1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Legacy epic mod: preview thread

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by WildWeazel, Sep 12, 2008.

  1. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Messages:
    9,780
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The lone and level sands
    Ah yes, we modders and our epic mods :D

    I've been intrigued by the notion that simple math precedes writing -- basically glyphs on an amphora so you know what's in it and how much.

    So personally I do:

    [Pottery] => [Glyphs] => ([Math] & [Writing]) + [Polytheism] => [Code Of Laws] {City-State}

    [Glyphs] + [Mysticism] => [Polytheism]

    I would also assume that "Domestication" and "Urbanization" shouldn't really be Techs, as they're sort of required to build cities in the first place.

    Also, Slavery (or perhaps "Caste System") also seems endemic to all "first cities."

    Lastly, I would place Skirmishing before Warfare, as truly primitive warfare wasn't about destroying armies or capturing cities, but rather about territory and slaves.

    Just my $.02.

    Best Regards,

    Oz
     
  2. Wolfshade

    Wolfshade Little Winger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    982
    Location:
    Minsk, Belarus
    WildWeazel, if I can - there's my humble $.02 too.

    I'll tell you about my own observation, just as a player who want to get some fun - any new tech should provide something new & useful. If it isn't - a little disappointment. A sum of little disappointments may lead to a total "booo".

    In my mod, I entered a tech for settler building. I'll tell you why - if AI can build settlers from the start, it will do immediately. So, you can have an AI civ of 3 unprotected cities (the capital can be protected with a starting unit) - and if you spent a time on building attacking units, these cities will belong to you, -1 civ in the game. If settlers' building not available from the start, AI builds a number of defending units. "Finally" having settlers, AI already has a little army to protect itself & cities it builds. This is my "grand strategy" for the regular game beginning.

    Sorry for my 2 cents, I didn't want to seriously interrupt a thread.
     
  3. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    Location:
    %CIV3%\Conquests\Scenarios\
    Oz- thanks for the suggestions. I'll take another look at the other early techs too. I've made some changes since that screenshot was posted, such as dropping the "Classical Era" transition tech.

    Absolutely. One of my rules when I designed the tech tree is that I would never have a tech that didn't provide something new. If it's only for certain civs, then it's an optional tech. If I just want to delay progress, make the succeeding techs more expensive. So I'm not trying to add "down time" to the tech tree. I'm just wondering if it's better to start out with more options than to have to research the basics.

    I'm still considering that. I don't think it's unrealistic to prevent the AI from settler-spamming right away. I thought about having Settlers require Urbanization but that seems very late. Maybe something like Masonry and Agriculture leading to "Permanent Settlements"
     
  4. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    Location:
    %CIV3%\Conquests\Scenarios\
    Here is my first era tech tree at the moment, if this is at all legible.
     
  5. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Messages:
    9,780
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The lone and level sands
    As a matter of probable historical veracity, as well as to avoid having Chariots around too early, I also do:

    Pottery {potter's wheel} => Wheel

    ... Which can also require a separate, "Era=None" Tech to keep New World Civs from progressing ahistorically, if desired.

    Best,

    Oz
     
  6. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    Location:
    %CIV3%\Conquests\Scenarios\
    Interesting choice. Note that chariots won't actually be buildable until you've researched The Wheel and Domestication, since Horses require the latter. I could almost remove The Wheel altogether, but then it wouldn't feel like Civ at all.
     
  7. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,402
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Éire
    The earliest known wheel is from around 3500 BC, with war carts coming about 2500 BC, and chariots proper coming about around 2000 BC.

    Pottery plus Domestication could lead to Chariotry, with The Wheel not involved at all, or you could have The Wheel give a basic War Cart, with Chariotry giving a proper chariot unit?
     
  8. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    Location:
    %CIV3%\Conquests\Scenarios\
    I definitely want a tech named "The Wheel" but since Chariots won't be available until Domestication anyway it would make sense for The Wheel to require Pottery and be a tier-2 tech parallel to Domestication.

    I also think I'll make Writing require Pottery, as Oz mentioned. I don't have any reason to add an Alphabet or Glyphs tech in between.

    One other thing I don't like is that Boat-building, providing coastal trade links via the Port, is a tier-1 tech now that Exploration is out. I originally had Wood Working leading to Boat-building and Forestry but I seem to have dropped the others. I don't see how Boat-building would require anything else that's currently in the first 2 tiers, though. Perhaps Trade? Weren't the first large-ish boats built for trading up and down rivers?
     
  9. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    Location:
    %CIV3%\Conquests\Scenarios\
    Here's a much cleaner version. I updated all of the provisions, moved Forestry back to where it belongs, and changed a few prereqs. Overall I'm pretty satisfied with this.
     
  10. Jerry'sGoldfish

    Jerry'sGoldfish Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,487
    Location:
    garlicpalace
    u changed the name of urbanistics with administration- in ancient time urbanism was a factor provoked by the military aspect of a town, and in newer times urbanism has something to do with health...
     
  11. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,402
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Éire
    The Wheel could represent the spoked wheel, appearing around 2500, with them being employed on chariots proper.

    There seems to be some things appearing quite late in the tree. Stonehenge is contemporaneous with chariotry, but so is the Great Pyramid of Giza :)

    Overall, really nice tree though! Lots of things to research :D
     
  12. Jerry'sGoldfish

    Jerry'sGoldfish Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,487
    Location:
    garlicpalace
    quinzy, i think stonehenge is earlier than wheel, there is also archeological evidence on how they brought the stones to the site if i remember. there were many documentaries on tv about that, and also the latest archeological investigation. stonehenge is before the wheel. but keops used some sort of wheel segment attached to a stone block (two such wheels formed around a block). ;)
     
  13. Quinzy

    Quinzy Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,402
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Éire
    Stonehenge and the wheel are contemporary, even if the wheel was not brough to the British Isles at the time of it's construction. By 2500, while thee British Islanders were using logs, those of the Fertile Crescent were using wheeled carts, wagons and chariots.
     
  14. Jerry'sGoldfish

    Jerry'sGoldfish Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,487
    Location:
    garlicpalace
    btw who brought the wheel to britain??
     
  15. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    Location:
    %CIV3%\Conquests\Scenarios\
    Yes, I'm flip-flopping on some of the names. That one is supposed to represent the centralization of government and economic power around a developing city-state, and maybe some early city planning. "Urbanization" as Oz mentioned implies the transition from scattered tribal villages to cities, which would come much earlier. I'm still toying with the idea of a tech requirement for Settlers, so "Urbanization" may be recycled into a new tech in between Agriculture and Construction.

    I'm not quite happy with where some of the wonders fall chronologically, but for gameplay purposes I don't want many of them to be available very early. The AI shouldn't be committing to 100 turns of building in the ancient period, especially if it's going to get its first settlers halfway through that.

    I'm not sure if that's the best place for Slavery either. It seems like it should be tied in with Warfare, and maybe Agriculture. Slavery doesn't make sense until there's a social structure and specialization.

    Thanks. All 4 eras are going to be like this, spanning from 6000 BC to AD 2050. I've borrowed much of it from other epic mods, so I can only hope that it's historically reasonable!
     
  16. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    Location:
    %CIV3%\Conquests\Scenarios\
    This was entirely unintentional, but I just realized you can advance to the Middle Ages by selecting as few as 3 techs- Diplomacy, Tactics, and Fermentation - whose prerequisites are almost mutually exclusive. It seems that all you need to become civilized is to learn the 3 ways of solving your problems: talk it out, fight it out, or get drunk. :D
     
  17. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    9,372
    Location:
    Skaville UK Reputation: 1
    Since getting drunk usually ends up in one of the former, perhaps make Diplomacy and Tactics require Fermentation? :p
     
  18. Jerry'sGoldfish

    Jerry'sGoldfish Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,487
    Location:
    garlicpalace
    luaghing out loud, virote.
     
  19. WildWeazel

    WildWeazel hard-coded Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2003
    Messages:
    6,961
    Location:
    %CIV3%\Conquests\Scenarios\
    I think I'll replace Forestry with Urbanization to provide Settlers. Timber will be made available from the start (we've been chopping down trees forever) and Clear Forest will go back to Engineering.

    Meanwhile I'm still not sure what to do with Slavery.
     
  20. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias I saw the Great Library burn.

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Messages:
    9,780
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The lone and level sands
    Thought: place Slavery between Skirmishing and Warfare and make Slavery a precursor Tech for Mining. Also IMHO Pottery makes a better precursor for Trade (gotta tote that Greek vino around in amphorae after all ;) ) rather than Metal Working.

    Best,

    Oz
     

Share This Page