Lenin

[Richard Cribb]

Good points, Davo.
It is indeed noteworthy that Lenin persecuted the non-Bolveshevik elements of the russian left(Mensheviks and Socialist Revolutionaries) more than the tzarist police.

I also think that Davo brings up something essential.
In my opinion Lenin (and Trotsky)wiped out most of the socialist elements in the Russian revolution and created a sort of state capitalism.

 

[Atropos]

I also think that Davo brings up something essential.
In my opinion Lenin (and Trotsky)wiped out most of the socialist elements in the Russian revolution and created a sort of state capitalism.

Certainly he seems to have had a particular animus against anarchists... (Cf. Victor Serge's memoirs).

I've heard you use the term "state capitalism" before though, and I'm curious: what do you view as capitalist about the USSR (disregarding the NEP, which Lenin viewed as a temporary measure)?

 

[nonconformist]

Certainly he seems to have had a particular animus against anarchists... (Cf. Victor Serge's memoirs).

I've heard you use the term "state capitalism" before though, and I'm curious: what do you view as capitalist about the USSR (disregarding the NEP, which Lenin viewed as a temporary measure)?

The transitionary period after the October revolution, and before War Communism.

 

[Richard Cribb]

I've heard you use the term "state capitalism" before though, and I'm curious: what do you view as capitalist about the USSR (disregarding the NEP, which Lenin viewed as a temporary measure)?

The essence of socialism is, as far as I can see, mastery of the over production by the producers. I can't see that being achieved ever in the USSR.
On the contrary, what the Bolsheviks did was to destroy anything that tended towards this, like the factory councils and the anarchist worker organisations while introducing capitalist management methods - Lenin was a great admirer of Taylorism.
For me, capitalism is a particular social relationship, that of wage labour. You have a mass of people who don't own their own means of production and are forced to sell their labour to those who do. This is what Bakunin called a contract constituting "a sort of voluntary and transitory serfdom".
This employment contract creates a a relationship of command and obedience between employer and worker, since anyone employed is in reality paid to obey. Therefore, in my opinion, in a modern industrialized society, as long as another group than the direct producers manage the means of productions, you have capitalism, either if this is a group of private property owners or a coordinating class that controls the state.
I also think that it is pretty clear that the USSR was driven by capitalist priorities, both in its economic outlook and its vision. And as others have noticed, Stalin reaped what Lenin sowed.

 

[Pyrite]

And the fact that the workers had no power within the state that was ultimately supposed to be "for" the workers (though how such a centralized system could be for labor is beyond me) immediately took steps to ensure the destruction of the soviets (the independant worker collectives and communes that were set up by peasants/industrial workers) by force. The fact is that the Bolsheviks wanted a change in WHO controlled power, and a change in the methods of that power, ultimately becoming more oppressive then their predecessors. However, the communists in russia hardly lived up to their namesake, and I think that any so called socialist revolution that has authoritarian tendencies will ultimately have the same fate. They focus on the output of capital, and not an increase in a standard of living, or an increase in the power of the masses (economic power, as communism is not necessarily a political system, since it believes that all political power must derive first from economic power) rather they decided to consolidate power collectively in the hands of the bureacratic state, making the collective entity reap the benefits of labor, therefore it is state capitalism.

 

[Commy]

Where is the option for "Lenin is just a crasy commie nutjob"?

 

[Atropos]

Care to venture a more... compelling argument?

 

[Leha]

Wee, man, you are something

 

[Commy]

Lenin was not crasy. He was good leader, although he was not so good as Stalin

 

[Leha]

Lenin was not crasy. He was good leader, although he was not so good as Stalin

O-O.

OK

 

[nonconformist]

Jesus Christ, not one of them

 

[Babbler]

Lenin was not crasy. He was good leader, although he was not so good as Stalin

Yes. Lenin wasn't as good as Stalin...

...at killing people.

 

[Atropos]

Lenin was not crasy. He was good leader, although he was not so good as Stalin

I must admit that I find your attitude on this issue very interesting. Perhaps you might explain a few of the admirable of Stalin's policies?

 

[7ronin]

Lenin was a great leader but a bad man. He wasn't as bad as Stalin and Beria or some of the later Soviet leaders but there is much blood on his hands.

 

[Kozmos]

Stalin was great man. He did lots of great things for the SSSR, sure he killed millions of people, but that was popular at the time.

Winner of the award in year 1939 and 1942.

 

[MjM]

All of them suck.
But so do most American presidents, you see. They dont kill millions though.

 

[ComradeDavo]

Lenin was not crasy. He was good leader, although he was not so good as Stalin

Have you read any of the point sthat have been made so far in this thread? As i've already said, i think leninw as far from being a good leader, and if you disagree then I would like to know why!

Lenin was a great leader but a bad man. He wasn't as bad as Stalin and Beria or some of the later Soviet leaders but there is much blood on his hands.

How was he a 'great leader' exactly? he overthrow a democratic government, alienated alot of the european left-wing and persecuted fellow 'communsits', even killing many who had been fundamental in getting him into power. He left Russia in a pretty bad state, sacrificed much of the crop lands in the east to the Germans whilst pissing off the west, he was in charge when the Russians suffered a terriable defeate at the hands of the Polish in 1920 and he failed spectuarlly in stopping Stalin, who he greatly dissaproved of, from becoming leader on his death.

 

[Atropos]

Stalin was great man. He did lots of great things for the SSSR, sure he killed millions of people, but that was popular at the time.

Winner of the award in year 1939 and 1942.

Would I be correct in supposing that you are not Russian?

I say this because you do not say where you believe Stalin to have been "popular." He was primarily "popular" among Western leftists. Among the Russian peasantry, which composed the majority of the population at the time, his name was anathema. As a popular jingle of the time went:

We have fulfilled the Five-Year Plan
And are eating well.
We have eaten the horses
And are chasing the dogs.

(Cf. Lynn Viola's recent work for attitudes towards the regime among the peasantry).

 

[Kozmos]

That's a crappy jingle. It doesnt jingle at all. Peasent schmeasents. I come from former Yugoslavia. As I said he killed millions of people(peasents included) but he did some great stuff as well.

 

[Atropos]

That's a crappy jingle. It doesnt jingle at all.

It works better in Russian

Peasent schmeasents. I come from former Yugoslavia. As I said he killed millions of people(peasents included) but he did some great stuff as well.

I'd ask you to elaborate, but this is the Lenin thread and we're already pretty far off topic.