Lemming Enemy Fleet

[Lucius_]

I'm pretty sure cities in CiV and BERT have armies in them. I mean, these aren't civilians launching missiles at attackers. The city strength and hp is a representation of the cities standing army's strength and available defenses. Just because you don't have a unit in the city doesn't mean there is no military there. Imo, removing city melee defense entirely seems too much.

 

[Callonia]

That traditional style of taking cities is tedious and needlessly tactically limiting.

Flanking is typically the name of the game for cavalry, or cycling hit, run, heal attacks when that can't happen.

In real history, cities were starved out and trying to somehow open the gates (disabling defenses would be an analog) was a big deal.

Fundamentally though, cities typically fall without an army to defend them.
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And I repeat that from a game-play perspective it trivializes melee units if one is ever actually winning a war.

You have trivalized the melee units by removing the melee damage by attacking. Every single unit in your mod is now "ranged" with melee units being given the ability to capture.

And melee units isn't trivial. Without them my ranged units and artillery would die a terrible death.

 

[Galgus]

I'm pretty sure cities in CiV and BERT have armies in them. I mean, these aren't civilians launching missiles at attackers. The city strength and hp is a representation of the cities standing army's strength and available defenses. Just because you don't have a unit in the city doesn't mean there is no military there. Imo, removing city melee defense entirely seems too much.

Armies in them are better represented by the common tactic of a ranged unit in the city.

It would likely only be a small garrison manning the city...and the city bombard already shows that.
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@Callonia

To repeat myself again, they are unchanged in terms of attacking units: the mod only changes attacks on cities.

And by what logic does enabling a tactic for them trivialize them?

Melee units still work as a wall for ranged, and it is still a potent, dare I say ideal combination: but it should not be required to take unguarded cities.

 

[poom3619]

@Galgus, Why I had a feeling you should bold and/or enlarge the text to make sure you don't have to repeat that again?

It is depend a lot on how anyone think a city with strong defense but no moveable military unit means. I think it more like a fortified city with mostly civilian. Some can think like Lucius_, Strong defense means armies with it. Which either can be true. But I for one don't really think a city that surrounded by a mob of enemy shouldn't fend for itself without military presence, which represented by military unit.

 

[Callonia]

Armies in them are better represented by the common tactic of a ranged unit in the city.

It would likely only be a small garrison manning the city...and the city bombard already shows that.
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@Callonia

To repeat myself again, they are unchanged in terms of attacking units: the mod only changes attacks on cities.

And by what logic does enabling a tactic for them trivialize them?

Melee units still work as a wall for ranged, and it is still a potent, dare I say ideal combination: but it should not be required to take unguarded cities.

Yes, you are trivalizing the melee units by making them take no damage from attacking cities.

If a city doesn't have any of the defense infrastructures built then it is hence, unguarded. Which is represented by how easily they can fold to melee units. But if a city builds any of defense infrastructure then it is guarded as represented by permanent unseenable garrisons manning them.

But here's the catch, it isn't invincible. It will always fall to a real attack not halfassed rush. But it'll only fall if you are unable to reinforce it and be present in strength. As you can see in the screenshot, AI made a halfassed attack and paid the price for it. If Huatama brought like three more vindicators and spent first 1-3 turns bombarding the city then the edicts would rush in and bash the city away for capture.

Even if Huatama had succeeded in taking the city of Aquaria.... he won't been able to keep it anyways. For I have a large fleet dreadnought/cannonades that is roughly 3 turns away. We're talking in the area of 20+ ships protecting my aquatic cities.

Only if Huatama bruoght like 40-50 ships that is like at least half edicts and vindicators.. I would've been in for a real fight. If he brought 100, I would've gotten overwhelmed initially but after that, who knows.

And plus the faction i'm playing in the screenshot is North Sea Alliance with an boost of 60% strength for aquatic cities yo. Their cities is much stronger than average cities. If I remember right, Aquaria is now at 242 strength.

If the attacker wants to overwhelm the defending forces, general rule is to bring three times of what the defending side has.

 

[Galgus]

@Galgus, Why I had a feeling you should bold and/or enlarge the text to make sure you don't have to repeat that again?

It is depend a lot on how anyone think a city with strong defense but no moveable military unit means. I think it more like a fortified city with mostly civilian. Some can think like Lucius_, Strong defense means armies with it. Which either can be true. But I for one don't really think a city that surrounded by a mob of enemy shouldn't fend for itself without military presence, which represented by military unit.

Personally I favor high city health and low city self-defence, so they can hold out long enough for an army to arrive without truly fending off an invading force on its own.
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@Callonia

I don't think of sucking against cities as the defining trait of melee units, but to each their own opinion.

There is nothing interesting about bombarding an unguarded capital till it falls - or worse, needing a tech for something with 3 range before a real assault can begin.

My logic is that colonies trying to get by without a military without an emergency energy reserve should inherently risk falling to an attack - rush or not.

I think we both agree that the AI doesn't build enough units, though.

I frankly couldn't care less about that nerfing the NSA's bonus - changes can always be made.

If the defender's army falls, so should their cities.

(If they don't replace them in time.)

Defender's bonuses are generally far too strong as of now.

 

[Callonia]

Personally I favor high city health and low city self-defence, so they can hold out long enough for an army to arrive without truly fending off an invading force on its own.
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@Callonia

I don't think of sucking against cities as the defining trait of melee units, but to each their own opinion.

There is nothing interesting about bombarding an unguarded capital till it falls - or worse, needing a tech for something with 3 range before a real assault can begin.

My logic is that colonies trying to get by without a military without an emergency energy reserve should inherently risk falling to an attack - rush or not.

I think we both agree that the AI doesn't build enough units, though.

I frankly couldn't care less about that nerfing the NSA's bonus - changes can always be made.

If the defender's army falls, so should their cities.

(If they don't replace them in time.)

Defender's bonuses are generally far too strong as of now.

I did have 10k+ energy reserve before I took that screenshot.... That was used to rushbuy extra defense buildings and units to buy time before my real fleet arrives which I planned to build up slowly in first place. I see that we agree on some things and disagree on other things.

 

[Lord Shadow]

If Huatama brought like three more vindicators and spent first 1-3 turns bombarding the city then the edicts would rush in and bash the city away for capture.

(...)

Only if Huatama bruoght like 40-50 ships that is like at least half edicts and vindicators.. I would've been in for a real fight.

I get what you're saying, and in theory I agree. But we all know the AI can't fight like that, and while we may not entirely agree with Galgus' methods, it's true we probably need to start thinking about making compromises to make the AI opponents more dangerous. In this case, Civ5 added complex city combat mechanics which were great for human players but left the AI befuddled, and in the absence of significant AI improvement...

 

[Galgus]

I did have 10k+ energy reserve before I took that screenshot.... That was used to rushbuy extra defense buildings and units to buy time before my real fleet arrives which I planned to build up slowly in first place. I see that we agree on some things and disagree on other things.

Energy reserve rush buying is a legitimate defender's advantage, though it's obviously not quite as effective as having an army ready when the invasion comes.

@Lord Shadow

Since I was never a fan of said city combat mechanics, it's win-win for me.