen going to heal in a teamfight? Again, not much. The MR is the valuable stat at that point and I just don't think it's worth it late. Maybe on Mundo early it's ideal. After you've gone Warmogs - very spendy and probably not your first item, a pure tank is really going to need something that disrupts and makes you an active aggravation that needs dealt with rather than ignored for higher priority targets. A frozen hammer being one such item as it makes you "sticky." Not really applicable for Singed I must admit, but maybe - just maybe, the crystalline scepter. I still get the feeling there are better choices than that tho.

 

[Archbob]

The warmog fascination seems to stem from the issue that MR items are lackluster on a lot of non AP champions. If you want to survive magic burst, and your character can effectively use it, you want a hexdrinker. If you can't really use a hexdrinker on a champ - then I think warmog is probably the 2nd best defense against magic.

I see warmogs as a 2nd or 3rd defensive item. I think the best Defensive Item is still Guardian Angel. Its the one item I don't want my opponents building.

Let's be honest - just because you can't stack it doesn't mean Black Cleaver isn't still a hell of an item to get. There's a reason AD mid is as common as it is.

Its really good for assassin types, not really for ranged AD carries. For ranged AD carries I always go IE+PD and then get a bloodthirster 3rd. 4th will be Black Cleaver/Last whisper and then Guardian Angel Last.

Question, though, what if you're going pure-tank, and you've already got a Warmogs? Spirit Visage will definitely be useful there, you must admit. MR, health, CDR so you can use your abilities more. Helpful.

First, you never go pure tank because then your useless and people ignore you. Most tanks have skills that scale off AP so getting Abysmal Sceptre or if your running support, Will of Ancients or Runic Bulwark.

 

[Farm Boy]

I see warmogs as a 2nd or 3rd defensive item. I think the best Defensive Item is still Guardian Angel. Its the one item I don't want my opponents building.

I was thinking on this a bit. GA as of S3 has a couple problems it didn't used to have. There are more armor penetration items in the game than there were in S2, and they are good enough people build them with regularity(if they are bothering to pay attention to enemy team item builds). That decreases the value on the armor it provides, increasing the comparative value of just building pure HP from the Warmogs(plus with the nerf to Death's Grasp the frequency with which you eat large amounts of %health nukes is less). The second is(correct me if I am wrong) they either increased the price, increased the cooldown on the res effect, or both. It's still a good item for the rez activation, but I think it's a harder sell now that it's armor value is more negligible when the active is on cooldown.

 

[Archbob]

I was thinking on this a bit. GA as of S3 has a couple problems it didn't used to have. There are more armor penetration items in the game than there were in S2, and they are good enough people build them with regularity(if they are bothering to pay attention to enemy team item builds). That decreases the value on the armor it provides, increasing the comparative value of just building pure HP from the Warmogs(plus with the nerf to Death's Grasp the frequency with which you eat large amounts of %health nukes is less). The second is(correct me if I am wrong) they either increased the price, increased the cooldown on the res effect, or both. It's still a good item for the rez activation, but I think it's a harder sell now that it's armor value is more negligible when the active is on cooldown.

It still provides both Armor and MR and the res effect is so crucial in late-game team fights. GA was always a bit OP late-game, that hasn't changed much. Late-game, you'll see 2 or 3 team members getting it.

 

[Rashiminos]

In DotA, you download the game, you run it, and you start off on equal footing, along with everyone else. The determinant of victory is team composition (again, not hindered by a lack of hero selection) and skill level only.

Yes, you should have.

In LoL, hero selection does not become pronounced at all (alright, excepting OP champs) until max summoner level, and only somewhat unless you're playing ranked. If you don't have enough ip for a decent collection of champs at that point, then you simply do not have the skill necessary to worry about which heroes you do and do not have. Also, BANS.

At least with my experience, The 450, and 1350 champs fill all roles and don't take too long to unlock.

Also my experience. Poppy is a unique snowflake.

I much easier to catch up from early mistakes in LoL. It was nearly impossible in DoTA. The roles are very precise in LoL. Your support is generally not going to do any damage(at least most of them don't). There's defined heroes for each lane. Yeah, if you play blind pick, people don't follow the roles thing very often but in ranked draft, each team usually does have one player for each role. The issue is that no one wants to play support most of the time.

I appreciate having good supports when I AD, and I certainly enjoy catching someone out for my team as Janna, Taric, Alistar, etc. Soraka and a poke comp is also a lot of fun.

First of all, you can buy back in Dota, which you can't do in LoL. That lowers the importance of winning a late-game teamfight right there. LoL requires far more team coordination than DoTA, DoTA has always been more about individual skill than team fighting. There are certain heroes in DoTA that do a hell lot of damage and freakin impossible to kill. You can lose the early game by quite a lot and still win a game if your team is more coordinated. The gold difference in DoTA(Losing gold when you die) makes that all but impossible. An early game advantage is far stronger in DoTA.

The gold difference matters less for some heroes in DotA. A Lich ult is still really powerful (double kill at level 6) despite that hero often being significantly lower in level and spending a fair share of gold on the team when played as support. Team fights are still significantly impacted by proper ability use as well.

Sounds rather imbalanced.

Jayce is less able to dive for carries in team fights than some other champs unless he wants to gimp poke damage. Other arguments for the other champs. On jayce counters: sustain and armor. Gap closer or return poke optional.

 

[Archbob]

Jayce is less able to dive for carries in team fights than some other champs unless he wants to gimp poke damage. Other arguments for the other champs. On jayce counters: sustain and armor. Gap closer or return poke optional.

I do ok as Cho or Wukong against Jayce in lane, but you don't really "Win" again Jayce in lane. He's a not great late game hero.

The gold difference matters less for some heroes in DotA. A Lich ult is still really powerful (double kill at level 6) despite that hero often being significantly lower in level and spending a fair share of gold on the team when played as support. Team fights are still significantly impacted by proper ability use as well.

That chain frost ult is situational though, you have to have more than 1 hero present and their team(or the hero your targetting can split from the rest of the team as well). Works best with two champions, not with 3 or more. Other Ults like Demon Witch and Slayer just do a bit too much for their level IMO. Lich is also really easy to kill.

 

[Rashiminos]

--First 15 minutes: Top lane hero, mid lane hero, two bottom lane heroes, and a jungler. Farm and don't get killed by the tower that obliterates everything in front of it. But don't worry, you can Flash out of pretty much anything you need to, and you can heal everyone, and you can teleport back home whenever you wish.

Competitive plays come with lane-switching and team turret pushes well before the 15 minute mark. Lack of such in more casual play is not an issue with the game itself.

The reason LoL laning is so strict is due to the structure of the map; no team can harass the other's jungle because there is not easy entry via a lane (except mid-lane, but who would put extra heroes in mid lane).

Walking on water helps.

In dota 2 courier can bring your items . You need not go back to base everytime you want an item . That's stupid

I suppose it's better than the handy next to lane item shop for all your up to the second needs.

In other word LOL encourage passive laning and jungling while in dota 2 the early game is more dynamic with tower divings , ganking enemy junglers, denying etc.

Passive play is conservative, dynamic play is risky and potentially an all-in endeavor. This is true in both games.

Average dota 2 game has way more kills ,deaths than lol . It has lot more ganks ,counterganks and team fights . While LOL encourages you to farm passively , safely till one big team fight and win .

I don't actually enjoy games where both teams run up the score on each other. Where is the defense and death preventation? Even so, normal games in LoL have plenty of deaths/kills. (Flashes don't save someone from a bad position.)

There's always a free champ rotation of about 15-16 champs you can try each week and it changes each week so you can always try a hero before you buy it.

Ten.

Nah, that move's really risky. Half the time, he kills himself. TF's ult and Noc's ult are way better.

All 3 of these champs can get themselves killed by improper ult use. The problem with Pantheon is his ult is really conspicuous (but deals heavy AoE damage, while noc is single target, and TF's is a tele).

Of course lol players with limited hero pool can't really counter pick right .

We've been over this. It's just not the case (either because counterpicking isn't relevant, or because by the time it is, the selection pool isn't that limited anymore).

Let's be honest - just because you can't stack it doesn't mean Black Cleaver isn't still a hell of an item to get. There's a reason AD mid is as common as it is.

Black Cleaver is the armor pen item of choice for AD casters/assassins/bruisers. Last Whisper, while less expensive, is just not as suitable for those roles (unless one has the luxury of both). If cleaver gets nerfed too far, youmuu's will come back, probably.

Question, though, what if you're going pure-tank, and you've already got a Warmogs? Spirit Visage will definitely be useful there, you must admit. MR, health, CDR so you can use your abilities more. Helpful.

If you're going pure-tank, and don't have a significant source of life replenish besides regen, then bulwark, abyssal, or banshee's are usually better choices (spirit visage is rather selfish in comparison, although on certain champions that's a good thing: xin zhao, warwick, mundo, nasus, etc).

The second is(correct me if I am wrong) they either increased the price, increased the cooldown on the res effect, or both. It's still a good item for the rez activation, but I think it's a harder sell now that it's armor value is more negligible when the active is on cooldown.

Armor had a price increase across the board, and GA had its non-rez stats reduced. GA is also arguably not that crucial in deciding the outcome of a team fight for anyone who isn't the carry (compare w/ revive+tele).

 

[Farm Boy]

I do ok as Cho or Wukong against Jayce in lane, but you don't really "Win" again Jayce in lane. He's a not great late game hero.

Jayce feels like Yorick to me. Picked as a safe choice rather than a gamble with late game rewards commensurate to the low risk. That still doesn't make getting pummeled by him for ~15 minutes any more fun.

Armor had a price increase across the board, and GA had its non-rez stats reduced. GA is also arguably not that crucial in deciding the outcome of a team fight for anyone who isn't the carry (compare w/ revive+tele).

Poor Warwick. So much weaker than he used to be due to the war on sustain.

Yea, I'm not trying to knock the GA, but unless you deal a lot of sustained DPS outside of cooldowns, so mostly AD autoattackers and maaaaaybe a corner-case caster like Ryze(who has better options to build anyways) even the rez effect is pretty useless. Like on a Malphite with anything resembling a typical build. After he's popped his ult and ground slammed a couple times watching him rez back up in the middle of a teamfight reallly isn't going to instill the terror in the enemy team that the price necessitates. On Ezreal though, maybe. I hate that warping/poking/global ulting little princess.

 

[Archbob]

Jayce feels like Yorick to me. Picked as a safe choice rather than a gamble with late game rewards commensurate to the low risk. That still doesn't make getting pummeled by him for ~15 minutes any more fun.

Yorick can carry, he's quite good late game.

Poor Warwick. So much weaker than he used to be due to the war on sustain.

Warwick has definately gotten stronger due to the changes they made in jungle and the easy items that hunter knife builds into.

 

[NetGear]

I'm a dota player so I can't help comparing lol with it

I've heard lol has more abilities which helps if you wanna press more action buttons, whereas dota feels less involving.

Also melee vs range I hear is handled better... so sas a lol friend player. But I never could get into it really cause I'm already trained to dota ways (played the first one) so dota 2 feels better for me.

Regardless these moab games like many said isn't really fun in pub games. Only time its worth playing is when you have about 3,5,6,10 players together. That 3 and 5 is just so you can roflstomp pub games with your friends. Game dynamic changes way to immensely depending on whether you are playing bots, pubs or actual team games.

 

[Rashiminos]

On Ezreal though, maybe. I hate that warping/poking/global ulting little princess.

I usually find that a stun or good late-game burst (draven, sivir in a duel) puts him in his place. Otherwise knock the walls in front of him down and laugh as he runs.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yorick can carry, he's quite good late game.




Warwick has definately gotten stronger due to the changes they made in jungle and the easy items that hunter knife builds into.

Yorick can, but it isn't the easiest thing in the world to do. The ult really keeps him relevant late.

Warwick definitely needed all the help he can get. The changes to his Q and AA healing just left him so.....lackluster. Not worthless(again because of his ult) but definitely not good.

I usually find that a stun or good late-game burst (draven, sivir in a duel) puts him in his place.

That puts almost anyone built as an AD carry in their place! It's just the super aggravating early/mid game combo of respectable burst, high mobility, and decent poke that makes it not unlikely for Ez to have a significant build lead. Ezreal, I hate that gal.

 

[Archbob]

That puts almost anyone built as an AD carry in their place! It's just the super aggravating early/mid game combo of respectable burst, high mobility, and decent poke that makes it not unlikely for Ez to have a significant build lead. Ezreal, I hate that gal.

The AA is a lot better than what it used to be. Its not the healing, its the extra damage that matters, he can jungle much faster and its more potent for ganks. Also his ult scaling with AD helps a bit.