Let's compare: Colosseum UB's

[Ralgar]

I prefer two extra health points. Happiness ist just not an issue anymore for me when I can build the colosseum (hereditary rule or spread religions and build temples).

 

[azzaman333]

Quick catapults and a high building on the same tech is really useful especially if you have Ivory since you can then also get catapults!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The dike is the only UB that I considered unbalanced. 1-tile island cities are next to useless to most civs except for the resources they provide, but having a dike in a 1 tile island city turns it into a decent source of production especially with forge/factory/power

Well I believe the dike needs a river, and secondly 1 tile Islands are very useful for everyone

That is a Domestic Overseas Trade Route, so every other city you have gets a +100% trade route with that 1 tile Island. With Lighthose it can grow fairly large too.. increasing the trade from it. and with only 1 city you get 0 colonial maintenance.

If possible its always nice to have 1-2 city Islands (at for a number of cities equal to the number of trade routes you have)

 

[Thalatta]

IMHO Garden is the best of the bunch.

Here's why:
1) By the time Colosseum comes around you've already got plenty of happiness resources to get past the initial limit on it - at least during peace time - due to Calendar, Monarchy and the other early/mid game happiness techs/options.
2) During war time Theatre is strictly better if you have Dye, plus it's cheaper.

I never build a Colosseum unless I get the quest or have intense war weariness. However, sometimes health is a problem around that time even if happiness isn't.

 

[Bast]

If you get the Colosseum quest as the Greeks, it's just heaven because Odeons give +1 giving you a total of +3 . Unhappiness? What's that?

 

[AfterShafter]

IMHO Garden is the best of the bunch.

Here's why:
1) By the time Colosseum comes around you've already got plenty of happiness resources to get past the initial limit on it - at least during peace time - due to Calendar, Monarchy and the other early/mid game happiness techs/options.
2) During war time Theatre is strictly better if you have Dye, plus it's cheaper.

I never build a Colosseum unless I get the quest or have intense war weariness. However, sometimes health is a problem around that time even if happiness isn't.

Well, as for 1 and 2, playing on Emperor I very often find myself having happiness problems at that point of the game... Why? Simply because there are a lot of games in which I can't nab enough happiness resources. Sometimes I'm not near the jungle, sometimes I have to expand at a distance to get half decent cities and upkeep costs stifle my early economy, preventing me from expanding more than a few cities, sometimes I am dealing with an early war and don't have time to research all those happiness goodies while catapults are a must...

Particularly as an expansive Civ like the Mayans, I find my growth very often far outstrips my ability to maintain happiness in my cities. For them, truth be told, I'd often rather take that +3 happiness to even the myriad benefits of the Odeon. Not to say it's better, just that there are times I'd rather have a ball court than an Odeon, and much rather have it than the Garden.

Just curious, what difficulty/map types do you usually play on? How many civs and what map size? Do you play unrestricted leaders? I usually play Big_and_small on huge, emperor, no unrestricted leaders, marathon, 15 players, and happiness can be a real problem if I don't nab my early religion. All of these factors, and simple luck, can have a huge effect on your happiness situation. Just playing Shaka on those settings last night I had happiness issues flying out my wazoo.

 

[KMadCandy]

Well I believe the dike needs a river, and secondly 1 tile Islands are very useful for everyone

nope, dikes can be built at cities that are on a coast or a river or both. dike is superspiffytastic.

 

[Quildavyr]

Odeons are strong.They fit well with pericles.


Dikes,Odeon,Garden are good things.But they are all useless in real life now.
Hammam is useful,even today
I will go to Hammam tomorrow.Tomorrow i will be more Healthy and Happy.

 

[Quagga]

Of these, my opinion is that the Ball Court is the best. Three happy faces in the early game makes a huge difference.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

nope, dikes can be built at cities that are on a coast or a river or both. dike is superspiffytastic.

Dikes definitely are (that word Kmad said not repeating it ), but to me well, well overpowered. Not just that all coastal Dutch cities, have 1 from all water tiles, a normal levee can only be built, if the city tile physically touches a river. Lots and lots of times, I've had to build a city 1 tile away from a river, but on a coast ( to take in better resources for example).

Normal civ, no levee. Dutch, dike, and the 6 or 7 river tiles also get an extra base ...add in forges, factories, power, org religion, and each extra is worth a least 2 extra .

I just won an easyish/huge map Space Race victory with the Maya (yeeh, I actually finished a game). In that game, I had 15 cities at the end, and 3 levees. If I'd been Dutch I could have had 12 dikes. That's a heck of a lot of extra per turn to play with....

BTW:- On Topic:- I got the Coll quest in that game, and all Ball Courts were +4...which was huge in a limited resource/few cities (but great ones) game.....

 

[Antilogic]

I thought the Dutch UB was somewhat overpowered...I'll play a game with them soon and test it. I haven't played as the Dutch yet.

I remember having a thread like this that compared the Byzantine and Greek UBs...it seems like they were designed to replace different buildings: the Greek UB seems like it should be a theatre replacement, and the Byzantine UB seems like a Colosseum replacement. Then, for some inexplicable reason, switch them. If you look at the Greek UB as a theatre replacement, +1 base happiness and +1 happiness from hit singles (and adjust the +1 happiness per 20% culture to 10%) seems more in line with typical Civ UB bonuses. And the Byzantine UB looks more like a typical UB instead of some weird no-artist penalty for the UB.

 

[obliterate]

I see what you mean, Antilogic. It would make more sense that way.

 

[GenocideBringer]

Gardens are awesome. It's easy by that point to deal with unhappiness. However, once you get into the industrial era, health becomes a big issue.

 

[kakitadairu]

The Odeon's not really all that good. I mean, first of all, you might as well forget about the extra happiness from hit singles, because that happens soooo late in the game. +3 culture is nice, but it's hardly unbalanced. and 2 artists? Why on earth would you want to run artists? Give me scientists and engineers any day.

Artists and Merchants are by far the two most useful and important types of specialists. Merchants let you run at 100% Research, and Artists provide +4 culture (+6 with Sistine Chapel) each, which is the easiest way to get a ton of culture other than culture slider. Culture is invaluable in cities with close borders.

Spy specialists are okay if you are going for espionage but I generally don't... just not useful enough.

Engineer specialists are occasionally useful.

Scientists and Priests are the worst. The only reason to run science specialists is to generate a Great Scientist for Academy. The only reason for Priest Specialist is Great Prophet, which is very dubious.

Cheers,

Dai

 

[dragodon64]

If you are not the first to a wonder technology, engineers can save your but. Running merchants for SE is nearly identical to running scientists except for the GPP generated. Priests have a one time use. Culture for me comes naturally (lots of temples, libraries, etc. not creative) so artists are a non-factor but a lot of wonders generate GA points. I have never generated a spy but the one that comes from Communism.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Artists and Merchants are by far the two most useful and important types of specialists. Merchants let you run at 100% Research, and Artists provide +4 culture (+6 with Sistine Chapel) each, which is the easiest way to get a ton of culture other than culture slider. Culture is invaluable in cities with close borders.

Spy specialists are okay if you are going for espionage but I generally don't... just not useful enough.

Engineer specialists are occasionally useful.

Scientists and Priests are the worst. The only reason to run science specialists is to generate a Great Scientist for Academy. The only reason for Priest Specialist is Great Prophet, which is very dubious.

Cheers,

Dai

I think you need to pay more attention to the number of beakers you are producing, and less to the science slider. Also, the superiority of Great Scientists in most cases cannot be understated. Generally, they are the best great person. Great Artists are rarely useful unless you are pursuing a culture win...

 

[Pikkis]

However the Bablonian UU is good.

I don't think it's good compared to Skirmisher, at least in single player, because:

Defending a city/hill/forest/jungle against a Melee unit:
Bowman (no fortify): 3*(1,00+0,50+0,50)=6,00 (+1fs)
Bowman (25% fortify): 3*(1,00+0,50+0,50+0,25)=6,75 (+1fs)
Skirmisher (no fortify): 4*(1,00+0,50)=6,00 (+1-2fs)
Skirmisher (25% fortify): 4*(1,00+0,50+0,25)=7,00 (+1-2fs)

Defending a city on hill against a Melee unit:
Bowman (no fortify): 3*(1,00+0,50+0,50+0,50)=7,50 (+1fs)
Bowman (25% fortify): 3*(1,00+0,50+0,50+0,50+0,25)=8,25 (+1fs)
Skirmisher (no fortify): 4*(1,00+0,50+0,50)=8,00 (+1-2fs)
Skirmisher (25% fortify): 4*(1,00+0,50+0,50+0,25)=9,00 (+1-2fs)

Defending on field against a Melee unit:
Bowman (no fortify): 3*(1,00+0,50)=4,50 (+1fs), not enough against an Axeman or a Swordsman
Bowman (25% fortify): 3*(1,00+0,50+0,25)=5,25 (+1fs), not enough against a Swordsman
Skirmisher (no fortify): 4*(1,00)=4,00 (+1-2fs), not enough against an Axeman or a Swordsman
Skirmisher (25% fortify): 4*(1,00+0,25)=5,00 (+1-2fs), not enough against a Swordsman

So in short, Bowmen are better than Skirmisher only when defending on field against a Melee unit or when attacking against a Melee unit, but these many times lead to Bowman's death still.

Note: I haven't seen many AI CR2/CR3-promoted Melee units, so these numbers are against Combat-promoted Melee units (Combats effect the unit that has them, while City Raiders effect the defender as a minus).

Also, promotions effect higher base strength better (when defending).

The Odeon's not really all that good. I mean, first of all, you might as well forget about the extra happiness from hit singles, because that happens soooo late in the game. +3 culture is nice, but it's hardly unbalanced. and 2 artists? Why on earth would you want to run artists? Give me scientists and engineers any day.

When I'm running Representation and have built Academies in my main research cities, I usually like Artists more than Scientists. 4 research and 4 culture beats 6 research in my opinion. I like cultural victories very much though.

The only reason for Priest Specialist is Great Prophet, which is very dubious.

Not true. With Angkor Wat, Priests give 2 hammers and 1 gold, which makes getting Great Engineers and rush-wonders only reason to assign an Engineer if you can assign a Priest, and settled Great Prophets are just great, while not as great as settled Great Merchants. I would still leave Angkor Wat and run other specialists than Engineers and Priests.

 

[Antilogic]

If I had to rate the specialists, I would rank them into three tiers according to usefulness like this:

1st: Scientists, Engineers
2nd: Merchants, Artists
3rd: Priests, Spies

I don't build the Angkor Wat every game, so Priests have limited utility for me. If I found a religion, they build a shrine. Past that, they are only used for Golden Ages. I really haven't maximized my espionage skills yet, so at the moment I rate great spies lower on the list (that may move up as I experiment more with the espionage). The Scientists' Academy/tech-popping along the road to Liberalism, etc. are incredibly useful, as is the instant-Wonder from Engineers. Maybe I value that more because I am a warmonger, and thus don't build as many wonders each game. Merchants take second place to the Scientists and Engineers not because they are not useful (I still love the extra money), but because that ability is not as useful as the Scientist/Engineer bonus; I also like to attach them in cities for the +1 food option. I also threw artists into the second tier because of the limited science they generate, my use for them in captured border cities (I'll build a theatre and run artists to try and generate culture more quickly), and the culture bomb.

In general, I am very willing to use the second and third tier guys for a Golden Age. The chance that I will attach a great scientist or a great engineer to a city or use them for a golden age is virtually nil unless I literally have so many that I don't want another instant wonder or I don't need any more academies. That rarely happens.


That's my run-down of the specialists. Feel free to pick that apart...in a different, thread, hopefully (this is the colosseum UB thread). To go back to the topic, the Babylonian UB's health bonus does seem slightly more important given the extra buildings that cause unhealthiness in the game now.

 

[kniteowl]

Dike overpowered? when you combine with the Leader Traits and UU, they deserve a some what overpowered UB, as the UU is situational and the traits may scream out Rexing but after initial expansion... not much going there and besides the UB comes quite late in the game but still interesting, I'll have to try out the dutch some time.

 

[KMadCandy]

I think you need to pay more attention to the number of beakers you are producing, and less to the science slider.

i think that statement applies to a lot of people. whether i can keep up/have a tech advantage over the other guys isn't a matter of whose slider is higher, it's a matter of who has more beakers coming in (which can include lightbulbs/trades). i see a "60% rule" quoted a lot but that's not the whole picture.

The only reason for Priest Specialist is Great Prophet, which is very dubious.

i'm a big fan of angkor wat in BtS. if i have the AP bonus, i'll be building a temple in every city basically, that gives me 2 free hammers right there soon as it's whipped. if i have SoL or am running merc the free spec can be a priest when that's done, there's another 2 free hammers and a gold in even teensy new cities. even if i'm not running rep that's awesome . those new cities aren't likely to be generating great people so my goal is to use the type of spec that'll get them up and running fastest.