Lebensraum - Alternate Ideas Brainstorm

It becomes OP when you stockpile great generals throughout the game/faith purchase a bunch of them and then tunnel through enemy territory during a peace treaty. You can annihilate your strongest neighbor without them ever having a chance if you tunnel all the way to their capital, claim all land around it, surround the city with your six strongest land units and surround those with artilleries. I have done this and as soon as the peace treaty ended declared war and taken my opponent's 3-4 largest cities in one turn. They can do nothing because we don't have open borders, so beyond a garrison they can't bring in their military within a few tiles of their own cities. Very fun but feels like cheating.
How many times will anyone do it, and how many times will it still be fun? There may be 3, or even 5, people on this planet who enjoy doing it every single game... So what??
If the AI did it again and again, and could not be stopped, that might be reason enough for a change. The player can just not do it, if it feels like cheating.
 
How about citadels can't be placed within 2 tiles of another citadel (up from 1 tile currently)
Then you can't counter-citadel any of your lost tiles back if your enemy does it first.

The solution to this is actually teaching the AI to do it. Then everyone will propose to get rid of this.
 
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Just a random thought, maybe this tennet could allow to build fortification next to another fortification, but cannot be adjecent to two fortification at the same time? And give like additional 10-15 extra defence.
Could also do something like "claim one random nearby tile, if its not already claimed".
But im not sure, if it is consistent enought with the "Lebensraum" wording.
Lebensraum for me was ideology, that was supporting invading other countries, which for me sounds like a military focused economy, rather than fortification related trait.

In case you’re interested, here’s a great definition of the term Lebensraum as it was used in Nazi ideology.


Tl;Dr It’s inherently based on the believe that inferior nations exist which need to be driven out and exterminated to make space for the superior German race. Making this, in part, the underlying rationale and ideology for the holocaust.

Which is why I think we should rename this tenet. But people seem to really like the flavourful name.
 
How many times will anyone do it, and how many times will it still be fun? There may be 3, or even 5, people on this planet who enjoy doing it every single game... So what??
If the AI did it again and again, and could not be stopped, that might be reason enough for a change. The player can just not do it, if it feels like cheating.
That's a valid opinion, but some people prefer to patch out exploits, and there's precedent for that in VP. For example, the recent change to make one time payments not tradable for per turn payments because it was so easily exploited by players.
 
How about:
Whenever you annex a city, immediately claim an extra radius of tiles (whether they are neutral or enemy owned).


Tl;Dr It’s inherently based on the believe that inferior nations exist which need to be driven out and exterminated to make space for the superior German race. Making this, in part, the underlying rationale and ideology for the holocaust.
From what I understand of the article, Lebensraum essentially meant "Eastern Europe rightfully belongs to the Germans". This came in two parts, 1. Conquering Eastern Europe 2. Depopulating the conquered territories of Slavs and Jews to make way for German "immigrants".

If we apply the idea more generally, and in civ terms, this would mean bonuses after acquiring land (which we have), and what else? Our closest version of #2 would be razing the city to make way for one of your cities. Something like:
When you finish razing a city, the city's territory is given to your nearest city.
 
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If we apply the idea more generally, and in civ terms, this would mean bonuses after acquiring land (which we have), and what else? Our closest version of #2 would be razing the city to make way for one of your cities. Something like:

That could be interesting, if possible that you get to keep the land. There is an authority policy to burn at twice the speed to isn't there? I take it so rarely. Or how about when you burn a city to the ground you spawn a free settler (I guess at the time it will be of a higher level) automatically in your closest city?
 
Time for a proposal, I guess?
Well since all we did was straight up nerf lebensauum, which was explicitly not the point of the thread…I would say no.

I don’t think any of these thoughts are fully ready for prime time, better to continue discussion and look to next Congress to propose something
 
Then you can't counter-citadel any of your lost tiles back if your enemy does it first.

The solution to this is actually teaching the AI to do it. Then everyone will propose to get rid of this.
This is the best solution. AI lebensraum spam would be incredibly funny.
 
Just had anorher random thought:
"While at war, natural cultural boarder growth can claim enemy teritory.
Territory claimend this way gives x culture as instant boost.
While grabbing a city, get instant culture boost, scaled with number of city plots"

It sounds like it has a a mix of ideological and imperialistic factor in it with some cultural rewards for grabing teritoriy.
 
I don't see how science or culture helps you get more kills.

Culture directly gives you more tiles.
 
It's already a positive feedback loop -- expanding borders gives 10 culture and golden age points scaling with era.
 
I don't see how science or culture helps you get more kills.
Science can unlock higher tech units and some policies improves warring. Both science and policies makes the empire better in general, so it can have better and more unitsm
 
Moderator Action: Pro-Nazi pontification will not be tolerated in this thread. You can discuss how to rebalance the tenet. Debate on whether the name is appropriate is a fair topic to discuss, but please tread carefully. Minimizing and excusing Nazi atrocities is not acceptable, however. Thread edited.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
How about:




From what I understand of the article, Lebensraum essentially meant "Eastern Europe rightfully belongs to the Germans". This came in two parts, 1. Conquering Eastern Europe 2. Depopulating the conquered territories of Slavs and Jews to make way for German "immigrants".

If we apply the idea more generally, and in civ terms, this would mean bonuses after acquiring land (which we have), and what else? Our closest version of #2 would be razing the city to make way for one of your cities. Something like:
Hey, thanks for engaging with this. And this certainly goes out to the whole community/the people in this thread, not only to you. Also, I certainly don't want to derail this thread. I just saw the opportunity to adress people that are actually very familiar with the tenet and maybe its historical background. If preferred, I can certainly move this elsewhere.

You are correct. There was a meaning of the term in Germany before WW2, which was comparable to any imperialistic idiology, i.e. let's conquer some land for it's natural resources, riches etc. and during/after WW2 where it became a specific Nazi idiology. The former certainly included the killing and subjugation of the native population as one has seen during all ages of humanity. The latter included the special Nazi brand of race theory and the planning and execution of the extermination of millions of people in the occupied countries. One could certainly argue that there's an older Lebensraum definition which is what is referred to here, but the same is true for the meaning of the swastika symbol, the meaning/connotion of the word Führer (German for leader, but now it mostly refers to or invokes Hitler) etc. The meaning of words can change

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the historically correct gameplay mechanisms of this tenet, i.e. if it grants the right bonuses or whatever. I think we should rename it because it is in bad taste to use this specific term because of the connotation/implied meaning it carries (btw. it's a Vox Populi name/concept, it's not included in the base game). It's a special brand of evil that shouldn't be used as a the name for a game play mechanic that "...is so cool and fun we couldn't bare to part with it." If it was just called Imperialism (I know, that term already exists) I would be okay with it, because it is a general concept. Lebensraum is a very specific thing that is connected to some of the worst atrocities every committed. The same reasoning that was applied when it was decided to remove slavery mechanics from CIV5 or not include a "Napalm bombing" promotion that grants +25% damage vs. Infantry should be applied here (and the list of things that do exist but maybe should not be included of course goes on).

CIV is a game that allows for some sort of an alternate history simulation because its concepts are grounded in human history. However, it is not intended to allow for a complete replica of human history. The game devs made deliberate decisions to omit/obfuscate certain aspects of human history that were so terrible, they should not be used as a mere game play mechanic. I think we should follow this example here and find a different name for this tenet.
 
Isn't this a positive feedback loop?
It might be a problem, if you for example make new game starting from information era, but in normal games, when city had multiple border growths, this boost would have to be massive.
to break the game. And since this is in a way passive bonus, i wouldnt expect it to be stupidly op. Dont think that would break a game, if you get even 10% of current progress towards border growth.
 
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