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Legacy epic mod: preview thread

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by WildWeazel, Sep 12, 2008.

  1. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    That pushes Masonry and Metalworking back awfully far though. I was thinking of switching the prereq for Slavery to Agriculture, with everything else staying as it is.
    Spoiler Wikipedia :

    Evidence of slavery predates written records, and has existed in many cultures.[11] Slavery is rare among hunter–gatherer populations, as slavery is a system of social stratification. Mass slavery also requires economic surpluses and a high population density to be viable. Due to these factors, the practice of slavery would have only proliferated after the invention of agriculture during the Neolithic Revolution about 11,000 years ago.[12]


    Good point on pottery and trade. I made it a prereq for Metalworking (which I'm renaming Smelting) because early copper smelting was probably done in kilns.
     
  2. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    I made those changes, making IMO a pretty solid first era for gameplay and historicity.
    (Agriculture, Pottery) -> Urbanization -> Legal Code, Construction
    Agriculture -> Slavery -> Epic Works
    Metalworking = Smelting
    Spoiler :
     
  3. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    Looks good :)
     
  4. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    Since I'm going to be writing (50k words of) a novel next month I probably won't spend much if any time on the mod. So I'm thinking that I may be able to get a playable beta of the first era together before then, if people are interested in play-testing 1/4 of a mod.
     
  5. Wolfshade

    Wolfshade Little Winger

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    WildWeazel, not a kind of criticism but a kind of hint - bazaar, market, coin mint are the same functionality structures. I already told to RickFGS I didn't like in the "Double Your Pleasure" mod one simple thing - scribe, school, university, National University (small wonder) are the same functionality improvements and it doesn't clear whether player need to build it or not, and if yes - should they build all of them in key cities only / or in all cities / or some other variant. So, I'd like to repeat, it's a kind of hint, not a criticism (I do believe everyone is free to do anything but have to remember about the responsibility for their action).
     
  6. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    The buildings with +50% Science, Luxury or Tax are always stackable, i.e. if more than 1 is present, the benefit will apply more than once. So in that sense they are useful improvements.
     
  7. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    Don't be shy, I welcome criticism :)

    Do you have an issue with the redundancy of their historical function, or the effects they provide? As Virote said, 50% bonuses stack (some other effects don't), so you'll get for example more science with both a school and a scribe than with either one alone.

    As far as the number of similar buildings goes, some are temporary. Several Ancient era improvements, including the bazaar, scribe, and shrine, will go obsolete in the Middle Ages to steer you towards a "dark age" as your economy declines. Also the coin mint increases tax revenues while the market increases luxuries.

    In general, every improvement will grant a helpful bonus that will not be redundant with any contemporary improvement, but you have to weigh the effects against the maintenance cost, pollution, or unhappiness. Often later improvements, especially for happiness, will have the same (stacking) effect as an earlier one but a higher maintenance cost. So you should only continue to build new improvements if they will provide a net gain.
     
  8. Wolfshade

    Wolfshade Little Winger

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    The difference is the key. :)
    I do know & understand improvements cumulative effect, but when you have scribe +25% science, school +25%, library +25%, university +25%, National University +50% and all these available within a single era - it becomes unclear.
    So I tried to focus an attention on the differentiation of the functions & avoid empty doubling of the same functionality improvements, that's all. :) The "more" doesn't always mean "better".

    A very good example of the differentiation - a railroad (increases luxuries) & bank (tax revenue) in the "Worldwide" by AnthonyBoscia. Not market & bank - these both serve for monetary circulation, from the quick look - but totally different (from the quick look, again) improvements.

    A lot of things in my head right now, but, I hope, it became more understandable - what I meant.
     
  9. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    Point taken. I'm already trying to plan out the improvements for the remaining eras to make sure that they are evenly distributed and unique. There are some apparent duplicates, but many of them go obsolete or have special requirements. I'll post a list of those later on.


    Now, about populations. I've always wanted to make all units require population. I also wanted to raise food consumption to make irrigation and resources more important. Those rules are competing against each other to prevent your cities from growing. I may have found a good balance though.

    First, I made all buildable units require 1 population point. Settlers stay at 2, since I recently read that the AI assumes that and will try to build a Settler in a size 3 city even if it won't grow. That reduces the net growth rate of your cities. I also made most offense units enslave Slaves (workers) which can join cities. So when you win battles, you're effectively converting some of the enemy population to your own.

    Then, I upped food consumption to 3 per citizen and raised the food output of most terrain accordingly. Here are the new stats for food output:
    Code:
    TERR        Base    W/ Irrigation
    Desert        0        2
    Plains        1        3
    Grassland     3        5
    Tundra        1        2
    Fl plain      4        6
    Hills         2
    Forest        2
    Jungle        1
    Marsh         1
    Coast         2
    Sea           1
    
    The interesting thing here is that when you combine this with the Standard Tile Penalty, undeveloped grassland no longer supports a whole unit of population (nor do irrigated desert and tundra, making those regions essentially non-viable). This not only makes city placement vital, but also makes early irrigation even in fertile regions. On the other hand, the fact that growing cities now tend to have a larger surplus than before helps to offset the effect of building units.

    Finally, I upped the population cap for cities to 8 for level 1 and 16 for level 2 to allow a larger population buffer for building units.*

    Now, this is a sweeping set of changes that upsets the whole growth dynamic of the game. I wasn't sure if the AI could handle it, but I just made a quick test run through the first 50 turns and it seems to be coping with the changes fairly well. Almost all of the civs I've encountered on this crowded map have at least 2 cities, and I'm actually falling behind militarily.

    It is certainly possible however to start in a location (such as plains with no accessible fresh water) that will not allow you to grow to size 3 and build a settler, which seems to have happened to one civ in this game. I may have to provide a pair of settlers at the start to avoid this, which nicely offsets the fact that you won't be able to build any more for a little while.


    *I'm considering raising the latter to 21, so that you can fully utilize the adjacent tiles with a level 1 city and the "fat X" with a level 2. Several "big" late-game improvements require the Sanitation System (Hospital replacement) to limit them to large cities, so there is still an incentive to build it even if you're not in a location to support a population that high. Although, I haven't done the math on this, but the new food numbers may actually make metros more common in the temperate regions, once railroads and bonus resources are factored in.
     
  10. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    I just solved the most perplexing crash that has ever been solved. Don't reuse your resources palette for resources_shadows.
     
  11. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    Still agonizing over Civ traits. I actually decided that if I'm going to pursue a Creative trait as discussed here there are plenty of unique 2-trait combinations without resorting to that primary and secondary nonsense.

    So I came up with this setup which I'm pretty happy with, but unfortunately it leaves no logical place for the poor Zulu. I can't find a single example of them being anything but Militaristic and Expansionist, but that is most definitely the Mongols' spot.



    Now I don't really see why the Zulu should be considered Expansionist, but I can't really see them being anything else either. Political maybe, but I'm not willing to bump Rome from that spot.

    So, what to do with the Zulu? I suppose I could just make an exception and double them up with the Mongols, but there has to be a reasonable arrangement here.

    edit: waitwaitwait, hold everything. Russia is descended from the Rus, which was an offshoot of the Norse meaning "rowers", right? Could a case be made for Russia being Political and Seafaring? Was Russia ever a maritime culture as Russia? If so, I could do with moving Rome to Political/Expansionist and Zulu to Political/Militaristic. :hmm:
     
  12. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I don't think Russia was ever particularly maritime.

    Zulu could fit in that commercial/expansionist slot? After all, their capital is Zimbabwe, which was a powerful trading city. Exp - gives scouts, better at exploring, etc, representing the generally migratory nature of peoples in their region.
     
  13. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

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    Ethiopia could easily swap in the Pol/Sea if you're so inclined, and Zulu put in to Pol/Agr.

    Axum established a strong sailing legacy, and the Zulu Empire instituted many political reforms under Shaka.
     
  14. Balam-Agab

    Balam-Agab God King

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    Russia was never really much of a naval power.

    You could, however, make them Expansionist/Commercial as the russians were big traders for much of their history (although the whole socialist thing throws a spanner in the works).
     
  15. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    I'd rather drop Expansionist than Militaristic, but that's a possibility. What about Zulu as Mil/Com and Mali and Exp/Com? I'm not sure which one of them better deserves Militaristic.
    Also not a bad idea, but again I'd prefer Zulu to be Militaristic. I may just move Ethiopia there anyway, because I have a lot of Agricultural and not so many Seafaring.
    That's a good fallback plan. I'd rather bump someone else out of Militaristic than move both Rome and Russia to accommodate the Zulu.
     
  16. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    Alright, well here is the final (until I change it) lineup. This actually turned out incredibly well balanced across the traits, so now I just need to make sure the traits themselves are balanced.


    Now obviously- as you can see from this in-depth analysis- I'm not going to have a playable* Era 1 together before November 1 rolls around. At that point I'll have to set this aside and start banging wildly on my keyboard until 50,000 words of literature falls out, after which I'll probably be so stark raving mad that I'll go back to playing Civ5 and sucking on my toes. So despite such overwhelming interest I won't be able to release a betaalpha in the immediate future.

    *"playable" is a vague term, greatly dependent on your idea of "fun." It has been technically playable in the sense that it won't explode in your face for quite a while now, but in the interest of making a good mod I'm more interested in giving folks an enjoyable, complete-if-not-polished experience that results in meaningful gameplay evaluation, rather than sending them out like cattle in a minefield.
     
  17. Wolfshade

    Wolfshade Little Winger

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    WildWeazel, it's very interesting to follow your thread and I will tell you 2 things.

    First - mod designing should be a fun to creator as well as to the player. For example, I paused for a while a work on my world map (a task of placing resources currently) not to start to hate it. :) I spent a lot of time drawing it, now I need some break and time to think about what's done.

    Second - I wish you to be successful in the literature challenge fighting 50 000 other people... Oh, I mean words. :lol:
     
  18. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

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    There are days when I, for one, would rather face the people than the words ... :badcomp:
     
  19. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

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    :bump:

    and we're back
     
  20. Wolfshade

    Wolfshade Little Winger

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    Yeah, after 50,000 words there's not much left unsaid. :) Welcome back, we're ready to read your wise (no even a drop of sarcasm) posts!
     

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