Lenin

[CaptainF]

A skilled revolutionary and politician.

A terrible ruler and despot.

 

[Tulkas12]

Yea, he was a despot. He was a zealot. His cause was flawed to begin with. He was no better than later communists who still struggled with the same problems.

... You cannot get rid of the elite classes of the world, you can only change who holds those positions... I for one am a fan of the classical liberal idea... to each as to his own ability...

 

[Babbler]

Winner of the award in year 1939 and 1942.

So was Hitler.

 

[nonconformist]

As was Khrushchev and Khomeni.

 

[ComradeDavo]

... You cannot get rid of the elite classes of the world, you can only change who holds those positions... I for one am a fan of the classical liberal idea... to each as to his own ability...

Thats not a 'liberal' idea, thats a communist ideal. Liberalism means freedom, which includes freedom to make profit!

 

[Evil Tyrant]

Uncle Joe was better.

 

[Commy]

Yes. Lenin wasn't as good as Stalin...

...at killing people.

During Stalin's ruling USSR:
1) won the Great Patriotic War;
2) made nukes;
3) created heavy industry.
Also there was no corruption during Stalin's ruling, because everebody could be shooted for taking/accepting briberies.

Have you read any of the point sthat have been made so far in this thread? As i've already said, i think leninw as far from being a good leader, and if you disagree then I would like to know why!

So, add all your arguments WITHOUT ANY EMOTIONS in one post please.

 

[ComradeDavo]

So, add all your arguments WITHOUT ANY EMOTIONS in one post please.

Err...well if you can't be bothered to go back and read the thread then heres my main posts condensed into one, with the post number linked to...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4114450&postcount=37
Lenin was 2 things

1)A terriable leader who made many mistakes and split the European/Russian left-wing into rival factions

2)A brutal tyrant who cared nothing for peoples lives

I've studied Lenin a fair bit for history lessons in the past and got round to reading his biography by Robery Service last year, as well as looking at sources on him from a wide range of viewpoints. I have concluded that whilst he certaianlly did have a huge impact he also effectively ruined any chance of left-wing co-operation in Russia and his policies had no cosideration for human costs, whilst his betryal at Kronstadt where so many 'real communsits' were slaughtered by Lenin and the Red Army just goes to show that it was more about him and his people gaining power rather than a real workign class revolution.

If Lenin had been more willing to co-operate with fellow European/Russian left-wing groups, given the first revolution a chance to work and develop a democracy in Russia and had actually developed empathy towards people rather than seeing them as statistics then perhaps we could have had a very different history.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4114941&postcount=39
Indeed, Lenin was very brutal in 'dealing' with political opposistion, so much so that I think he actually really harmed himself by driving away political allies. Had he been more willing to co-oprate and got more left-wing groups onside then it could have been possiable to maybe even help the German communsist take power there, when you think about revolutionairy strategy on a Europe wide scale it makes the best sense for the varying groups to co-oprate with each other. As it was the German revolution rather spectacuarly failed.

I would also add that alot of his writings with contradictory and reactionairy, and that I think that had the whites got some organised structure and co-opertaed more with each other the Reds would probably have lost the civil war, I mean when you look at it it really seems surprising that the Reds won. The defeat in Poland showed that the Red Army could be beaten rather spectucarly.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4114972&postcount=40
Just to comment on Lenin's 'popularity' today, I think that many people glorify him and try and make out that it was Stalin who messed up communism in Russia. No doubt this is partly due to the Soviets themselves glofiying Lenin after they ahd decided that Stalin wasn't exactly Mr niceman.

What people need to understand is that Lenin was responisable for the way that communism came out in Russia, it wa she who really championed the idea of a small group of leaders taking control of the revolution, rather than the Marxist ideal of the workers on mass taking power.

Many people say 'well he was better than the Tsar' - I think people are missing the point here. The Tsar was gone, in prison somehwere when the Bolsheviks took power. They overthrew a democtaric government, the 'provisional government', which had multi-partys and organsied elections. It was by no means perfect, but it was never really given the chance to develop.

 

[CaptainF]

Uncle Joe was better.

UNCLE HO!!!!